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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    As a wiser woman would say, 'When someone attacks you repeatedly, hit back twice as hard.'
    How Trumpian of you!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    You could begin where how you came to the conclusion that it is my contention that... how did you put it...

    "... let the young go back to work, if they get sick kick an older, worthless person off the ventilator..."

    I'm baffled as how you extrapolated that from what I said. Perhaps you could explain...
    Forsaking permission of patient or family would be in line with getting people back to work even at the cost of deaths of vulnerable. If going to that level, one must assume an agreement with survival of the most productive, thus saving the resources for the young.

    Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your reasoning for going with letting those folks die, without agreement regarding extraordinary means.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    Here's the way I see it, simply from a truly pragmatic view point... a person dying, is a person dying, and if they've succumbed, many people have DNR orders when they're knocking on death's door, my father was one of them. Then add into the equation that they're highly infectious and that touching them without the proper protection will infect you as well, in this case a care giver, nurse, doctor, whoever. The dying person can't save anyone, not even them self, but the caregiver/nurse/doctor can, so long as they don't become infected and die themselves.

    I don't hold any caregiver at fault in this situation. It's not their fault they don't have masks, gloves, or even respirators, it's the systems, and I don't blame them for not doing CPR if it meant a possible death sentence for them as well. If I catch this crap, and I'm on my last breath, if someone has to risk being infected because of no proper protection to attempt CPR, no, just let me die, that's my fate. Don't kill yourself to save me if you living means you can help other people.

    That's about the way I see it, and it's just my opinion. Apparently this is a touchy subject and there's differing opinions. I'm just stating mine and not trying to make anyone mad. You're as free to your opinion as I am to mine.
    If the doctor or nurse let’s the old guy go, and moves on to the next (younger) virus patient without safety gear, they have the same risk of infection. Hence my comment before, why not just leave them all at the curb. It is not a shortage of safety gear that is driving the death panel discussions. It is possibly an upcoming shortage of ventilators or hospital availability in general.

    And from my understanding, you don’t get this virus by touching someone. And hospital CPR is not generally mouth to mouth, so is there any more danger to resuscitation than with any medical procedure?

    Do you think it is possible that very subconsciously, you aren’t too worried because you don’t have any risk factors?

    I would sign a DNR for the usual reasons (brain dead, e.g.) but not for something I could potentially survive and live normally afterwards. Screw that.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Forsaking permission of patient or family would be in line with getting people back to work even at the cost of deaths of vulnerable. If going to that level, one must assume an agreement with survival of the most productive, thus saving the resources for the young.

    Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your reasoning for going with letting those folks die, without agreement regarding extraordinary means.
    Well... I didn't think I addressed that issue. I was trying to be specific about the lack of personal protection for caregivers, and how I felt about them possibly condemning themselves to a death sentence to resuscitate someone. I could go over it all again but, there shouldn't be a need to be redundant.

    The issue you stated above is an even more grave one I think. Something I'm not sure I know enough about to render an opinion, other than, what is the tipping point where we either all get back to work, or some of us get back to work, or none of us and just let our nation entirely implode? What do we do? Hard question to answer far as I'm concerned, but that time is coming, quick.

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey View Post
    If the doctor or nurse let’s the old guy go, and moves on to the next virus patient without safety gear, they have the same risk of infection. Hence my comment before, why not just leave them all at the curb. It is not a shortage of safety gear that is driving the death panel discussions. It is possibly an upcoming shortage of ventilators or hospital availability in general.

    And from my understanding, you don’t get this virus by touching someone. And hospital CPR is not generally mouth to mouth, so is there any more danger to resuscitation as they any medical procedure?

    Do you think it is possible that very subconsciously, you aren’t too worried because you don’t have any risk factors?

    I would sign a DNR for the usual reasons (brain dead, e.g.) but not for something I could potentially survive and live normally afterwards. Screw that.
    Well, I'm not discriminating by age. I'm referring to DNR for anyone, young, old, in between.

    But you do have a point and I get it. If caregivers in a hospital don't have masks or gloves, then what are they doing coming in contact with ANYONE that's infected, for any reason, feed them, resuscitate them, whatever? You shouldn't even be there if you don't have the proper protection.

    But yes, you can catch it from touching an infected person. You can catch it from touching something that an infected person touched. Contact surfaces is the #2 way the virus is spread.
    Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 03-26-2020 at 02:36 PM.

  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FakeNewsSux View Post
    ** Removed video from quote** -Jim (thread croaked here)
    Thanks for the clip. It’s not as bad as the news made it sound, keeping the dorms open for apparently stranded foreign students. But I think they should still close the library and labs that are still open.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

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  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    Well, I'm not discriminating by age. I'm referring to DNR for anyone, young, old, in between.

    But you do have a point and I get it. If caregivers in a hospital don't have masks or gloves, then what are they doing coming in contact with ANYONE that's infected, for any reason, feed them, resuscitate them, whatever? You shouldn't even be there if you don't have the proper protection.

    But yes, you can catch it from touching an infected person. You can catch it from touching something that an infected person touched. Contact surfaces is the #2 way the virus is spread.
    I’m far from an expert, but I think it’s where you put your hands after you touch it that matters, right? If you touch, then wash before you touch your mouth, nose, I think you should be ok.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

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  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    Well... I didn't think I addressed that issue. I was trying to be specific about the lack of personal protection for caregivers, and how I felt about them possibly condemning themselves to a death sentence to resuscitate someone. I could go over it all again but, there shouldn't be a need to be redundant.

    The issue you stated above is an even more grave one I think. Something I'm not sure I know enough about to render an opinion, other than, what is the tipping point where we either all get back to work, or some of us get back to work, or none of us and just let our nation entirely implode? What do we do? Hard question to answer far as I'm concerned, but that time is coming, quick.
    If having the proper equipment available is the issue, than this conversation really is just a waste of time.

    I thought the point that Abbey was making, which has been in the news for at least a few days, longer if one pays attention to Italy and other countries running ahead of us. The point being that doctors in Italy by circumstances-as they are locked down and staying shut-are forced by sheer numbers to make choices on who gets ventilators and even beds. Over a week ago some hospitals were refusing admission to anyone over 60, regardless of how sick.

    Now we have the President getting antsy about the economy, for good reasons. However, he has even indirectly addressed the issue of the vulnerable, the cure shouldn't be worse than the problem. Dead older, weaker folks cannot be the chief concern. Younger, stronger people might get depressed and off themselves. That would be bad, very bad.

    So, prioritizing resources may well necessitate kicking an older person off the ventilator or even just send them home with some well wishes and hopes. The young who are temporarily ill, need them. Odds are much better for and with them.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



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  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by High_Plains_Drifter View Post
    Well, I'm not discriminating by age. I'm referring to DNR for anyone, young, old, in between.

    But you do have a point and I get it. If caregivers in a hospital don't have masks or gloves, then what are they doing coming in contact with ANYONE that's infected, for any reason, feed them, resuscitate them, whatever? You shouldn't even be there if you don't have the proper protection.

    But yes, you can catch it from touching an infected person. You can catch it from touching something that an infected person touched. Contact surfaces is the #2 way the virus is spread.
    Not an expert, but I think it’s what you do after touching someone that counts. If you wash your hands before touching your own face, you are probably ok. It doesn’t enter through your skin, right?
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

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  14. #40
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    Abbey, what did you think of the Falwell interview?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey View Post
    Thanks for the clip. It’s not as bad as the news made it sound, keeping the dorms open for apparently stranded foreign students. But I think they should still close the library and labs that are still open.
    I had to edit out the 'quote' of yours, which was the video that FNS posted. It didn't like the quote for some reason and I had to work some magic just to be able to edit the post!

    All good now though, and the original video in his post is just fine!
    “A person who has never owned a dog has missed a wonderful part of life.”Bob Barker
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  16. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FakeNewsSux View Post
    Abbey, what did you think of the Falwell interview?
    I tried to post about it, but something about me quoting the video broke the thread. I think Jim has since fixed it.

    I’ll try to reconstruct:

    Thank you for the video. It sounds a lot better at Liberty than the news made it out to be if it’s just foreign students who truly have no where else to go. But I think they shouldn’t have the library open for students to go there, or any labs. All should be strictly online. And office hours shouldn’t be at all, not just voluntary.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    I had to edit out the 'quote' of yours, which was the video that FNS posted. It didn't like the quote for some reason and I had to work some magic just to be able to edit the post!

    All good now though, and the original video in his post is just fine!
    Thanks! I was trying to just delete the post like normal, but couldn’t find a way.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey View Post
    I tried to post about it, but something about me quoting the video broke the thread. I think Jim has since fixed it.

    I’ll try to reconstruct:

    Thank you for the video. It sounds a lot better at Liberty than the news made it out to be if the foreign students truly have no where else to go. But I think they shouldn’t have the library open for students to go there, or any labs. All should be strictly online. And office hours shouldn’t be at all, not just voluntary.
    From what I gather from other interviews with Falwell, all Office visits are done online during posted Office hours. I'm not sure how you do labs online without fully equipped labs being set up in each individual dorm room or off campus apartment. I agree on the library since nearly all research books, papers, journals either are or should be available online.

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    The moral collapse of a civilization. A once in a lifetime event.
    My quota of bullshit cop outs from closed minds is full today, Tomorrow's not looking good for you either.

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