Plant Parenthood.
Yes. She has no choice.Originally Posted by SassyLady
The Queens speech is a purely ceremonial event in which the executive states it’s intentions, through the Queen.
If there was a general election and a Remain government was formed then the Queen would be stood in the same spot declaring her first priority would be to stop Brexit.
(Not that you would know that from the video published by ‘Gateway Pundit’ which was completely misleading.)
Last edited by Noir; 10-17-2019 at 02:42 AM.
If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.
Thatcherite Minion
Sorry to disappoint you, NightTrain, but I have to (- basically -) endorse what Noir's telling you on this. The Queen doesn't have the power you've thought she might have had.
What highly limited power she would have / can ever have, would be grounded entirely in procedural application. Her duties are very clearly and rigidly defined. She cannot be seen to be exercising personal latitude with any of them: her mandatory duty to be overtly politically neutral is, I believe, absolute.
The Queen does not run our Government. She cannot. What duties she appears to have could be fairly described as 'ceremonial', albeit grounded also in law.
It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!
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Plant Parenthood.
Well the words coming out of the Brexit supporters (all unionists) at my workplace this morning were of betrayal, and ‘this isn’t what I voted for’ etc regarding an Irish Sea border. It’s not even clear if such a border would be legal by the UKs own laws, but hey-ho.
That system being Parliamentary democracy?
If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.
Thatcherite Minion
This looks great.https://order-order.com/2019/10/16/h...xit-delivered/
The biggest poll since the referendum itself, conducted for ITN by ComRes with 26,000 Britons, conclusively shows the public want Brexit sorted, with 54% of respondents saying we should support abiding by the referendum result and leave the EU. Even greater than the original 52:48 split…When ‘don’t knows’ are included, leaving still has a majority, with 50% wanting to leave (30% with a deal and 20% with no deal) versus only 42% wanting to remain. The Brexit train rolls on…
I've learned, though, to take polls with a hefty pinch of salt. Theresa May believed polls when they told her that if she called an election, she could significantly improve on the slim majority she then had in Parliament. She held her election, and saw it wiped out !
I could give you other UK-based examples of political disasters that rode on the back of trust in polls.
I am reasonably confident of one thing. Labour's shenanigans do not command the public support that Corbyn believes they do ... SOME support, maybe, though nothing like as great as he himself believes. I think he's on course for one massive political humiliation when we have our next election.
It may be so massive a humiliation as to threaten Labour's very viability as a political Party.
I'm looking forward to all this with great satisfaction !!
Thatcherite Minion
Heh heh. You're not 'a happy bunny', are you, Noir, this sunny afternoon ? Can't say I'm surpised.
It's not ideal. In fact, it's far from ideal. I'd go along with you on that.
In reply, I'd just have to ask you what YOUR political solution to all this would've been !! After all, the 'backstop' was more trouble than it was worth .. even being in prospect as being used by the EU, in future, to stop a complete Brexit !
So, it was stopped in Parliament (multiples of times) and has now been junked.
What's your answer, then ? I'd be willing to bet that you don't have one. And in the absence of one, tell me, why do you insist upon being so negative when other, better minds than yours or mine, have come up with one, in the shape of this new 'deal' ?
Let me tell you.
Regardless of any other answer you might offer, your chief motivation is a Leftie one ... you want Boris humiliated, you want him discredited ... and for a Leftie victory to come of that.
Unfortunately for you, this UK-EU deal knocks back your ambition in that regard.
If Labour (and all of the opposition the Conservatives have encountered, in the Commons) have proved anything, it's that our system of Parliamentary democracy is open to vandalism.That system being Parliamentary democracy?
This is no more the fault of the system, than is the persistence of criminal activity in societies across the world. Labour wants damage, stagnation, dysfunctionality, and it'll continue to want it until THEIR ambitions near fruition. [Then, suddenly, if they were met with comparable opposition, they'd be outraged by it .....]
Here's the point. Years ago, votes passed in the Commons paved the way (supposedly !!) for the Commons to RESPECT and HEED the outcome of the 2016 Referendum. There was the fact of the Referendum in the first place, sanctioned by Parliament.
Following its outcome, we had the Article 50 step ... where it was necessary to invoke it, according to EU rules and procedures, in order to commence the Brexit process. This was sanctioned by Parliament.
But, where are we, now ? Where we are, is seeing individual, self-serving agendas take over, with total dysfunctionality following. THE FAULT OF OUR TROUBLES IS THE DIVERGENCE FROM RATIFYING THE PROCESS OF BREXIT, TOWARDS SOMETHING INFINITELY LESS RESPECTFUL OF THE BRITISH PUBLIC.
Forget any thoughts you have of 'the system' being at fault. Its functionality has been corrupted by self-serving opportunists who refuse to respect or serve the national interest.
Vandalism is vandalism. That's the beginning and 'end' of our troubles.
Labour will, of course, continue to vandalise. There's no propect of Labour agreeing this new deal. They must be hopping mad, to see the chance of Boris humiliated into sending his 'We need an extension beyond October' letter pass them by, at least for now.
But, they'll press on .. vandalising all the more. I guarantee it.
Tell me I'm wrong, @Noir ......
Last edited by Drummond; 10-17-2019 at 07:21 AM.
Plant Parenthood.
I don’t think Boris could be humiliated any more than he already has the past few weeks.
Personally I don’t think any good options are left, Another general election may be the best of all outcomes, but that itself is shoddy, and likely just to cause more problems on both sides.
Though I think it’s pretty clear that the government proposing a deal that they themselves have legislated against is not the way forward, though apparently it’s the best they can come up with.
If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.
Thatcherite Minion
He's been true to his word, true to the democratically-expressed Will of the People. What makes you think that his sense of 'humiliation' is at all acute ?
Sure, he could've wished for a smoother Premiership. But, Boris is up for these battles. We've seen that, in his various Commons appearances. But don't kid yourself .. Boris's so-called 'humiliation' will be as nothing ... compared to what Corbyn and his ilk are in for, in the not too distant future.
I'm sure that Corbyn himself is blind to that, which will make his ultimate humiliation that much greater, when it happens.
EXACTLY. Which means but one thing: Boris has done the best that he could've hoped to do.Personally I don’t think any good options are left
No doubt ... and I'm sure Corbyn will have more descriptive words than 'shoddy', once the general Public makes plain to him what they think of his shenanigans !!Another general election may be the best of all outcomes, but that itself is shoddy, and likely just to cause more problems on both sides.
As I said, Boris has done the best he could have done. I remind you (if you need to be reminded ?) of just how disgustingly, disreputably obstructive the EU has been, throughout.Though I think it’s pretty clear that the government proposing a deal that they themselves have legislated against is not the way forward, though apparently it’s the best they can come up with.
But then ... that was always their plan. How could it have been in their interest to make Brexit a smooth, easy process ?? They'd badly need to dissuade other Member States from ever following the UK's example.
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Super Minion
Now then, will this get done? If it doesn't, then will it just be a break off? Will Parliament be able to stop the ultimate finish for Brexit?
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
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Thatcherite Minion
I've been trying to answer that. It's POSSIBLE that, finally, this'll all get done. It is unlikely, though.
Assuming the 27 EU States agree (this is almost certain), then, the UK Parliament will need to vote to ratify the deal.
The LibDems won't vote for it (or any deal, or anything at all which permits Brexit).
The DUP don't like the deal. As of right now, their final decision isn't known .. they might realise that they can't expect a deal to ever emerge that'll be to their liking. If they stick to their principles, they will vote against it.
Boris is short of a majority, now substantially so. I think his shortfall is 21 MP's. He may yet have more rebels who'll resist the deal.
Labour will find excuses to reject it ... from 'It doesn't meet our red line demands' .. to .. 'Any deal must be ratified by a Peoples' Vote' (i.e, they'll insist on a second Referendum before backing it. This will require an extension (surprise, surprise !). Labour's initial rejection is guaranteed, because they want Boris humiliated before election time (as, you'll note, Noir is fixated upon ..).
Put all the 'NO' votes together, and I think Boris will lose, and we'll be no further forward. Labour will then try to take charge, insisting on a Referendum (or an election), demanding the further extension beyond October.
In such a case ... I'm thinking that, after all the intensive talks there have been, the EU will be inclined to say 'no' to an extension. They'll be too fed up with the dysfunctionality on the UK side to grant anything. They'll also claim that nothing better can possibly be offered to us, therefore, no extension would serve any purpose.
Then again ... they might grant one. It's possible ... because .... they might yet hope for the collapse of Brexit entirely, as a product of Labour's vandalism. In such a circumstance, they'd wait for a vote from the general Public, one reversing the 2016 Referendum.
Plant Parenthood.
It’s quite impressive that Johnson and his team have come up with a deal which is almost identical to the one proposed by May (which Johnson et all voted against) except for a few distinctions such as a Irish Sea border, which guarantees him the loss of his only other party support (the DUP) in the House.
The Irish Sea Border is also in defiance of the Rees-Mogg amendment to the Taxation act (article 55) which was championed an put into law by Rees-Mogg, Johnson, and other member of the ERG to stop exactly this kind of deal happening.
Last edited by Noir; 10-17-2019 at 12:09 PM.
If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.
Thatcherite Minion
As I said, the deal is not ideal, not by a long shot.
But be honest, Noir. Do you really think Boris had any chance of arranging a deal better than the one he's got ?
The DUP, naturally, won't like a deal which treats Northern Ireland differently to the rest of the UK. Their opposition to Boris's deal wasn't, therefore, hard to foresee. Then again ... they refused to back Theresa May's deal, too ... so in that sense, I'm not sure that anything's been 'lost' in all this. Yes, Boris would've wanted their backing, but their lack of one is no surprise. Their expectations were always in excess of anything the EU was willing to permit them.
The whole 'border in the Irish Sea' issue amounts to a concession to Brussels. To get Brussels to budge on anything, concessions had to be given. In return, at least the EU has itself budged in ways it said it never would. It said for a long time that the original deal would not be reconsidered. It said that the backstop HAD to remain. Boris has managed to get reversals from the EU on both of those pledges ... no mean feat.
But, yes, it's come at a cost. That's undeniable.
Now .. will Labour acknowledge the ground given, in an effort to find an equitable solution ?? Will they acknowledge, and appreciate, all the work that's gone into trying to deliver a deal which THEY insist HAD to be delivered ???
LIKE HELL THEY WILL.
They'll just tear it to shreds.
Fact is that, though they SAY they want a deal, they WILL ALWAYS OPPOSE ONE.
Be honest, Noir, and admit that to be true.
Labour are vandals. They are wreckers. I don't think they'll ever stop being that, in opposition .. even an abject humiliation in an election might teach them nothing.
Nothing short of Governmental power will put an end to their dysfunctional ways.
They are trash.
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Super Minion
So, if eu doesn’t grant an extension, will that mean the hard exit or whatever it’s called?
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
Senior Member
Yeah says me, someone who is not ignorant of British politics
Psst , some people in no way limit their ignorance to British politics
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Thatcherite Minion
That IS the default position. This can only go one of two ways: an extension is granted, or, we leave by 31st October.
With Parliament failing to ratify the latest deal, should that happen, then it'd be up to the EU as to what it's prepared to do (such is our enslavement to EU law, as a member, that the EU has always had the upper hand in that sense). The EU could decide that it's gone as far as it possibly can in supplying a deal. In that case, they could say there's no point in granting any extension. Or, they could say that they'll just wait for our Parliament to give up its dysfunctionality, and ratify it.
Without hope of ratification being evident .. I think they'll just refuse to grant an extension .. so, if we've not ratified by Halloween, we crash out.
If Labour stops its vandalism, and reconsiders its position, AND the EU believes they may .. then, I believe that we'd get a small extension, if needed. [Though ... Boris has always said he'd never agree to one willingly.]
But, I don't think Labour will ever be constructive enough to reconsider. They'll just go on insisting that 'no deal' is not an option, simultaneously refusing (insanely and vandalistically) to ever agree one !! In order to fend off accusations of being undemocratic, they'll push for another Referendum. Or agree an election. And expect the EU to wait around to witness the outcome of either.
In reality, though, and outside of Labour's delusional state ... I think this is 'make or break' time. The EU expects this latest deal to be ratified. If it isn't .. game over, and we crash out.
That's my belief. But, as I say, the final decision lies with the EU. I think that Labour's arrogance fails to permit them the understanding that the EU's patience is wearing thin. Short of Labour somehow finding a way of showing them they can derail Brexit entirely, they'll say 'game over', and we will leave on the due date.
Last edited by Drummond; 10-17-2019 at 02:42 PM.
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Super Minion
Is not the deal better than crashing out? Won’t the people punish Parliament for that?
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
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