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    Default MoD admits campaign in Afghanistan is 'an unwinnable war'

    UK Ministry of Defense

    British soldiers fighting in Afghanistan are part of a campaign that attempted to “impose an ideology foreign to the Afghan people” and was “unwinnable in military terms”, according to a damning report by the Ministry of Defence.

    The internal study says that Nato forces have been unable to “establish control over the insurgents’ safe havens” or “protect the rural population”, and warns the “conditions do not exist” to guarantee the survival of the Afghan government after combat troops withdraw next year.

    The report, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, says that when troops leave, Afghanistan “will be left with a severely damaged and very weak economic base”, which means that the West will have to continue to fund “large-scale support programmes” for many years to come.

    Even if the internal situation were stable, the Afghan government may not survive the destabilising activities of its neighbours. “Regional players do not have a vested interest in the success of the Kabul government”, states the document in a clear reference to Pakistan.

    The report, Lessons from the Soviet Transition in Afghanistan, is an internal research project produced in November last year by the MoD’s think-tank, the Development, Concepts and Doctrine Centre (DCDC). Based in Shrivenham, Wiltshire, the DCDC’s reports “help inform decisions in defence strategy, capability development and operations” across all three branches of the armed forces.

    The study examines the “extraordinary number of similar factors that surround both the Soviet and Nato campaigns in Afghanistan” and highlights lessons that military commanders could learn.

    “The highest-level parallel is that both campaigns were conceived with the aim of imposing an ideology foreign to the Afghan people: the Soviets hoped to establish a Communist state while Nato wished to build a democracy,” it says. “Equally striking is that both abandoned their central aim once they realised that the war was unwinnable in military terms and that support of the population was essential.”

    It continues: “Both interventions have been portrayed as foreign invasions attempting to support a corrupt and unpopular central government against a local insurgent movement which has popular support, strong religious motivation and safe havens abroad. In addition, the country will again be left with a severely damaged and very weak economic base, heavily dependent upon external aid.”

    In unusually frank terms, it goes on: “The international setting for both campaigns has significant similarities with world opinion judging both as failed interventions. Both faced a loss of confidence in their strategic world leadership and increasing domestic and financial pressure to abandon the enterprise.”

    Turning to lessons for the armed forces, it says: “The military parallels are equally striking; the 40th Army [of the Soviet Union] was unable decisively to defeat the mujahedin while facing no existential threat itself, a situation that precisely echoes the predicament of Isaf [the Nato-led security mission]. Neither campaign established control over the country’s borders and the insurgents’ safe havens; both were unable to protect the rural population.”
    ....

    An MoD spokesman said: “We are in Afghanistan to protect our national security by helping Afghans to take control of their own. We are not trying to build a perfect Afghanistan – rather one that does not again provide safe haven for international terrorists.
    MoD admits campaign in Afghanistan is 'an unwinnable war' - UK Politics - UK - The Independent
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Thank you for this report from the Independent .. a broadly Left-wing newspaper from the UK. Oh, I know the name 'Independent' promises non-bias .. and indeed, it did start out that way. But they lurched to the Left during the Iraq War, and haven't looked back, since ...

    ... and I can reciprocate with another report which says the same thing. Yes, this is from an IRANIAN site ...

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/03...ar-unwinnable/

    Headline:

    UK slyly admits Afghan war unwinnable
    ... there y'go.

    As for the report itself, I hardly have anything to say, other than to register my disgust at their defeatist attitude.

    I also ask why your OWN seems geared to finding justifications for doing LESS and LESS to fight terrrorism.

    Care to explain that ? And 'I'm a Leftie, so what else can you expect me to do' isn't a good enough answer.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Rev, the lefties and the muslims are firmly in control in Britain. One must understand why they would post or would gladly echo such garbage.
    The muslims there force the dumbass government to placate them , their ideology and their relentless hatred. A SAD FACT.. --Tyr
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    Rev, the lefties and the muslims are firmly in control in Britain. One must understand why they would post or would gladly echo such garbage.
    The muslims there force the dumbass government to placate them , their ideology and their relentless hatred. A SAD FACT.. --Tyr
    Tyr OK Drummond assumes that since the Left wing paper printed it wrong already , as if they wrote the report , instead of the U.K's Ministry of Defense.
    I'm not sure how the Paper is to blame for the CONTENT of the report an the report is therefore dismisses it on one level because the paper is left wing. It make perfect sense to Drummond and i won't debate him on it. his mind is made up. And Huffs about the Defeatist attude in the Report but no acknowledgement of the fact that lead to the conclusion. Or how trrorism gets a victory if the U.K. leaves. the taliban has never attacked the U.K. or the U.S. except byit drug trade which certian parts of our gov'ts are for anyway.

    You at least acknowledge that the Gov't wrote the paper but you want to dismiss it because you ASSUME they HAD TO write the report because of presure from muslims.

    Do you have ANY specific proof that this report was written for that reason?
    If not it's a far fecthed assumption it seems to me.

    you and drummond may "KNOW" what's happeing in the UK's M.O.D. because you are "right" because you just know the report can't be true, but the rest of us poor souls can only go by what people who work their actual SAY, Write and other public evidence.


    But the full report, itself mentions that the division of the M.O.D. produced it often tries to factually challenge the M.O.D.s status quo somewhat.
    so if you want to grab a thread of a reason to reject the report outright there's one for you.

    However it'd ne better if you guys said something like.
    the Report is wrong because the evidence shows that Afghanistan is well on it's way to becoming a self sufficient democracy, it's economy is great, the Taliban are in retreat, the puppet gov't in Kabel is Strong and well manged and ready to transition in the next elections, and there's little corruption. The Afghan Army is a fine well oiled fight force for a democratic and free Afghanistan. or some or all of that, ANY of that is around the corner in 1 year 3 years 5 years 10 years...

    But you know none of that is true.
    so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.
    Last edited by revelarts; 04-21-2013 at 01:23 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Tyr OK Drummond assumes that since the Left wing paper printed it wrong already , as if they wrote the report , instead of the U.K's Ministry of Defense.
    I'm not sure how the Paper is to blame for the CONTENT of the report an the report is therefore dismisses it on one level because the paper is left wing. It make perfect sense to Drummond and i won't debate him on it. his mind is made up. And Huffs about the Defeatist attude in the Report but no acknowledgement of the fact that lead to the conclusion. Or how trrorism gets a victory if the U.K. leaves. the taliban has never attacked the U.K. or the U.S. except byit drug trade which certian parts of our gov'ts are for anyway.

    You at least acknowledge that the Gov't wrote the paper but you want to dismiss it because you ASSUME they HAD TO write the report because of presure from muslims.

    Do you have ANY specific proof that this report was written for that reason?
    If not it's a far fecthed assumption it seems to me.

    you and drummond may "KNOW" what's happeing in the UK's M.O.D. because you are "right" because you just know the report can't be true, but the rest of us poor souls can only go by what people who work their actual SAY, Write and other public evidence.


    But the full report, itself mentions that the division of the M.O.D. produced it often tries to factually challenge the M.O.D.s status quo somewhat.
    so if you want to grab a thread of a reason to reject the report outright there's one for you.

    However it'd ne better if you guys said something like.
    the Report is wrong because the evidence shows that Afghanistan is well on it's way to becoming a self sufficient democracy, it's economy is great, the Taliban are in retreat, the puppet gov't in Kabel is Strong and well manged and ready to transition in the next elections, and there's little corruption. The Afghan Army is a fine well oiled fight force for a democratic and free Afghanistan. or some or all of that, ANY of that is around the corner in 1 year 3 years 5 years 10 years...

    But you know none of that is true.
    so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.
    Actually Drummond has far more knowledge about Britain and its leftist/Islamic corruption in government than do I. HERE IS JUST A SMALL SAMPLE FOR YOU TO CONSIDER..-Tyr

    Muslim Council of Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Council_of_Britain
    The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) is a self-appointed umbrella body for national, .... The MCB received £150,000 of public money from the Government for a .... a role", but emphasised: "such propaganda can only be effective because of the ...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3235/anti-semitic-iranian-propaganda-uk




    British Allow Anti-Semitic Iranian Propaganda in the UK

    by Lee Kaplan
    August 1, 2012 at 4:45 am

    Despite these convictions for "hate crimes" against Islam, the British government is apparently perfectly willing to overlook the converse: anti-Semitic attacks by Iranian front groups against Jews. The deeper question for the British government is this: If British citizens can be fined or incarcerated for expressing unsavory opinions about Islam, how come Lady Renouf and Philip Bree are not being charged with "hate crimes" as well for doing exactly the same thing against the Jewish people?
    "The Heritage and Destiny Channel," on You Tube, run by Iran, currently features a : an actress and film producer named Michelle Renouf, whose real name is Michelle Mainwaring, 62, a former Australian television model, now a British citizen, and a barrister named Philip Bree, who lives in London. Both star in mock interviews by Iranian TV, and try to lend an air of rational authority in their interviews as they methodically explain that the Olympic logo being used at this week's Olympic Games in London is in fact a conspiratorial "subliminal Zion race-supremacy logo," and part of an international conspiracy conducted by the Jews. According to Lady Renouf, the zigzag design of the logo's lettering spells out the word "Zion," and refers to Jews and Israel. The video can be seen in the UK as well as on You Tube.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The British have been in the news lately for their stretched-to-the-limit political correctness concerning militant Islamists, and have even been for "hate crimes" against Islam – one British police official referred to them as a "zero tolerance policy" – the British government seems perfectly willing to overlook the converse: anti-Semitic attacks by Iranian front groups against the Jewish community.
    At issue here is more than some paid Jew-haters attempting to fan the flames of anti-Semitism at the 2012 Olympics in London. In addition, the Olympics Committee also refused to allow one minute of silence as a memorial for Israelis murdered at Munich Olympics of 1972 simply for being Jews. It is not clear if no Jewish names were submitted when the British read out other names, or whether these Jewish names had been officially submitted, as requested, but were the expunged before they could publicly be read.
    The deeper question for the British Government is this: If British citizens can be fined or incarcerated for expressing unsavory opinions about Islam, how come Lady Renouf and Philip Bree are not being charged with "hate crimes" as well for doing the exactly the same against the Jewish people?
    Last edited by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot; 04-21-2013 at 12:21 PM.
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post

    But you know none of that is true.
    so Drummond whines about the Independent being a liberal paper. which has ZERO to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a hot mess that no one, not even Alexander the Great, has ever been able to defeat. America and the U.K. can add it's names to the list of empires that have come fought, and left. Left SOON i hope.
    I call bullshit on that bolded above. Had we went in with all our might and blasted the country as we easily could have done in less than 3 months time the entire country would have been decimated and their defeat would have been a sealed fate.
    So your view that NOBODY can defeat them is GROSSLY WRONG!
    I could have if given command of our military issued orders that would have defeated them. Our military holds back too damn much! And always has ever since the victory in WW2. Any military historian worth his salt can safely vouch for that..
    Come on we can (or once could have) defeated the Soviets and the Chinese combined but we could never defeat the bastards in A-stan!!!!!
    Our country has not fought a war all out since WW2!!!!
    And that politically induced mistake has cost us dearly both in treasure and more importantly lives lost...--Tyr
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    I call bullshit on that bolded above. Had we went in with all our might and blasted the country as we easily could have done in less than 3 months time the entire country would have been decimated and their defeat would have been a sealed fate.
    So your view that NOBODY can defeat them is GROSSLY WRONG!
    I could have if given command of our military issued orders that would have defeated them. Our military holds back too damn much! And always has ever since the victory in WW2. Any military historian worth his salt can safely vouch for that..
    Come on we can (or once could have) defeated the Soviets and the Chinese combined but we could never defeat the bastards in A-stan!!!!!
    Our country has not fought a war all out since WW2!!!!
    And that politically induced mistake has cost us dearly both in treasure and more importantly lives lost...--Tyr
    Did the Soviets hold back when they fought Afghanistan?
    You know as well as I that fighting a war against home grown guerrilla forces is not easy.
    THat's why i say a gov't war against the People of the U.S. won't be easy even though the millitary will out gun the people as far a high powered weapon go. The French were defeated in WW2 but there was still the french resistance.

    Unless you literally made Afghanistan a parking lot. Or went to every village and and cave and shot all the males over 14. Then replaced them with Americans you'd probably not have victory seems to me. Many of those people don't even know what 9-11 IS. Or why the heck the U.S. are fighting they just know that it's their home.

    regarless we've been there over 10 years and we have not won. 3 generals over 200,000 troops at a time. Will a million boots on the ground win it for us?

    And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?
    I'll give you another question in response.

    It might be easier, and will lead to the answer to your question: If the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, why were we fighting Germans in northern Africa?
    Mama Jeffro: Jeeeeh-froooo! What's going on down there? What's that smell?
    Jeffro: Nothing ma! Me and Lorenzo are practicing our Turkish oil wrestling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Did the Soviets hold back when they fought Afghanistan?
    You know as well as I that fighting a war against home grown guerrilla forces is not easy.
    THat's why i say a gov't war against the People of the U.S. won't be easy even though the millitary will out gun the people as far a high powered weapon go. The French were defeated in WW2 but there was still the french resistance.

    Unless you literally made Afghanistan a parking lot. Or went to every village and and cave and shot all the males over 14. Then replaced them with Americans you'd probably not have victory seems to me. Many of those people don't even know what 9-11 IS. Or why the heck the U.S. are fighting they just know that it's their home.

    regarless we've been there over 10 years and we have not won. 3 generals over 200,000 troops at a time. Will a million boots on the ground win it for us?

    And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?
    My friend, like I said, we haven't fought a war all out since WW2..
    I would bet my life that I could have taken charge and ordered actions that would have had complete victory there in about 3 months.
    Shooting 14 year old and above included if it became a damn necessity. War is pure hell no time for niceties . Besides cite the niceties that our opposition there engages in.
    Here let me help to start you off.
    1. Zero..
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Probably true.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  11. Thanks revelarts thanked this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Did the Soviets hold back when they fought Afghanistan?
    You know as well as I that fighting a war against home grown guerrilla forces is not easy.
    THat's why i say a gov't war against the People of the U.S. won't be easy even though the millitary will out gun the people as far a high powered weapon go. The French were defeated in WW2 but there was still the french resistance.

    Unless you literally made Afghanistan a parking lot. Or went to every village and and cave and shot all the males over 14. Then replaced them with Americans you'd probably not have victory seems to me. Many of those people don't even know what 9-11 IS. Or why the heck the U.S. are fighting they just know that it's their home.

    regarless we've been there over 10 years and we have not won. 3 generals over 200,000 troops at a time. Will a million boots on the ground win it for us?

    And that still begs the question what the heck are we doing there anyway?
    Obviosly - very obviously - you're itching to get American troops out of Afghanistan as soon as possible. You're clearly unhappy about them having any involvement with the place. Never mind the fact that Afghanistan was a Failed State, hosting Al Qaeda and all the training camps they could ever want. Never mind the fact that their hosts, the Taliban, are STILL not a defeated force. Never mind the fact that, if it isn't properly arranged to the contrary, the Taliban will gain a decisive foothold once more and AGAIN open up the likelihood of being terrorist enablers once more.

    And, never mind the MIND BOGGLING STUPIDITY OF A LEFTIE PRESIDENT TELLING THOSE WHO ARE HIS SUPPOSED ENEMIES, YEARS IN ADVANCE, OF WHEN HE INTENDS TO WITHDRAW ALL HIS FORCES !!!

    Why, I repeat, WHY, are Lefties so intent on making life for terrorists so EASY ? Thanks to Obama'a announcement, they know that if they last out beyond a certain time, they'll have no more 'trouble' from American forces !!

    Tactically, that was (and at minimum) utterly stupid. Which means that the conditions of handover to local forces becomes far more critical to get right. By the time of withdrawal, AND by the set timetable, the 'locals' MUST be capable of keeping the Taliban firmly in check. BUT, Revelarts, what's your hope ? That they get out 'soon'.

    Perhaps you want the chances of a Taliban resurgence maximised ? Or perhaps you don't care ?

    Well .... I for one think it's vitally important that Afghanistan doesn't become AGAIN what it was back in 2001, a terrorist haven.

    Or, perhaps .. you DON'T CARE ?

    Your belief that wars undertaken in Afghanistan are 'unwinnable' because, in the past, wars have been lost ... makes no sense. Are all armies equal ? Have no advances in transport or weaponry occurred in the past century or more ?

    Perhaps you've suddenly overlooked the fact that you have nukes .. or, is Afghanistan magically immune to them ? Whether or not their use should be wished for, FACTUALLY, you DO have the means to win, and to do so AT ANY TIME YOU CHOOSE.

    I can tell you what today's lack of total success comes down to. It comes down to a LACK OF WILL TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN.

    Indeed .... far better to wish for a swift retreat, eh ?

    Sounds familiar ??
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    My friend, like I said, we haven't fought a war all out since WW2..
    I would bet my life that I could have taken charge and ordered actions that would have had complete victory there in about 3 months.
    Shooting 14 year old and above included if it became a damn necessity. War is pure hell no time for niceties . Besides cite the niceties that our opposition there engages in.
    Here let me help to start you off.
    1. Zero..
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Probably true.
    More defeatism ?

    The Left Speaks Again ..
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    More defeatism ?

    The Left Speaks Again ..

    Sir Drummond. Call it whatever you like, and it won't hurt my feelings. You see. Many of us here fully understand how our Democrat Party fellow Americans are, and have always been the Model's of Appeasement, Kissing Butt, Political Correctness, and generally a sense of CARTER/CLINTON, and now OBAMA Feminine Wuss Factor wearing Men's clothes, but having nothing between their legs to protect, with anything other than a Good, Strong Sanitary Napkin.

    Granted. I am an American Veteran with three decades of military experience. So, my number One agenda is THE SECURITY of our Nation, and future of our five grand children. But. Since the present political administration has labeled me, and thousands of other American Veterans as Inbred, Homegrown Terrorists who practice Racism.
    I am offended to learn how so many millions of American Male citizens are CHICKENS, and would prefer to WUSS their way out of any personal responsibility to DEFEND their Rights, Freedoms, and Liberties...like we have seen recently....cutrun.jpg. And the person shown in that photo is a GELDING who happily blames others for his ANTI-AMERICAN BullShit as the Majority WUSS in Congress.
    Last edited by aboutime; 04-21-2013 at 06:19 PM.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    More defeatism ?

    The Left Speaks Again ..
    You slay bro'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drummond View Post
    Perhaps you want the chances of a Taliban resurgence maximised ? Or perhaps you don't care ?

    Well .... I for one think it's vitally important that Afghanistan doesn't become AGAIN what it was back in 2001, a terrorist haven.
    Prior to 9/11 we cared not a whit about the Taliban and didn't post 9/11 up until they refused to turn over OBL. So what is our winning strategy against a group we don't care about (but for AQ connections)?
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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