Bloody Civil war

[Evmetro]

i'd agree with most of that.
But you're pretty much a victim if the law enforcers of the land can have a knee on your neck for nine minutes until you're dead while other cops and bystanders watch as you die.
Then many good folks are more upset at the REACTION than the gov't murder.

most black people don't want a war... just cops and gov't we can trust not be bullies and murders.
And fellow citizens that can acknowledge the problems and help fix them.

but that's "Hating America!" to some so
I guess we'll just do the dance forever.

I can't see any plausible path that could justify the knee on the neck for that long , if at all. As far as being a victim though, did Floyd ever have an option to simply comply with whatever the cop wanted him to do? From what I saw on the video, he was certainly a victim of violent and horrific injustice, but I have not looked into it enough to know if he ever had an option to simply comply to avoid the risks involved with non compliance.

[Evmetro]

and here we go.
look I'll reply to all your ...questions?
But i have to ask.
do you guys really think that's who I am?
Someone who condones riots, looting and violence?
To promote a political end.

Wow, this is spot on! Way to plow through political bullshit!

[SassyLady]

I don't see a bloody civil war coming. I do see a lot of division coming and MSM and social media are stoking the fire.

[revelarts]

I didn’t, I don’t, but your post that I quoted made me respond. You said people are more upset at the reaction than the murder. That makes it sound like you are upset with anyone who is speaking out angrily about the looting, etc.

I’m not even sure politics is at the root anymore, beyond the Antifa stuff. I feel like people are going crazy, and my fear is that white reaction to the looting will raise the beast.

Yes, I said MORE upset.
I did not say people should not be upset. And don't see how my words imply that either.
Seems like folks assumed that I embraced riots or condone violence.

"Rev, is looting and burning things down and threatening the WH your idea of how to accomplish these goals?... "
"Would just let the Justice System work as designed. Outsiders, and intent trouble-makers perpetuated the anger, and generated the LAWLESSNESS. ...
..."There have been several deaths from these riots the past few days. It will be interesting to see how much people care about them. .."

all 3 comments assume I'm promoting riots, And/Or AGAIN they show emotional outrage over riots. And ZERO reply to the rest of my statement.
as i said, MORE concern over riots.


one issue I have is I can't figure out why people automatically start taking sides. and waiting for more conflict. Rather trying to come up with or work toward fixing problems
with Murderous POLICE and Violent reactionaries. And BS divide and conquer politicians "activist" and media.

As I said Initially. MOST Black whites Latinos everyone really just want to live in peace.
The question is America so small that antifa, anarchist, Neo-Nazis and fringe violent black groups and the MSM can make us "crazy"?
I hope not.

The sad thing is I feel like many on the right see riots and assume ALL black or even MOST blacks agree with it.
Not even close, most of us do "understand it" but still think it's stupid, counter productive and criminal. AND HAVE SAID SO.
But the knee jerk reaction of the many on the right seems to be that, we should address the riot problem can and safely ignore the police problem... and again imagine that there's was never a problem.

[revelarts]

Attachment 12653

for what it's worth 2 points to consider. (or ignore)

1. white gov't authorized city police murderer = random civilian black murderer?
They are the same?

2. Do nothing?
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...407#post717407

[Evmetro]

Yes, I said MORE upset.
I did not say people should not be upset. And don't see how my words imply that either.
Seems like folks assumed that I embraced riots or condone violence.



all 3 comments assume I'm promoting riots, And/Or AGAIN they show emotional outrage over riots. And ZERO reply to the rest of my statement.
as i said, MORE concern over riots.


one issue I have is I can't figure out why people automatically start taking sides. and waiting for more conflict. Rather trying to come up with or work toward fixing problems
with Murderous POLICE and Violent reactionaries. And BS divide and conquer politicians "activist" and media.

As I said Initially. MOST Black whites Latinos everyone really just want to live in peace.
The question is America so small that antifa, anarchist, Neo-Nazis and fringe violent black groups and the MSM can make us "crazy"?
I hope not.

The sad thing is I feel like many on the right see riots and assume ALL black or even MOST blacks agree with it.
Not even close, most of us do "understand it" but still think it's stupid, counter productive and criminal. AND HAVE SAID SO.
But the knee jerk reaction of the many on the right seems to be that, we should address the riot problem can and safely ignore the police problem... and again imagine that there's was never a problem.

I am interested in gaining a more objective understanding what problem the police are, and I am interested in understanding from the perspective of those who see the police as a problem. I have sorted through political propaganda from all bias positions, but am still having difficulty seeing the scale of the police problem from the opposing perspective. Your posts are fascinating, but I don't always understand them. You make some fantastic points.

[SassyLady]

for what it's worth 2 points to consider. (or ignore)

1. white gov't authorized city police murderer = random civilian black murderer?
They are the same?

2. Do nothing?
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...407#post717407

Rev, speaking for myself ..... I don't understand why the rioting now. Why not when the video of the father son killing the black jogger came out? Why not after a weekend of murders in Chicago where black on black killings is so high? Why this particular murder?

[Evmetro]

I don't see a bloody civil war coming. I do see a lot of division coming and MSM and social media are stoking the fire.

I sure hope you are correct, and I certainly agree that we will likely see even more division coming. I don't know how much more division we can have without igniting the violent bloody war. Hopefully more than I suspect.

[revelarts]

Rev, speaking for myself ..... I don't understand why the rioting now. Why not when the video of the father son killing the black jogger came out? ...Why this particular murder?

here's the thing Sassy, people don't riot over MOST of the apparently unjustified abuses and killings by police.
If you'd go to sites like COP Watch you'd see a stream of police abuses toward black white brown yellow dog and cats. going back months years from around the country.
No riots.
who knows why this particular murder broke the camels back.
I'm more surprised that in the past some incidents ...where the facts are sketchy... become points of outrage. There are enough clear ones, similar ... if not as blatant as the floyd murder.
like handcuffed black man in the back seat of cop car "commits suicide" according to the police. Homeless whiteman in desert shot dead by LEO, camera shows man compliant and non-threating. black man in wheelchair on the sidewalk shoved out of chair by a cop, etc etc...

why this indecent I have no Idea.

... Why not after a weekend of murders in Chicago where black on black killings is so high?...

as far as how people react to black on black crime please see link i posted above
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...407#post717407


and to be be clear. I'm not sure why people seem to think that civilian black kids killing other civilian black kids is THE SAME as LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS killing innocent people.

Do you really think that's it's the same?

One group are primarily frankly stupid misguided kids,
while the others are trained LEOs who are paid by the gov't to "protect and serve".
The exact OPPOSITE of killing innocent people. Or hurting people who are compliant and/or already in custody.

so yes by default people see the killings differently.
Both are TRAGIC and HORRIBLE but one is an attack/abuse by gov't officials.
The others are stupid crimes by some bad kids and scumbag criminals doing what they do.

BTW 85% of white killings are done by other white people.
White on White crime.

[revelarts]

I am interested in gaining a more objective understanding what problem the police are, and I am interested in understanding from the perspective of those who see the police as a problem. I have sorted through political propaganda from all bias positions, but am still having difficulty seeing the scale of the police problem from the opposing perspective. Your posts are fascinating, but I don't always understand them. You make some fantastic points.

thanks,
and briefly IMO, perspective wise, here's the thing for many blacks.

the police from their Inception have been a force of oppression. Some police in the south were literately formed 1st as the "slave patrol" .
And after Slavery was abolished the police north and south were used to keep the blacks "in their place". as racism and hard core legal discrimination was just a normal part of American life. Being unjustly harassed or killed by the police/U.S.gov't (or an American mob) without any recourse and for nearly any reason was something that always hung over blacks in America.
Thankfully more and more civil rights reforms were made, many during the 1960's. ON PAPER. But Changing police culture has been a slower road. So still in the poorer areas the police often acted with little regard for the ... lets say the constitution. Harsh treatment, false arrest and imprisonments generally or random disrespect and harassment. But still overall the culture made progress. But in regards to Law Enforcement there was added " the war on drugs " set up by NIXON.

"When asked about the "war on drugs" begun in the Nixon Administration...

....“You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black people, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

John Ehrlichman
counsel and Assistant to the President for Domestic Affairs under President Richard Nixon.
https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/"

The war on drugs put a lot of people in jail some justly but as Ehrlichman said blacks were a target. ( + "tough on crime" regs, 3 strikes you out laws, Clinton's "super predators" crime bill)
How many police drugs raids and arrest on college campus have you read about over the years. I saw white guys with more drugs in college than i ever saw blacks had in my neighborhood.

I'll Add anecdotally, if you ask ANY black male and most black women they will tell you about them or a close family member or friend that's had a (or several) uncomfortable to horrific experience with police. My brother has had police trained guns on him 3 different times, twice for plain traffic stops. One of my friends brothers was falsely accused by cops and went to jails for years... until they real criminal confessed. My wife's best friend, wife of a college professor, was pulled over regularly by the same cop and asked why she was in her own, mostly white upscale, neighborhood.

So, the history we're aware of and have heard from parents and grandparents is by DEFAULT different than the experience and view of police of many whites.
So seeing this murder doesn't just look like a ONE OFF of a "bad apple" It looks like more of the same. same as the 60's, 70s, 80's, 90s the past 200+ years.

that's in nutshell is the "perspective".

We all grew up watching police shows too, where the Police are 99% of the times the good guys but in our homes and what we lived we were warned to respect police but be weary of police too.
Many are decent guys but it only takes ONE to destroy your life over nothing, and they're NOT likely to be questioned, caught or tried for nearly any abuse.

Also IMO, becasue of the war on drugs, harsher policing and laws and police militarization began to spread even further so even more people ..white people... are caught up in "crime". And are getting arrested and killed over BS. stop and frisk, no knock warrants, swat teams serving simple warrants, people having assets "forfeited" . etc..
Add to that what seemed to be turn in LEO's general attitudes, where they seem more concerned with getting home at night safe than "protecting and serving". "Better tried by 12 than carried by 6" and the like.
and the mindset that Leo's are, well, "Officials" while everyone else are lowly "civilians" or worse "a potential enemy".
Plus poor training, Like until the past 10+ years little training on deescalation of violence. Multiple police and ex-police have outlined the problems i've mentioned.

So yeah that's part of the perspective many people have.
However even after saying all of that, I do think there's been a move around the country for police depts to do better.
But the perspective of history, recent and otherwise, doesn't help many people focus on the progress.

[Evmetro]

thanks,
and briefly IMO, perspective wise, here's the thing for many blacks.

the police from their Inception have been a force of oppression. Some police in the south were literately formed 1st as the "slave patrol" .
And after Slavery was abolished the police north and south were used to keep the blacks "in their place". as racism and hard core legal discrimination was just a normal part of American life. Being unjustly harassed or killed by the police/U.S.gov't (or an American mob) without any recourse and for nearly any reason was something that always hung over blacks in America.
Thankfully more and more civil rights reforms were made, many during the 1960's. ON PAPER. But Changing police culture has been a slower road. So still in the poorer areas the police often acted with little regard for the ... lets say the constitution. Harsh treatment, false arrest and imprisonments generally or random disrespect and harassment. But still overall the culture made progress. But in regards to Law Enforcement there was added " the war on drugs " set up by NIXON.

"When asked about the "war on drugs" begun in the Nixon Administration...

....“You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black people, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

John Ehrlichman
counsel and Assistant to the President for Domestic Affairs under President Richard Nixon.
https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/"

The war on drugs put a lot of people in jail some justly but as Ehrlichman said blacks were a target. ( + "tough on crime" regs, 3 strikes you out laws, Clinton's "super predators" crime bill)
How many police drugs raids and arrest on college campus have you read about over the years. I saw white guys with more drugs in college than i ever saw blacks had in my neighborhood.

I'll Add anecdotally, if you ask ANY black male and most black women they will tell you about them or a close family member or friend that's had a (or several) uncomfortable to horrific experience with police. My brother has had police trained guns on him 3 different times, twice for plain traffic stops. One of my friends brothers was falsely accused by cops and went to jails for years... until they real criminal confessed. My wife's best friend, wife of a college professor, was pulled over regularly by the same cop and asked why she was in her own, mostly white upscale, neighborhood.

So, the history we're aware of and have heard from parents and grandparents is by DEFAULT different than the experience and view of police of many whites.
So seeing this murder doesn't just look like a ONE OFF of a "bad apple" It looks like more of the same. same as the 60's, 70s, 80's, 90s the past 200+ years.

that's in nutshell is the "perspective".

We all grew up watching police shows too, where the Police are 99% of the times the good guys but in our homes and what we lived we were warned to respect police but be weary of police too.
Many are decent guys but it only takes ONE to destroy your life over nothing, and they're NOT likely to be questioned, caught or tried for nearly any abuse.

Also IMO, becasue of the war on drugs, harsher policing and laws and police militarization began to spread even further so even more people ..white people... are caught up in "crime". And are getting arrested and killed over BS. stop and frisk, no knock warrants, swat teams serving simple warrants, people having assets "forfeited" . etc..
Add to that what seemed to be turn in LEO's general attitudes, where they seem more concerned with getting home at night safe than "protecting and serving". "Better tried by 12 than carried by 6" and the like.
and the mindset that Leo's are, well, "Officials" while everyone else are lowly "civilians" or worse "a potential enemy".
Plus poor training, Like until the past 10+ years little training on deescalation of violence. Multiple police and ex-police have outlined the problems i've mentioned.

So yeah that's part of the perspective many people have.
However even after saying all of that, I do think there's been a move around the country for police depts to do better.
But the perspective of history, recent and otherwise, doesn't help many people focus on the progress.

This history of injustice sounds like something that could be exploited for political gain, especially if "true" equality still has not been achieved. It sounds like the problem is something that is deeper than what can be shown on paper, and it is probably compounded by a cycle of circumstances.

[SassyLady]

here's the thing Sassy, people don't riot over MOST of the apparently unjustified abuses and killings by police.
If you'd go to sites like COP Watch you'd see a stream of police abuses toward black white brown yellow dog and cats. going back months years from around the country.
No riots.
who knows why this particular murder broke the camels back.
I'm more surprised that in the past some incidents ...where the facts are sketchy... become points of outrage. There are enough clear ones, similar ... if not as blatant as the floyd murder.
like handcuffed black man in the back seat of cop car "commits suicide" according to the police. Homeless whiteman in desert shot dead by LEO, camera shows man compliant and non-threating. black man in wheelchair on the sidewalk shoved out of chair by a cop, etc etc...

why this indecent I have no Idea.



as far as how people react to black on black crime please see link i posted above
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...407#post717407


and to be be clear. I'm not sure why people seem to think that civilian black kids killing other civilian black kids is THE SAME as LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS killing innocent people.

Do you really think that's it's the same?

One group are primarily frankly stupid misguided kids,
while the others are trained LEOs who are paid by the gov't to "protect and serve".
The exact OPPOSITE of killing innocent people. Or hurting people who are compliant and/or already in custody.

so yes by default people see the killings differently.
Both are TRAGIC and HORRIBLE but one is an attack/abuse by gov't officials.
The others are stupid crimes by some bad kids and scumbag criminals doing what they do.

BTW 85% of white killings are done by other white people.
White on White crime.

I think the outrage and calls for something to change should have same intensity. Both should be PEACEFULLY protested.

Maybe if young, black, stupid, misguided kids saw massive protests over their behavior it would get their attention.

This chart shows more white people are killed by cops. I wonder how many are killed by black cops. And yet the white people don't start riots like this. Why?

20200601_082854.jpg

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

[Gunny]

How long have you been a member? Of course they do.

No, leftoid. We think that about YOU. I have a lot more respect for what rev has to say, even when I disagree, than I do for a MSNBC bot like you.

[Gunny]

I didn’t, I don’t, but your post that I quoted made me respond. You said people are more upset at the reaction than the murder. That makes it sound like you are upset with anyone who is speaking out angrily about the looting, etc.

I’m not even sure politics is at the root anymore, beyond the Antifa stuff. I feel like people are going crazy, and my fear is that white reaction to the looting will raise the beast.

Problematic in and of itself. As I stated elsewhere, the reason for protest and the victim are overshadowed by the lawlessness. That is partly the fault of the lawless, and partly the media that gives them the attention.

I was wondering yesterday if we could poll these criminals, how many even know the name of the victim and what the crime was. Even more disturbing to me based on various different sources of info (to include posts on this board), it appears we have an undercurrent segment of our society of ALL ethnicities that don't give a second thought to hiding out among actual, peaceful protesters to go out and destroy and steal things they have not earned.

Nothing racist about saying it used to be predominantly blacks that reacted this way and have for half a century. Even though it wasn't and isn't PC to say it and no politician would dare address the truth, we could all SEE who was doing what. ANd yes, this DID start with blacks "doing the usual" when a black gets killed by a white officer. Sad but true, but it's hardly surprising to me anymore.

After this weekend though it appears there a lot more "entitled" criminals out there not worried about their skin color in the crowd as long as they can get a new X-Box

[Gunny]

Yes, I said MORE upset.
I did not say people should not be upset. And don't see how my words imply that either.
Seems like folks assumed that I embraced riots or condone violence.



all 3 comments assume I'm promoting riots, And/Or AGAIN they show emotional outrage over riots. And ZERO reply to the rest of my statement.
as i said, MORE concern over riots.


one issue I have is I can't figure out why people automatically start taking sides. and waiting for more conflict. Rather trying to come up with or work toward fixing problems
with Murderous POLICE and Violent reactionaries. And BS divide and conquer politicians "activist" and media.

As I said Initially. MOST Black whites Latinos everyone really just want to live in peace.
The question is America so small that antifa, anarchist, Neo-Nazis and fringe violent black groups and the MSM can make us "crazy"?
I hope not.

The sad thing is I feel like many on the right see riots and assume ALL black or even MOST blacks agree with it.
Not even close, most of us do "understand it" but still think it's stupid, counter productive and criminal. AND HAVE SAID SO.
But the knee jerk reaction of the many on the right seems to be that, we should address the riot problem can and safely ignore the police problem... and again imagine that there's was never a problem.

If you are wondering why, go back and read some of your posts. Even from yesteryear that someone was kind enough to necro up. You always start off accusing "cops" -- a blanket, one-size-fits-all -- of being the worst of the worst instead of just accusing the one or two or however many bad actor(s) in a given situation of what they have done.

You may not intend that, but your intent means nothing if others are perceiving otherwise. Just my opinion based on observation.