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    Thank you, @revelarts for your prayers. It means a lot.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    I want to expand on my Comment earlier and
    Post a few broad alternative in another post.

    ...

    Alternative "private" options are a start but it can't end there IMO.
    I think I take issue with a couple of your premises. While capitalism and free markets are great you seem to assume that we actually have the basic requirements; low barriers to entry, minimal government, equilibrium, perfect competition, etc. We don't really have all of those things. Don't say that capitalism is the problem when it's capitalism that brought us to where we are. I think it was a Stossel report, or Reason, or Cato that stated the problem with capitalism is capitalists. The basic argument is that you might have a large company that once it gets into a position of power then it becomes a fan of regulation. Regulation that of course has the goal of limiting competition for those already at the top. "Absolute power" is not an axiom that conservatives or libertarians would accept IMO; I wouldn't because I think capitalism is a check on itself, true capitalism with true competition that is.

    Ma Bell actually was a monopoly at the time, none of the tech companies actually are. If you want to talk about remedies, true ones I think, you need to figure out why a monopoly or collusion exists as in which free market tenet is missing. All this is of course whistling in the wind given the current situation we find ourselves in but I think we need to be wary of declaring that we need government action to fix what ails us. I would think that most of us here think we have plenty of laws already on the books and I have zero expectation that any new law in the next couple of years is going to fix anything positively.

    I guess my point is that let's not rush to headlong into a government solution because of unintended consequences and all. And remember, breaking up Ma Bell only resulted in separate local monopolies and only injected competition into the long distance market. Real local competition didn't show up until technology brought it to us.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I think I take issue with a couple of your premises. While capitalism and free markets are great you seem to assume that we actually have the basic requirements; low barriers to entry, minimal government, equilibrium, perfect competition, etc. We don't really have all of those things. Don't say that capitalism is the problem when it's capitalism that brought us to where we are. I think it was a Stossel report, or Reason, or Cato that stated the problem with capitalism is capitalists. The basic argument is that you might have a large company that once it gets into a position of power then it becomes a fan of regulation. Regulation that of course has the goal of limiting competition for those already at the top. "Absolute power" is not an axiom that conservatives or libertarians would accept IMO; I wouldn't because I think capitalism is a check on itself, true capitalism with true competition that is.

    Ma Bell actually was a monopoly at the time, none of the tech companies actually are. If you want to talk about remedies, true ones I think, you need to figure out why a monopoly or collusion exists as in which free market tenet is missing. All this is of course whistling in the wind given the current situation we find ourselves in but I think we need to be wary of declaring that we need government action to fix what ails us. I would think that most of us here think we have plenty of laws already on the books and I have zero expectation that any new law in the next couple of years is going to fix anything positively.

    I guess my point is that let's not rush to headlong into a government solution because of unintended consequences and all. And remember, breaking up Ma Bell only resulted in separate local monopolies and only injected competition into the long distance market. Real local competition didn't show up until technology brought it to us.
    Politicians being bought. Lobbying should be outlawed. Donations by organizations outlawed. That might mean more laws. Of course it's harder to legislate corruption.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    Politicians being bought. Lobbying should be outlawed. Donations by organizations outlawed. That might mean more laws. Of course it's harder to legislate corruption.
    Lobbying is constitutional. Donations as speech is constitutional (see Citizens United). Remove the power of government and you remove the necessity of lobbying.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I think I take issue with a couple of your premises. While capitalism and free markets are great you seem to assume that we actually have the basic requirements; low barriers to entry, minimal government, equilibrium, perfect competition, etc. We don't really have all of those things. Don't say that capitalism is the problem when it's capitalism that brought us to where we are. I think it was a Stossel report, or Reason, or Cato that stated the problem with capitalism is capitalists. The basic argument is that you might have a large company that once it gets into a position of power then it becomes a fan of regulation. Regulation that of course has the goal of limiting competition for those already at the top. "Absolute power" is not an axiom that conservatives or libertarians would accept IMO; I wouldn't because I think capitalism is a check on itself, true capitalism with true competition that is.

    Ma Bell actually was a monopoly at the time, none of the tech companies actually are. If you want to talk about remedies, true ones I think, you need to figure out why a monopoly or collusion exists as in which free market tenet is missing. All this is of course whistling in the wind given the current situation we find ourselves in but I think we need to be wary of declaring that we need government action to fix what ails us. I would think that most of us here think we have plenty of laws already on the books and I have zero expectation that any new law in the next couple of years is going to fix anything positively.

    I guess my point is that let's not rush to headlong into a government solution because of unintended consequences and all. And remember, breaking up Ma Bell only resulted in separate local monopolies and only injected competition into the long distance market. Real local competition didn't show up until technology brought it to us.
    Hey FJ!
    Ok look
    I think a bit of what i mentioned you're displaying here, an idolization of "Capitalism".
    saying "if practiced properly" it will correct any problems.
    Sorry, I don't agree for 2 main reasons.
    1st there's no check on monopoly built into the system. NONE. the only self check is competition. but if a company(s) (with or without go'vt protection/assistance) buys all the land and hold the means of production of a market sector there's NOTHING to break it except a completely new innovation outside of the ownership of the monopoly that replaces/makes obsolete the product or service.
    like the cars replacing horses. Other than that the Company town situation cannot be overcome. Where the company owns everything of real value. The Rich get richer under pure or impure capitalism.
    (You've seen 'it's a wonderful life' right? "Pottersville" anyone? Jonnhy cash song '16 tons' "I owe my soul to the company store"?)

    2nd You mention the problem with capitalism is Capitalist. YES. Exactly, Human beings. look morally Capitalism only ASSUMES some measure of moral fairness and assumes private property rights and Assumes gov't will protect those rights. After those moral assumptions, it then assumes/acknowledges the darker natural nature of people to do what's in their best interest. PERIOD. full stop.
    There's NO moral check on any Capitalist NOT to try to control a market(s) and control it's customers views or lives on any matter. The MORE success/power/influence/control a corporation has, doesn't grant the owners any REASON ,born of capitalism, NOT to use it in anyway they choose.

    Mom and Pop Shops, Sweat Shops, Slavery, 9orn Sites and banning customers from all public communications ALL live well within CAPITALISM'S house. With or without gov't input/influence.

    Again that's NOT to say the CAPITALISM is evil by default. Just that it's NOT enough. There's NO perfect system, becasue people aren't perfect.
    But the Gov't can be an IMPERFECT check on a Decent and effective but imperfect CAPITALISM.

    Like i said seems to me decentralize, multiple Capitalist options is THE BEST. That's where all the benefits really live for the most people.
    But seems clear to me from history that at some point Capitalism breaks when things get to centralized. Which is what often happens.



    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    Politicians being bought. Lobbying should be outlawed. Donations by organizations outlawed. That might mean more laws. Of course it's harder to legislate corruption.
    Agreed, Corporate Lobbying should be outlawed. corporations are NOT people or Citizens. But easier said than done. needs BI-PARTISAN grassroots pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Lobbying is constitutional. Donations as speech is constitutional (see Citizens United). Remove the power of government and you remove the necessity of lobbying.
    Sure A lot of the power of Gov't should be "removed" but what FJ? You may be more libertarian than most conservatives. But the Mitt Romneys, Donald Trumps and DCheeney types LOVE big Gov't, Love lockheed Martin and Wall street style influence and connection. They are not purist when it comes to capitalist ideals. most conservatives are not purist on ANY ideals. And many will vote for wall st establishment capitalist. (Because we're told the alternative is 100% USSR style socialism!)
    So, Yes the gov't can and does muddy the waters even more sometimes. At times working WITH/FOR the behemoths, sometimes stiffing competition hard.
    there's plenty of examples of that in nearly every industry.
    But most rank and file conservatives don't fight that either becasue we've been told that we're "fighting" (the IDOL of) capitalism. And we should all expect the bennies to "tickle down" form the hands of the Big Biz. Trust "capitalism".

    Sorry, i don't buy it and more people see the problems today than ever.
    Capitalism, limited by honest gov't AND personal morals is Great. Capitalism as an idol is bs.
    Last edited by revelarts; 01-17-2021 at 02:26 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Hey FJ!
    Ok look
    I think a bit of what i mentioned you're displaying here, an idolization of "Capitalism".
    saying "if practiced properly" it will correct any problems.
    Sorry, I don't agree for 2 main reasons.
    1st there's no check on monopoly built into the system. NONE. the only self check is competition. but if a company(s) (with or without go'vt protection/assistance) buys all the land and hold the means of production of a market sector there's NOTHING to break it except a completely new innovation outside of the ownership of the monopoly that replaces/makes obsolete the product or service.
    like the cars replacing horses. Other than that the Company town situation cannot be overcome. Where the company owns everything of real value. The Rich get richer under pure capitalism.
    (You've seen 'it's a wonderful life' right? "Pottersville" anyone? Jonnhy cash song '16 tons' "I owe my soul to the company store"?)

    2nd You mention the problem with capitalism is Capitalist. YES. Exactly, Human beings. look morally Capitalism only ASSUMES some measure of moral fairness and assumes private property rights and Assumes gov't will protect those rights. After those moral assumptions, it then assumes/acknowledges the darker natural nature of people to do what's in their best interest. PERIOD. full stop.
    There's NO moral check on any Capitalist NOT to try to control a market(s) and control it's customers views or lives on any matter. The MORE success/power/influence/control a corporation has, doesn't grant the owners any REASON ,born of capitalism, NOT to use it in anyway they choose.

    Mom and Pop Shops, Sweat Shops, Slavery and banning customers from all public communications ALL live well within CAPITALISM'S house. With or without gov't input/influence.

    Again that's NOT to say the CAPITALISM is evil by default. Just that it's NOT enough. There's NO perfect system, becasue people aren't perfect.
    But the Gov't can be an IMPERFECT check on a Decent and effective but imperfect CAPITALISM.

    Like i said seems to me decentralize, multiple Capitalist options is THE BEST. That's where all the benefits really live for the most people.
    But seems clear to me from history that at some point Capitalism breaks when things get to centralized. Which is what often happens.
    I'll be careful; I don't want to idolize false images. I have to disagree with you. Self check is a check built into the system. I'm sure we can get together and agree on all the scenarios where it seems like the system breaks down but we'll probably identify 9 in 10 that have some sort of governmental interference causing a lack of competition or an advantage given to one side or the other. I was listening to a Friedman speech earlier where he said when government is 10% of gross spending then the harm of government intervention is fairly limited while when it's 40% then we can probably agree that we've swung to far.

    But my point is not that capitalists are what's wrong with capitalism it's those who pass laws and regulations who allow the capitalists to be the problem. I've also not seen many examples where capitalism "breaks," it's just a matter of people who convince elected officials that it's broken and demand changes based on their POV.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Agreed, Corporate Lobbying should be outlawed. corporations are NOT people or Citizens. But easier said than done. needs BI-PARTISAN grassroots pressure.
    Corporations are made up of citizens and are subject to government regulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Sure A lot of the power of Gov't should be "removed" but what FJ? You may be more libertarian than most conservatives. But the Mitt Romneys, Donald Trumps and DCheeney types LOVE big Gov't, Love lockheed Martin and Wall street style influence and connection. They are not purist when it comes to capitalist ideals. most conservatives are not purist on ANY ideals. And many will vote for wall st establishment capitalist. (Because we're told the alternative is 100% USSR style socialism!)
    So, Yes the gov't can and does muddy the waters even more sometimes. At times working WITH/FOR the behemoths, sometimes stiffing competition hard.
    there's plenty of examples of that in nearly every industry.
    But most rank and file conservatives don't fight that either becasue we've been told that we're "fighting" (the IDOL of) capitalism. And we should all expect the bennies to "tickle down" form the hands of the Big Biz. Trust "capitalism".

    Sorry, i don't buy it and more people see the problems today than ever.
    Capitalism, limited by honest gov't AND personal morals is Great. Capitalism as an idol is bs.
    My main beef with the Republican party these past 4 years has been what I'd considered to be small-government, constitution applying folks that have turned out to be nothing of the sort. They're all for big government as long as it's there big government. But if I'm going to trust something it's going to be the thing that is closer to capitalism than is farther from capitalism.

    I just think you're wrong about who you think buys the capitalism as idol argument.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I'll be careful; I don't want to idolize false images. I have to disagree with you. Self check is a check built into the system. I'm sure we can get together and agree on all the scenarios where it seems like the system breaks down but we'll probably identify 9 in 10 that have some sort of governmental interference causing a lack of competition or an advantage given to one side or the other. I was listening to a Friedman speech earlier where he said when government is 10% of gross spending then the harm of government intervention is fairly limited while when it's 40% then we can probably agree that we've swung to far.

    But my point is not that capitalists are what's wrong with capitalism it's those who pass laws and regulations who allow the capitalists to be the problem. I've also not seen many examples where capitalism "breaks," it's just a matter of people who convince elected officials that it's broken and demand changes based on their POV.



    Corporations are made up of citizens and are subject to government regulation.



    My main beef with the Republican party these past 4 years has been what I'd considered to be small-government, constitution applying folks that have turned out to be nothing of the sort. They're all for big government as long as it's there big government. But if I'm going to trust something it's going to be the thing that is closer to capitalism than is farther from capitalism.

    I just think you're wrong about who you think buys the capitalism as idol argument.
    Ah well, No perfect solutions, I just hope the country can move forward.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Ah well, No perfect solutions, I just hope the country can move forward.
    True, true. I predict a "solution." I further predict it will be far from perfect.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I'll be careful; I don't want to idolize false images. I have to disagree with you. Self check is a check built into the system. I'm sure we can get together and agree on all the scenarios where it seems like the system breaks down but we'll probably identify 9 in 10 that have some sort of governmental interference causing a lack of competition or an advantage given to one side or the other. I was listening to a Friedman speech earlier where he said when government is 10% of gross spending then the harm of government intervention is fairly limited while when it's 40% then we can probably agree that we've swung to far.

    But my point is not that capitalists are what's wrong with capitalism it's those who pass laws and regulations who allow the capitalists to be the problem. I've also not seen many examples where capitalism "breaks," it's just a matter of people who convince elected officials that it's broken and demand changes based on their POV.



    Corporations are made up of citizens and are subject to government regulation.



    My main beef with the Republican party these past 4 years has been what I'd considered to be small-government, constitution applying folks that have turned out to be nothing of the sort. They're all for big government as long as it's there big government. But if I'm going to trust something it's going to be the thing that is closer to capitalism than is farther from capitalism.

    I just think you're wrong about who you think buys the capitalism as idol argument.
    Agreed. It's a trend that hit full throttle with 9/11 and has shown no sign of stopping. All this 'free money' without any need to have been financially impacted by covid. I do not take the covid money, it's my own little boycott of stupidity, (though it could be argued I'm the stupid one.) My kids have all received hefty raises during this period, one fully working from home, 1 going in twice a month for checking with workers there. Their covid money used for cars/daycare costs. There's folks with a whole lot more, complaining that their checks haven't arrived yet-sounds like the old days of welfare.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    True, true. I predict a "solution." I further predict it will be far from perfect.
    one last i question i have for you though.
    It's question that's usually asked of hard core socialist about real socialism?

    Can you show me some nation , current or in history, where real Capitalism has been practiced and did all the self correcting promised?

    Where there was no gov't intervention, no robber barons, child labor and sweat shops etc?
    Last edited by revelarts; 01-17-2021 at 04:04 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Agreed. It's a trend that hit full throttle with 9/11 and has shown no sign of stopping. All this 'free money' without any need to have been financially impacted by covid. I do not take the covid money, it's my own little boycott of stupidity, (though it could be argued I'm the stupid one.) My kids have all received hefty raises during this period, one fully working from home, 1 going in twice a month for checking with workers there. Their covid money used for cars/daycare costs. There's folks with a whole lot more, complaining that their checks haven't arrived yet-sounds like the old days of welfare.
    It is ridiculous. I can't say we took the money, they just sent it to us and it's sitting in our accounts. My wife works has had zero work interruptions and I've been working without interruptions so we have no need for the money. Most of the people I know do not need the money but when the argument is "get the money out there" by direct check, PPP, extra unemployment, etc. There's no rational thought behind it. Frustrating.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    one last i question i have for you though.
    It's question that's usually asked of hard core socialist about real socialism?

    Can you show me some nation , current or in history, where real Capitalism has been practiced and did all the self correcting promised?

    Where there was no gov't intervention, no robber barons, child labor and sweat shops etc?
    I'm not sure I can give you a satisfactory answer but capitalism is practiced all over. More economic liberty leads to better overall outcomes, that is my overall point; I know that less liberty leads to worse outcomes. There are restrictions put in place all the time and in some of those cases it's necessary. Society can decide that child labor and sweat shops are not how they want things to be and can put in place laws or regulations to restrict those cases. If there are real imbalances in economic power then there will be laws.

    I don't have a problem with "robber barons" who came by their wealth honestly. Those who named them robber barons wanted to limit their power or create laws and regulations where they could get their own wealth; dishonestly. I recall a good article I posted about robber barons a long time ago. "bring back the robber barons" IIRC.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    It is ridiculous. I can't say we took the money, they just sent it to us and it's sitting in our accounts. My wife works has had zero work interruptions and I've been working without interruptions so we have no need for the money. Most of the people I know do not need the money but when the argument is "get the money out there" by direct check, PPP, extra unemployment, etc. There's no rational thought behind it. Frustrating.
    I am retired. My income has not changed. I sent the money back to IRS as a quarterly estimated tax payment.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    I don't personally have much experience with any of them except Lbry and Godtube but here ya go

    VIDEO alternatives
    https://lbry.tv/
    https://rokfin.com/
    https://www.godtube.com/
    https://www.bitchute.com/faq
    https://rumble.com/
    https://ise.media/
    joinpeertube.org
    DTUBE
    https://www.dailymotion.com/us


    SOCIAL MEDIA alternatives
    https://flote.app/
    https://telegram.org/ Steemit
    https://www.minds.com/
    https://hive.blog/
    https://bruuunch.com/

    Sometime ago I heard Jordan Peterson was working on an alternative platform of some kind as well as he began to see the overt censorship against him and others.
    Not sure how far that's gotten

    https://itsfoss.com/mainstream-socia...a-alternaives/
    Last edited by revelarts; 01-18-2021 at 10:11 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Lobbying is constitutional. Donations as speech is constitutional (see Citizens United). Remove the power of government and you remove the necessity of lobbying.
    Power vacuums are readily and easily filled.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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