Court-martial of officer who refused to go to Iraq begins

[Yurt]

I hope he gets off, but if not, a couple of years at most in the slammer. Giving him the death penalty would be way over the top. Same with life imprisonment. If he gets either of those, I hope it is headline news, which hopefully would mean a sharp drop in folks joining the military.

So then you support the law being ignored? Or is it only when is suits you?




*loves smilies*

[pegwinn]

I hope he gets off, but if not, a couple of years at most in the slammer. Giving him the death penalty would be way over the top. Same with life imprisonment. If he gets either of those, I hope it is headline news, which hopefully would mean a sharp drop in folks joining the military.

You have the right to be an apologist for the antiwar zealots. Heck, I spent a long time helping to ensure that right. But, a couple of years if found guilty would send the wrong message.

You indicated you were not American. Where are you from?

[jillian]

The fact of the matter is, Watada refused to deploy with his unit. He's admitted to such. That's missing movement, and it's a major violation of the UCMJ. I fully expect him to be found guilty.

And, for what it's worth, the trial is going on literally above my head.

Just for argument's sake. You know at a war crime trial, the Neuremberg defense of "I was just following orders" doesn't fly. Also, a soldier has an obligation to disobey an illegal order, no? Now this man is willing to put his future on the line because of his beliefs, right or wrong. Isn't that what we wished they did in Nazi Germany? (And, no I'm not comparing this wars to what Germany did. I'm just raising an issue).

[Mr. P]

I hope he gets off, but if not, a couple of years at most in the slammer. Giving him the death penalty would be way over the top. Same with life imprisonment. If he gets either of those, I hope it is headline news, which hopefully would mean a sharp drop in folks joining the military.

Me too, BIG HEADLINES, then everyone can see that an oath is an oath and duty is duty, and not to be dismissed or taken for ones convenience or used for personal gain.

Knowing that, maybe the enlistment would even rise. After all, integrity and honor are hard to find on the block (or in society, as a civilian would say) these days.

When you accept Duty, Honor, Country, you commit to it.

I hope he gets at least 20.

[pegwinn]

Just for argument's sake. You know at a war crime trial, the Neuremberg defense of "I was just following orders" doesn't fly. Also, a soldier has an obligation to disobey an illegal order, no? Now this man is willing to put his future on the line because of his beliefs, right or wrong. Isn't that what we wished they did in Nazi Germany? (And, no I'm not comparing this wars to what Germany did. I'm just raising an issue).

When a service member uses that defense it is up to him to prove it. Kind of like the insanity defense in a civil criminal court. Orders are presumed to be lawful and so the prosecution isn't required to prove they were.

That defense will not fly. It's already been tried by other, lesser, types.

[jillian]

When a service member uses that defense it is up to him to prove it. Kind of like the insanity defense in a civil criminal court. Orders are presumed to be lawful and so the prosecution isn't required to prove they were.

That defense will not fly. It's already been tried by other, lesser, types.

Well, for what it's worth, I think he's going to lose and I think he's going to spend the next 20 years locked up. But I respect his putting his money where mouth is and laying it on the line. I think he took the risk of losing when he made his choice. But part of me hopes he wins because so many young lives would be saved.

[darin]

Well, for what it's worth, I think he's going to lose and I think he's going to spend the next 20 years locked up.

His max sentence is 4 years.

But I respect his putting his money where mouth is and laying it on the line. I think he took the risk of losing when he made his choice. But part of me hopes he wins because so many young lives would be saved.

Care to explain how him being allowed to refuse a lawful order would save lives?

[Grumplestillskin]

How could he NOT be convicted?

He was 'ordered to MOVE with his unit' - He remains here. (shrug).

I guess so.

[Gunny]

I hope he gets off, but if not, a couple of years at most in the slammer. Giving him the death penalty would be way over the top. Same with life imprisonment. If he gets either of those, I hope it is headline news, which hopefully would mean a sharp drop in folks joining the military.

He won't get off, nor will he get the death penalty. Missing movement, even during a time of war does not merit the death penalty. Maximum penalty for

Viol Art 87, Missing movement, is foreiture of all pay and allowances, dishonorable dishcharge and 2 years confinement.

Viol Art 92, Failure to obey an order, max punishment is the same as Art 87.

Viol Art 133, Conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman, Dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for a period not in excess of that authorized for the most analogous (similar) offense for which a punishment is prescribed in this Manual (UCMJ), or, if none is prescribed, for 1 year.

[Grumplestillskin]

So then you support the law being ignored? Or is it only when is suits you?




*loves smilies*

Throughout history there have been bad laws...

[Grumplestillskin]

You have the right to be an apologist for the antiwar zealots. Heck, I spent a long time helping to ensure that right. But, a couple of years if found guilty would send the wrong message.

I am far from an apologist for antiwar zealots. In some instances I am very much for war. Iraq is not one of these instances. This is not Monday morning quarterbacking from my perspective either. I have said the same well before the invasion, during the invasion, and certainly since the invasion. This was a bad idea from the get go. All the bad stuff that has followed I mentioned (On other boards obviously) would happen, has happened.
I agree re the wrong message - that being, if you live in the land of the free, once you join the military you are not truly free.

[Dilloduck]

I am far from an apologist for antiwar zealots. In some instances I am very much for war. Iraq is not one of these instances. This is not Monday morning quarterbacking from my perspective either. I have said the same well before the invasion, during the invasion, and certainly since the invasion. This was a bad idea from the get go. All the bad stuff that has followed I mentioned (On other boards obviously) would happen, has happened.
I agree re the wrong message - that being, if you live in the land of the free, once you join the military you are not truly free.

Why would you actually HOPE that enlistment drops ?

[Grumplestillskin]

Me too, BIG HEADLINES, then everyone can see that an oath is an oath and duty is duty, and not to be dismissed or taken for ones convenience or used for personal gain.

Knowing that, maybe the enlistment would even rise. After all, integrity and honor are hard to find on the block (or in society, as a civilian would say) these days.

When you accept Duty, Honor, Country, you commit to it.

I hope he gets at least 20.

Taking an oath doesn't mean you follow like a lemming an order that you know in your heart is wrong.

As for duty, honour and country, having a CIC dedicated to neither doesn't help the cause IMO...

What personal gain has Watada had due to his stance I'd say, if anything, he has lost, not gained a thing.

[darin]

Taking an oath doesn't mean you follow like a lemming an order that you know in your heart is wrong.

As for duty, honour and country, having a CIC dedicated to neither doesn't help the cause IMO...

What personal gain has Watada had due to his stance I'd say, if anything, he has lost, not gained a thing.

Guidelines are in place to help soldiers who feel they are following an Illegal order. God help them if they cannot back up their 'heart of hearts'.

What gain? remains to be seen. I just hope when he writes his book, he spells my name correctly. I bet this guy runs for office some day.

[Pale Rider]

I agree re the wrong message - that being, if you live in the land of the free, once you join the military you are not truly free.

Of course you're not. You're a G.I.. i.e., "government issue", and you carry the designation XB3, which means "throw away", "dispensable". That's the way it is in military. You're expected to lay down your life in battle if called to do so. It's not up to some cocky little lieutenant to tell the entire United States Army to go fuck themselves just because his cushy job state side comes to an end. He KNEW he might have to go, so why did he get himself in that situation? Was he gambling with the possibility that he might not ever have to go? Not smart if true.

In any case, his ass is in a world of trouble now. He should have thought about this BEFORE he got himself into the position where he might be called to war.