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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Sorry, "single digit benefit" with a distinct difference between those two numbers. For example there's a single digit difference between 1 and 9 but there's an 800% difference between the two numbers. Over 3 and under 1 is a not insignificant difference.



    I was presented with a raw assertion that India is on the Ivermectin bandwagon and based on what I found it is no longer true if it ever was. I also quoted some studies which showed no statistical difference in treatment outcomes with Ivermectin and without. So my raw assertion stands along with the fact that there is a larger number of obese in this country who probably insist that drinking Diet Coke gives them a positive outcome. So, to get those people, and the mass population, to adopt Ivermectin over a two shot vaccine is a fools errand.



    Show me some links to actual studies please. I've seen plenty of crap in video form on the internet.



    How did you know that I simultaneously own and work for Pfizer, Moderna, and Janssen selling my wares to any unsuspecting independent thinker getting them on the vaccine bandwagon with the knowledge that I'm protected from lawsuits from aforementioned suckers!!!!!!!!!!! BwahhahahahahaajrWE;KJHFASD'LK.

    Believe what you like. Each of your points can be, and have been, refuted or at the very least aren't as cut and dry as you want them to be. So go ahead and get on your bandwagon of getting everyone on a diet. Because that'll work.

    Evil bastard. Didn't even let any of us in on the ground floor either
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Evil bastard. Didn't even let any of us in on the ground floor either
    Pshaw. What kind of globalist shill do you think I am. back at ya.



    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Sorry, "single digit benefit" with a distinct difference between those two numbers. For example there's a single digit difference between 1 and 9 but there's an 800% difference between the two numbers. Over 3 and under 1 is a not insignificant difference.
    isn't the "difference" between 1 and 2.... 100%!!!!

    So you want to look at the "difference" between 2 and 5 rather than as presented... 2 and 5... per 100,000?
    In math class "the difference" may be part of an honest answer, but in real life the factor of 100,000 makes THE DIFFERENCE... and you know it FJ?



    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I was presented with a raw assertion that India is on the Ivermectin bandwagon and based on what I found it is no longer true if it ever was. I also quoted some studies which showed no statistical difference in treatment outcomes with Ivermectin and without. So my raw assertion stands along with the fact that there is a larger number of obese in this country who probably insist that drinking Diet Coke gives them a positive outcome. So, to get those people, and the mass population, to adopt Ivermectin over a two shot vaccine is a fools errand.
    your assertion was false.
    And if the gov't and companies MANDATED walking 30 minutes on the job/school everyday OR NO JOB, NO SCHOOL, NO entry in bakeries, bars, or fast food places I suspect more than few would do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Show me some links to actual studies please. I've seen plenty of crap in video form on the internet.
    there are all the links to studies needed in the post,
    If you'd actually taken time to look rather than assume there are none you would have seen them.
    But here's one of the links embedded in the post before.
    http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...323#post987323

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    How did you know that I simultaneously own and work for Pfizer, Moderna, and Janssen selling my wares to any unsuspecting independent thinker getting them on the vaccine bandwagon with the knowledge that I'm protected from lawsuits from aforementioned suckers!!!!!!!!!!! BwahhahahahahaajrWE;KJHFASD'LK.
    Just as i suspected.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Believe what you like. Each of your points can be, and have been, refuted or at the very least aren't as cut and dry as you want them to be. So go ahead and get on your bandwagon of getting everyone on a diet. Because that'll work.
    Each of the points have been denied.. but not refuted
    several of my points have been ignored in your reply not refuted
    All the "vaccines" are New and NO ONE has a CLUE of their long term side effects. this is a FACT.
    unrefuted
    All the "vaccines" are displaying horrible side effects in all age groups, many have been downplayed, dismissed and censored. this is a FACT.
    unrefuted
    The vaccine risk to benefits ratio for people under 40 is low to ZERO. this is a FACT.
    Especially in the light of the unknown long term side effects and known(admitted) heart issues.

    downplayed but unrefuted
    the vaccines don't stop transmission,
    unrefuted
    they don't stop infection
    unrefuted
    and they are low benefit since MOST people, 98+%, recover anyway,
    downplayed but unrefuted
    and for the percentage of those it might help the help is LOW.
    games played with stats

    AND there are other safer treatments AND things like raising vitamin D levels and lowering body weight will lower chances of hospitalizations and death ...for the masses.... by a greater degree.
    Info proving this is censored, downplayed, ignored and mocked ... but never fully debated or refuted.


    As i said before, taken together the argument FOR vaccines is WEAK at best.
    However the propaganda for them is EXTREMELY STRONG. (and the censorship/suppression of information is real)
    Trying to access things objectively in this climate is not easy for anyone.
    Last edited by revelarts; 01-12-2022 at 06:36 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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  6. #34
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    “The death rate in a given country depends a lot on the age structure, who are the people infected, and how they are managed,” Ioannidis said.
    “For people younger than 45,
    the infection fatality rate is almost 0%
    .
    For 45 to 70, it is probably about 0.05%-0.3%.
    For those above 70, it escalates substantially.”
    Stanford University's disease prevention chairman Dr. John Ioannidis


    Vaccines Benefits vs Risk for those under 40 is basically ZERO.
    that is a fact.


    the case for vaccines as a "mass solution" is WEAK at best.
    (for a massive 'final solution' that remains to be seen)
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    isn't the "difference" between 1 and 2.... 100%!!!!

    So you want to look at the "difference" between 2 and 5 rather than as presented... 2 and 5... per 100,000?
    In math class "the difference" may be part of an honest answer, but in real life the factor of 100,000 makes THE DIFFERENCE... and you know it FJ?
    And it's the difference at the margins that makes all the impact. Medical costs are higher, covid patients are hospitalized, non-covid procedures are delayed, etc. Once things start going sideways then it's the difference that causes the problems. Start multiplying 100,000 times the population, times a difference of potentially 4... Let me know how that comes out because we've seen how various surges impact hospitals, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    your assertion was false.
    And if the gov't and companies MANDATED walking 30 minutes on the job/school everyday OR NO JOB, NO SCHOOL, NO entry in bakeries, bars, or fast food places I suspect more than few would do it.
    Whatever dude. I'll put you down in the government mandate column.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    there are all the links to studies needed in the post,
    If you'd actually taken time to look rather than assume there are none you would have seen them.
    But here's one of the links embedded in the post before.
    http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...323#post987323
    Great, we've all got studies. Some of yours and some of mine are probably valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Just as i suspected.
    I've finally outed myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Each of the points have been denied.. but not refuted
    several of my points have been ignored in your reply not refuted
    All the "vaccines" are New and NO ONE has a CLUE of their long term side effects. this is a FACT.
    unrefuted
    All the "vaccines" are displaying horrible side effects in all age groups, many have been downplayed, dismissed and censored. this is a FACT.
    unrefuted
    The vaccine risk to benefits ratio for people under 40 is low to ZERO. this is a FACT.
    Especially in the light of the unknown long term side effects and known(admitted) heart issues.

    downplayed but unrefuted
    the vaccines don't stop transmission,
    unrefuted
    they don't stop infection
    unrefuted
    and they are low benefit since MOST people, 98+%, recover anyway,
    downplayed but unrefuted
    and for the percentage of those it might help the help is LOW.
    games played with stats

    AND there are other safer treatments AND things like raising vitamin D levels and lowering body weight will lower chances of hospitalizations and death ...for the masses.... by a greater degree.
    Info proving this is censored, downplayed, ignored and mocked ... but never fully debated or refuted.


    As i said before, taken together the argument FOR vaccines is WEAK at best.
    However the propaganda for them is EXTREMELY STRONG. (and the censorship/suppression of information is real)
    Trying to access things objectively in this climate is not easy for anyone.
    Beliefs aren't facts.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  8. #36
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    Another website for you to dismiss Fj

    https://www.realnotrare.com
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Another website for you to dismiss Fj

    https://www.realnotrare.com
    I suppose I can dismiss it because others dismiss 90+% of the rest of the internet. :shrug:
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Each of the points have been denied.. but not refuted
    several of my points have been ignored in your reply not refuted
    All the "vaccines" are New and NO ONE has a CLUE of their long term side effects. this is a FACT.
    unrefuted


    We have track records for other vaccines and track records of vaccines in general.

    https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/covid-19-vaccine-long-term-side-effects

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    All the "vaccines" are displaying horrible side effects in all age groups, many have been downplayed, dismissed and censored. this is a FACT.
    unrefuted


    Correlation, causation. blah blah blah. Let's have someone do a study.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    The vaccine risk to benefits ratio for people under 40 is low to ZERO. this is a FACT.
    Especially in the light of the unknown long term side effects and known(admitted) heart issues.

    downplayed but unrefuted

    Table 2: Age-specific case rates by vaccination status, Jan. 15, 2021 – Oct. 1, 2021AgeGroupNumber ofUnvaccinated Peoplewith Positive COVID19 ELRsRate per100,000inUnvaccinatedPeopleNumber of FullyVaccinated Peoplewith Positive COVID19 ELRsRate per100,000 in FullyVaccinatedPeople
    Impact
    12-17years171,418 11,342.25 1,748 175.90 65 times higherin unvaccinated
    18-29years
    338,288 12,700.31 7,236 311.63 41 times higherin unvaccinated
    30-39years263,206 13,725.76 8,315 369.27 37 times higherin unvaccinated

    https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/cases-and-deaths-by-vaccination-status-11082021.pdf

    link to table on page 3. It came from TX; it must be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    the vaccines don't stop transmission,
    unrefuted


    I'm not sure of anyone who says it stops transmission 100%. I am living proof. The question is outcome. See study above.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post

    they don't stop infection
    unrefuted


    I'm not sure of anyone who says it stops infection 100%. I am living proof. The question is outcome. See study above.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post

    and they are low benefit since MOST people, 98+%, recover anyway,
    downplayed but unrefuted


    Explain that to the people who didn't recover.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post

    and for the percentage of those it might help the help is LOW.
    games played with stats


    A doubling, trebling, or quadrupling of the statistics may seem low if it's in the single digits but when you double something at the extreme it can make something even more critical. That's not a "game."

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post


    AND there are other safer treatments AND things like raising vitamin D levels and lowering body weight will lower chances of hospitalizations and death ...for the masses.... by a greater degree.
    Info proving this is censored, downplayed, ignored and mocked ... but never fully debated or refuted.
    The masses? That'll never happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    As i said before, taken together the argument FOR vaccines is WEAK at best.
    However the propaganda for them is EXTREMELY STRONG. (and the censorship/suppression of information is real)
    Trying to access things objectively in this climate is not easy for anyone.
    You have your beliefs. I have mine.
    Last edited by fj1200; 01-15-2022 at 08:42 PM.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  11. #39
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    I will take that question. I am fully vaxxed and I question the effectiveness of the vaccine. I am an engineer, I deal specifically with data. Data speaks volumes and anomalies in data should stand out be evaluated.

    In statistical process management and control you evaluate anomalous outcomes but not all outcomes mean you modify your processes. In the case of these vaccines, which only meet the definition of the term tangentially, nobody is even willing to honestly look at the outcomes because the government is squashing any effort to consider any kind of review.

    The modern left has control of the government and the media. Any question is immediately met with “the vaccines are safe and effective” as if any review is anathema and will poison the well from which we all drink. I have never seen a propaganda effort like this, ever.

    Twitter and Facebook immediately tag anyone asking a question or posting even a positive story with a propaganda tag about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. Something is afoot and the censorship and limitation of free discourse never comes from a good place.

    Since there is a lack of ability to question outcomes nobody really knows WHAT the outcomes are at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Well, I guess we can both have our own intuitive reviews but I'll go with my intuition until whatever shows me otherwise based on my subjective opinion on the quality of what I've seen. But without getting on the merry-go-round again I feel the need to ask; Do you think the vaccines are a net positive, net negative, or inconsequential in treating COVID?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F Buckley, Jr

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  13. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoogyMan View Post
    I will take that question. I am fully vaxxed and I question the effectiveness of the vaccine. I am an engineer, I deal specifically with data. Data speaks volumes and anomalies in data should stand out be evaluated.

    In statistical process management and control you evaluate anomalous outcomes but not all outcomes mean you modify your processes. In the case of these vaccines, which only meet the definition of the term tangentially, nobody is even willing to honestly look at the outcomes because the government is squashing any effort to consider any kind of review.

    The modern left has control of the government and the media. Any question is immediately met with “the vaccines are safe and effective” as if any review is anathema and will poison the well from which we all drink. I have never seen a propaganda effort like this, ever.

    Twitter and Facebook immediately tag anyone asking a question or posting even a positive story with a propaganda tag about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. Something is afoot and the censorship and limitation of free discourse never comes from a good place.

    Since there is a lack of ability to question outcomes nobody really knows WHAT the outcomes are at this point.
    I'm definitely not one to argue the specifics of statistics but I think what we have shows that they have been effective. Not that being vaccinated kept me from getting it but I think people who do get it fair better than not. I won't argue that they government and big media goes to far in advocating, or suppressing, but I will argue that there are those way to the other end of the spectrum that do essentially the same thing. Where's the reality? Somewhere in the middle as with many things but our tribalistic ways these days do not allow meaningful discussion.

    So I'm on the net positive side of things and one of the links I saw in one of these threads mentioned that epidemiologists predicted, with viruses generally, that they mutate into less severe and more easily transmittable variants. I think that is playing out and hopefully will continue to and I'm hoping, predicting, that come summer time it will become common policy to just deal with covid as with any other virus that plagues us. I think the vaccine will end up being a useful bridge from the severe to the less severe.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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