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  1. #16
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    "A Dutch photographer used artificial intelligence to construct a portrait of Jesus based on what we know about his ethnicity and culture. This is what he looks like. As we’ve said, we worship a Middle Eastern man of color named Jesus who spoke zero English, died on the cross for our sin and resurrected from the dead, and was once an Immigrant child fleeing persecution. He’s not American. He doesn’t have blue or green eyes. He’s not a Republican or Democrat. He’s not a donkey or elephant. He’s the lion and the lamb"

    It's true.

    And sadly, I have met some Christians and Non-Christians that do care. Many I haven't met but have read about in history and current culture.

    When my sister in law was in high school she did house worked for an elderly white woman. Both were Christians. One day, after the woman got to know my sister-in-law, the woman said to her. "When you get to heaven you'll be white like me." Saying it in a tone that held nothing but kindness.
    Obviously she understood that everyone in heaven, including Jesus was white.
    She did care. And clearly thought it was BETTER to be white than black. And God would make that happen for this poor lil black girl that was working for her.

    So, did my sister-in-law run into the only or the last Christian white person in America to think like that in the past 40 years?
    The only one who thinks that Jesus and the disciples were blond and blue eye white folks ... or even Aryans?

    But I guess a case could be made that "no real Christian" cares... TODAY. But historically
    (40 years ago and going back thousand odd years) and in recent history MANY Christians have cared, and pushed the idea of a Jesus being white for various reasons and by various means.

    Today even there's no doubt that many Nazis Neo-Nazis and various White suprematist still claim Jesus was white. Some of them even claim the Egyptians were white.

    But yes, saying we shouldn't care what race Jesus is is exactly right.
    But saying that NO ONE cares is false.
    The fact that Jesus's "race" leans heavy toward brown is, in fact, a blow to some folks BS racial pride. And for others it a BS source of racial pride.
    Neither sentiment is "Christian".

    Fact is, more than few Christians, of ALL races, still have to overcome various levels of sinful ideas and feeling about other "races". And learn to REALLY see everyone as brothers and sisters, FAMILY. ALL Made in the image of God. (which means God is mixed race or maybe race doesn't matter concerning his image.)

    Race is a BS issue that's really a waste of time, but somehow we really have difficulty with it.

    Last edited by revelarts; 10-01-2021 at 07:33 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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  3. #17
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    One sectarian example (there are more than these) is that many of my Mormon friends still think blacks should not hold their priesthood, and that blacks will be lifted up in a second resurrection to serve whites in heaven.

    Many still believe that indigenous peoples will become 'white and delightsome' after the Second Coming.

    Yes, many so-called Christians do care about the color of our Lord and Savior, and they and their congregations should be avoided whenever possible. We can tell that some on this forum think like these so-called Christians.
    Last edited by JakeStarkey; 10-01-2021 at 08:16 AM.

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    A thread apparently intended to
    1. attack whites
    2. attack Christians
    3. divide Christians

    I have been to services for several different denominations (and non-denominations) for decades, and have never heard anyone express these kinds of sentiments. Nor even imply them. Either some of you hang around some twisted and broken (fake) Christians, or this is just anecdotal, or it’s entirely BS. Any which way, bad stuff.

    Exactly nothing in the OP fulfills Jesus’ hopes and plans for us. You must be very proud, Jake.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey Marie View Post
    A thread apparently intended to
    1. attack whites
    2. attack Christians
    3. divide Christians

    I have been to services for several different denominations (and non-denominations) for decades, and have never heard anyone express these kinds of sentiments. Nor even imply them. Either some of you hang around some twisted and broken (fake) Christians, or this is just anecdotal, or it’s entirely BS. Any which way, bad stuff.

    Exactly nothing in the OP fulfills Jesus’ hopes and plans for us. You must be very proud, Jake.
    Oh come on. This is a discussion forum. The sole point was to raise an issue that has been discussed many a time and that is the institutionalized racist assumptions in Christianity. Its not meant to attack whites, Christians or divide anyone. Its simply a point made to people who use religion to justify thinking they are superior to others.Hey I am Jewish I did not assume the article was presumptuous saying "we" believe in Jesus.

    You need to ease up just a tad. If anything you are causing the division.

    Lol ease up. If there was a Jesus he's probably not what anyone imagines he was anyways.We are relying on many times removed stories from the actual events complete with the editorials, biases, censorship of the writers of the New Testament acting under the orders of King Constantine to merge pagan and Christian beliefs to avoid a civil war and create an institution (confession) so he could keep on eye on what people were thinking.

    Geez just translating Armaic, Hebrew, Greek and Latin back and for the would have distorted half the words/.Then throw in the political biases and agenda of the writers being instructed by Constantine and you get quite a hybrid of confusing stories.

    I myself always found it somewhat amusing seeing Jesus depicted as a blonde haired, blue eyed Aryan. I am sure he had a big hook nose and flared large nostrils and looked like a camel. So what.Come on people who have beards and sandals are crazy who think Bernie Saunders is the Messiah or even worse Donald Trump. Did you see those guys on Capital hill?
    Last edited by Mika-El; 10-01-2021 at 10:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mika-El View Post
    Oh come on. This is a discussion forum. The sole point was to raise an issue that has been discussed many a time and that is the institutionalized racist assumptions in Christianity. Its not meant to attack whites, Christians or divide anyone. Its simply a point made to people who use religion to justify thinking they are superior to others.Hey I am Jewish I did not assume the article was presumptuous saying "we" beieve in Jesus. I did not take it as an attack on Christians and I am white I think. More like grey pink green this time of year.

    You need to ease up just a tad. If anything you are causing the division. You can criticize your religion without putting it down. Hell you can't put two of Us Jewish people in a room and get us to agree on anything in the Bible let alone life. The only thing we agree on is medical ailments and even then we compete as to who's aches are achiest.

    Lol ease up. If there was a Jesus he's probably not what anyone imagines he was anyways.We are relying on many times removed stories from the actual events complete with the editorials, biases, censorship of the writers asked to draft the new testament for King Constantine anyways.

    Geez just translating Armaic, Hebrew, Greek and Latin would have distorted half the words/ Then throw in the political biases of the writers being instructed by Constantine to fuse pagan with Christian beliefs to prevent a civil war between the two and presto you have a series of stories. You want to argue over their real meaning or the size of the lips of Jesus or the length of his nose. Nah. Doesn't matter. Its the concept of doing good and helping others without bringing attention to oneself and expecting anything back is the only lesson to learn as well of course as treating people the way we would want to be treated. That simple and yet we make it so complex. Whether you want to call him son of God or just a human it doesn't change those basic rules. The fact people have used Christiuanity to enslave and subject others is something all religions do and have done.

    Me I avoid formal religious gatherings. The closet you would get me to "God" is cleaning a toilet, sweeping a floor, helping someone. That is it. I avoid organized rituals. It leads to no good. You get these mean with beards that want to have sex and grab your money and tell you that if you
    don't worship their words you go to booga booga land. No thanks. The closest I am came to worship[ping anyone was either athletes when I was a kid or Mrs. Emma Peel from the Avengers (Diana Rigg) or Jaqueline Bisset back in the 60's. I knew Liberace was the anti Christ.
    “Oh come on”, “You need to ease up a tad”, “Lol, ease up”. Repeated three times, but I’m the uptight one. Uh huh.

    Anyway, your last two paragraphs tell us that you don’t care one whit about Christianity, or God for that matter, so your supposedly laid-back reactions to the thread are rather meaningless. As is your opinion of why Jake wrote it in the first place.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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  10. #21
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    el-mika is correct

    too many so-called Christians are hung up on a white looking Jesus

    he wasn't unless he was a half-Roman bastard, which one of my professors believed, but he believed a lot of nonsense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    Maybe the two of you should get together for a little love fest. Opposites attract, no?

    I have a sound need to note what I expel from my arse .

    But I do not fall in love with it .

    And the wise person seeks resonators not just attractors .imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeStarkey View Post
    el-mika is correct

    too many so-called Christians are hung up on a white looking Jesus

    he wasn't unless he was a half-Roman bastard, which one of my professors believed, but he believed a lot of nonsense
    FTR, I don’t think Jesus looked like a Northern European, nor do I care. And as some of us have expressed, neither does the overwhelming majority of Christians.

    He was born and lived where he did because it fulfilled the prophecy that he would come from the line of David, and he was sent to minister directly to God’s chosen people.
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey Marie View Post
    FTR, I don’t think Jesus looked like a Northern European, nor do I care. And as some of us have expressed, neither does the overwhelming majority of Christians.

    He was born and lived where he did because it fulfilled the prophecy that he would come from the line of David, and he was sent to minister directly to God’s chosen people.
    No one said "the overwhelming majority of Christians," just that are too many who do, and that is fact.

    Yep, and the line of David must have been Semitic looking as they came.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeStarkey View Post
    No one said "the overwhelming majority of Christians," just that are too many who do, and that is fact.

    Yep, and the line of David must have been Semitic looking as they came.
    Yup, Semitic. Like the actor whose photo I posted. No Bible-reading Christian could ever claim otherwise. That was my point.

    Can you link us up to the “facts” that prove many Christians have racist views on Jesus’ skin color?
    After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown

    “Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
    -Abbey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mika-El View Post
    Oh come on. This is a discussion forum. The sole point was to raise an issue that has been discussed many a time and that is the institutionalized racist assumptions in Christianity. Its not meant to attack whites, Christians or divide anyone. Its simply a point made to people who use religion to justify thinking they are superior to others.Hey I am Jewish I did not assume the article was presumptuous saying "we" believe in Jesus.

    You need to ease up just a tad. If anything you are causing the division.

    Lol ease up. If there was a Jesus he's probably not what anyone imagines he was anyways.We are relying on many times removed stories from the actual events complete with the editorials, biases, censorship of the writers of the New Testament acting under the orders of King Constantine to merge pagan and Christian beliefs to avoid a civil war and create an institution (confession) so he could keep on eye on what people were thinking.

    Geez just translating Armaic, Hebrew, Greek and Latin back and for the would have distorted half the words/.Then throw in the political biases and agenda of the writers being instructed by Constantine and you get quite a hybrid of confusing stories.

    I myself always found it somewhat amusing seeing Jesus depicted as a blonde haired, blue eyed Aryan. I am sure he had a big hook nose and flared large nostrils and looked like a camel. So what.Come on people who have beards and sandals are crazy who think Bernie Saunders is the Messiah or even worse Donald Trump. Did you see those guys on Capital hill?
    Was Jesus Real a real historical person

    From a skeptical historian
    Bart D. Ehrman: Did Jesus Exist?
    Bart Ehrman
    Quote:
    ....But historians can never dismiss sources simply because they are biased. You may not trust Rush Limbaugh's views of Sandra Fluke, but he certainly provides evidence that she exists.

    The question is not whether sources are biased but whether biased sources can be used to yield historically reliable information, once their biased chaff is separated from the historical kernel.
    And historians have devised ways of doing just that....

    ...With respect to Jesus, we have numerous, independent accounts of his life in the sources lying behind the Gospels (and the writings of Paul) -- sources that originated in Jesus' native tongue Aramaic and that can be dated to within just a year or two of his life (before the religion moved to convert pagans in droves). Historical sources like that are is pretty astounding for an ancient figure of any kind. Moreover, we have relatively extensive writings from one first-century author, Paul, who acquired his information within a couple of years of Jesus' life and who actually knew, first hand, Jesus' closest disciple Peter and his own brother James. If Jesus did not exist, you would think his brother would know it.

    Moreover, the claim that Jesus was simply made up falters on every ground. The alleged parallels between Jesus and the "pagan" savior-gods in most instances reside in the modern imagination: We do not have accounts of others who were born to virgin mothers and who died as an atonement for sin and then were raised from the dead (despite what the sensationalists claim ad nauseum in their propagandized versions). ..."


    "We have more evidence for Jesus than for nearly every others person of his time period."

    Last edited by revelarts; 10-01-2021 at 12:55 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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  17. #27
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    Tsk tsk ... arguing about Jesus. Jesus was an Arab (semite) and a Jew. Our definition of "racism" as it is used like a buggy whip today has nothing to do with the reason Jesus was "turned white". What is going to appeal to a race a white people? A little brown guy? Or Jeffrey Hunter?

    Whoever mention Constantine is probably closest to correct. Jesus is depicted in the ceiling of the Sisteine Chapel as white. It's probably a Roman thing. Thise damned racist Romans.

    Here's a thought: Jesus was the physical manifestation of God as Man. If one remembers Him by His skin color rather than his teachings and works, then one is missing the message. In MY opinion.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mika-El View Post
    ....

    Lol ease up. If there was a Jesus he's probably not what anyone imagines he was anyways. We are relying on many times removed stories from the actual events complete with the editorials, biases, censorship of the writers of the New Testament acting under the orders of King Constantine to merge pagan and Christian beliefs to avoid a civil war and create an institution (confession) so he could keep on eye on what people were thinking.

    Geez just translating Armaic, Hebrew, Greek and Latin back and for the would have distorted half the words/.Then throw in the political biases and agenda of the writers being instructed by Constantine and you get quite a hybrid of confusing stories.

    ....
    Not sure where you got your info from. But there's a lot of loose and INCOMPLETE "info" and ideas floating around about the history of the new testament.
    But If you're really interested in where we get the Bible we have today, and whether or not it's reliable or compares to what the Apostles wrote originally, here's some information to start your research.
    Do we have the correct New Testament Text? Gary Habermas at The Veritas Forum


    FYI comparison info on Dates and number of copies of ancient historical docs.

    The earliest (fragmented) manuscripts of Plato’s Dialogues date from the 2nd to 4th century AD. But the complete manuscripts date from about 900 AD. Plato died in 437 or 348 AD. That’s quite a gap (some 1250 years).
    Jesus died 30 AD there are New testament fragments dating to the early 100s. But no one doubts Plato’s or Socrates’ existence or words. Socrates, like Jesus, is not known to have written anything, either. Other people recorded his words (precisely as in the case of Jesus).


    Dr. Richard M. Fales analyzes the massive differences in the comparative evidence:
    •Aristotle’s Ode to Poetics was written between 384 and322 B.C. The earliest copy of this work dates A.D. 1100, and there are only forty-nine extant manuscripts. The gap between the original writing and the earliest copy is 1,400 years.
    •There are only seven extant manuscripts of Plato’s Tetralogies, written 427–347 B.C. The earliest copy is A.D. 900—a gap of over 1,200 years.
    •For Caesar’s Gallic War (composed between 58 and 50BC) there are several extant MSS, but only nine or ten are good, and the oldest is some 900 years later than Caesar’s day.
    •Of the fourteen books of the Histories of Tacitus (c. AD100) only four and a half survive; of the sixteen books of his Annals, ten survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of has two great historical works depends entirely on two MSS, one of the ninth century (800 years later)and one of the eleventh (1000 years later).
    • History of Herodotus (c. 488-428 BC). the earliest MSS of their works which are of any use to us are over 1,300 years later than the originals

    What about the New Testament?
    •Jesus was crucified in A.D. 30. The New Testament was written between A.D. 48 and 95. The oldest manuscripts date to the last quarter of the first century, and the second oldest A.D. 125. This gives us a narrow gap of thirty-five to forty years from the originals written by the apostles.
    •From the early centuries, we have some 5,300 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Altogether, including Syriac, Latin,Coptic, and Aramaic, we have a whopping 24,633 texts of the ancient New Testament to confirm the wording of the Scriptures.

    So the bottom line is, there was no great period between the events of the New Testament and the New Testament writings. Nor is there a great time lapse between the original writings and the oldest copies we have available today.
    And the number of copies for comparison and review of the accuracy of the text is staggeringly more than any other ancient documents.

    Michael Grant, a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, Professor of Humanity at Edinburgh University, and President and Vice Chancellor of the Queens University, Belfast, holds doctorates from Cambridge, Dublin and Belfast and is the author of numerous books, among them "The Twelve Caesars", and "The Army of the Caesars". In his book "Jesus: An Historian’s Review of the"Gospels", he fully admits,
    “But if we apply the same sort of criteria that we would apply to any other ancient literary sources, then the evidence is firm and plausible enough to necessitate the conclusion that the tomb was indeed found empty.”19
    But he does not believe in the Resurrection:
    “Who had taken the body? There is no way of knowing.... at all events, it was gone.” 20
    Yet he proceeds to show how the subsequent events of Christian history astonish the historian,
    “For by conquering the Roman Empire in the fourth century A.D., Christianity had conquered the entire Western World, for century after century that lay ahead. In a triumph that has been hailed by its advocates as miraculous, and must be regarded by historians, too, as one of the most astonishing phenomena in the history of the world, the despised, reviled Galilean became the Lord of countless millions of people over the course of the1900 years and more between his age and ours.” 21

    Sir Frederic Kenyon, Director and Principal Librarian of the British museum, a palaeographer, biblical and classical scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none:
    ‘The interval then between the data of original composition and the earliest extant evidence become so small to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scripture have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’

    A couple of Lawyer's Take:
    John Singleton Copley(Lord Lyndhurst) is recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history. He was Solicitor General of the British government, Attorney General of Great Britain, three times the High Chancellor of England and elected High Steward of the University of Cambridge. He challenges,
    “I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has never broken down yet.”

    Simon Greenleaf was the author of the classic three-volume text, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence which, according to Dr. Wilbur Smith “is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature on legal procedure.” Greenleaf himself is considered one of the greatest authorities on common-law evidence in Western history. In his book "Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice", Greenleaf writes:
    All that Christianity asks of men... is, that they would be consistent with themselves; that they would treat its evidences as they treat the evidence of other things; and that they would try and judge its actors and witnesses, as they deal with their fellow men, when testifying to human affairs and actions, in human tribunals. Let the witnesses [to the Resurrection] be compared with themselves, with each other, and with surrounding facts and circumstances; and let their testimony be sifted, as if it were given in a court of justice, on the side of the adverse party, the witness being subjected to a rigorous cross-examination. The result, it is confidently believed, will be an undoubting conviction of their integrity, ability and truth.
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-01-2021 at 12:43 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbey Marie View Post
    This is the actor who plays Jesus in the series “The Chosen”. I think he looks quite appropriate.

    Btw, great show.

    Attachment 13585
    I loved that show, and loved watching it with you @Abbey Marie
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 - A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but a foolish man's heart directs him to the left.
    Wise men don't need advice, and fools won't take it - Ben Franklin
    "It's not how you start, it's how you finish."

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    But yes, saying we shouldn't care what race Jesus is is exactly right.
    But saying that NO ONE cares is false.
    The fact that Jesus's "race" leans heavy toward brown is, in fact, a blow to some folks BS racial pride. And for others it a BS source of racial pride.
    Neither sentiment is "Christian".

    Fact is, more than few Christians, of ALL races, still have to overcome various levels of sinful ideas and feeling about other "races". And learn to REALLY see everyone as brothers and sisters, FAMILY. ALL Made in the image of God. (which means God is mixed race or maybe race doesn't matter concerning his image.)
    Well put. If anyone actually gives it some honest thought, they have to conclude that Jesus probably looked like the people of Israel look now. They'd also have to conclude that it doesn't really matter.
    I'd agree with your second statement, Rev, that race doesn't matter concerning his image.
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 - A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but a foolish man's heart directs him to the left.
    Wise men don't need advice, and fools won't take it - Ben Franklin
    "It's not how you start, it's how you finish."

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