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    Default Why Are Most People Cowards? Obedience and Rise of Authoritarianism



    Interesting. 12 minutes
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    great video Gunny

    .... Factors That Influence Obedience

    Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
    The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
    The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
    The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
    Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
    The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.

    Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

    More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

    In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:
    How much the individual agrees with the orders
    How much they identify with the person giving the orders

    While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

    https://www.verywellmind.com/the-mil...riment-2795243
    Last edited by revelarts; 07-31-2023 at 05:13 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

    One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

    Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

    One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

    Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.
    I am with you, your description describes me my friend. I use my inner moral compass constantly. The hospital my wife was in would not let me in to see her the entire month she was there - why? Because I refused to go get a damn Covid shot!! I will never forget that bullshit. She died 4 months later.
    How many times did things like this happen to others? ----Tyr
    Last edited by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot; 08-01-2023 at 06:53 AM.
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

    One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

    Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.

    evil fears moral people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

    One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

    Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.



    Sassy's Bosses

    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHZ View Post
    evil fears moral people.
    the banality of evil sucks a lot of people in.
    slippery slope... ...'2 weeks to slow the spread' - becomes- 'dont let them buy food or health care & lets take their children'

    Also Some folks don't like having people who won't compromise around.
    At least partly because it makes them uncomfortable with their own compromise, & 'go along to get along', 'everybody's doing it', 'the boss said it's ok', 'im just following orders', mindset.

    We're all susceptible to it, being with some crowd is basically everyone's default. God made us social creatures, but He also gave us all moral light to follow & critical thinking skills. So the excuses don't fly. And we know it... sooner or later.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    great video Gunny

    .... Factors That Influence Obedience

    Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
    The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
    The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
    The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
    Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
    The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.

    Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

    More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

    In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:
    How much the individual agrees with the orders
    How much they identify with the person giving the orders

    While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

    https://www.verywellmind.com/the-mil...riment-2795243
    I posted this over a year ago. I'll have to watch it again.

    Meantime, some interesting responses
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    great video Gunny

    .... Factors That Influence Obedience

    Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
    The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
    The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
    The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
    Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
    The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.

    Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

    More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

    In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:
    How much the individual agrees with the orders
    How much they identify with the person giving the orders

    While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

    https://www.verywellmind.com/the-mil...riment-2795243
    yes. there is always free will.

    there is always a choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post


    Interesting. 12 minutes
    The problem with this argument is it presents extremes. It does not address the middle ground. Automatons vs nonconformists. Society is created so that 2 or more people can live peacefully together. The opposite of that is anarchy. Each and every one of us is a product of and uses our current society.

    Starting with nonconformists, the vast majority are full of shit. I'm bad. I'm this. I'm that. No. If one is all that bad, drop everything you have that this society has provided you and walk out naked into the wilderness. Provide your own food, clothing and shelter.

    Fact is, these "nonconformists" aren't nonconformist at all. What they want is for society to conform to their rules and regs rather that the ones society has. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want all the amenities society has to off, but they want them their way. The only difference between them and the power brokers that control government is they have no power.

    The automatons don't want to think. They haven't been taught to, by design. They want the government to think for them and provided them everything, cradle to grave. They conform less to what is beneficial to society than they do what "the rest" think is cool at the time. And if you don't think it's cool too then you suck and are to be persecuted. They are conditioned from birth to think as they do. They make up the majority regardless political party affiliation because not only are they conditioned to, it's the easy way. The dirtiest 4-letter word in our vocabulary currently is "work".

    The government is as good or bad as the aforementioned allow it to be. As are the rules society chooses to follow. When people are careless with their freedom and squander it, most assuredly someone will come along and take it.

    A specific the narrator mentions is Peskov, who I disagree with (his actions, not his views). I've said this before: one has to know what one believes is worth fighting for. So Peskov believed in a cause that put him in prison for 5 years, and cost his mother her job where jobs were hard to come by. He made his decision without regard to the effect it would have on others and that's just bullshit in my book and a lack of consideration and/or responsibility for those affected by one's actions.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    great video Gunny

    .... Factors That Influence Obedience

    Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
    The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
    The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
    The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
    Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
    The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.

    Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

    More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

    In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:
    How much the individual agrees with the orders
    How much they identify with the person giving the orders

    While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

    https://www.verywellmind.com/the-mil...riment-2795243
    Who were the people that participated in this study? Where from and how were they raised? Environment from birth matters.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    The problem with this argument is it presents extremes. It does not address the middle ground. Automatons vs nonconformists. Society is created so that 2 or more people can live peacefully together. The opposite of that is anarchy. Each and every one of us is a product of and uses our current society.

    Starting with nonconformists, the vast majority are full of shit. I'm bad. I'm this. I'm that. No. If one is all that bad, drop everything you have that this society has provided you and walk out naked into the wilderness. Provide your own food, clothing and shelter.

    Fact is, these "nonconformists" aren't nonconformist at all. What they want is for society to conform to their rules and regs rather that the ones society has. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want all the amenities society has to off, but they want them their way. The only difference between them and the power brokers that control government is they have no power.

    The automatons don't want to think. They haven't been taught to, by design. They want the government to think for them and provided them everything, cradle to grave. They conform less to what is beneficial to society than they do what "the rest" think is cool at the time. And if you don't think it's cool too then you suck and are to be persecuted. They are conditioned from birth to think as they do. They make up the majority regardless political party affiliation because not only are they conditioned to, it's the easy way. The dirtiest 4-letter word in our vocabulary currently is "work".

    The government is as good or bad as the aforementioned allow it to be. As are the rules society chooses to follow. When people are careless with their freedom and squander it, most assuredly someone will come along and take it.

    A specific the narrator mentions is Peskov, who I disagree with (his actions, not his views). I've said this before: one has to know what one believes is worth fighting for. So Peskov believed in a cause that put him in prison for 5 years, and cost his mother her job where jobs were hard to come by. He made his decision without regard to the effect it would have on others and that's just bullshit in my book and a lack of consideration and/or responsibility for those affected by one's actions.

    there should be no compromising with terrorists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post

    A specific the narrator mentions is Peskov, who I disagree with (his actions, not his views). I've said this before: one has to know what one believes is worth fighting for. So Peskov believed in a cause that put him in prison for 5 years, and cost his mother her job where jobs were hard to come by. He made his decision without regard to the effect it would have on others and that's just bullshit in my book and a lack of consideration and/or responsibility for those affected by one's actions.

    Gunny as someone who's been in the military.
    Aren't there times when certain missions put other groups of soldiers in more danger, but the ultimate goal is overall victory?

    I get what your saying but doesn't it really come down to a judgement call on the overall value that people are sacrificing for?

    Seems you didn't think what he was doing was "worth it'?
    Should we have to be guaranteed victory & and no pain to friend of family before we take a stand?
    Last edited by revelarts; 08-01-2023 at 01:35 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Gunny as someone who's been in the military.
    Aren't there times when certain missions put other groups of soldiers in more danger, but the ultimate goal is overall victory?

    I get what your saying but doesn't it really come down to a judgement call on the overall value that people are sacrificing for?

    Seems you didn't think what he was doing was "worth it'?
    Should we have to be guaranteed victory & and no pain to friend of family before we take a stand?

    evil always appeals to selfishness, and makes it a virtue actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHZ View Post
    evil always appeals to selfishness, and makes it a virtue actually.
    You know AHZ,
    calling everyone "evil" who doesn't agree with you exactly, isn't really a sensible way to talk to people.
    and not exactly rational man.

    just sayin'

    But hey if that's the track you want to run on.
    don't expect many to join you.
    Last edited by revelarts; 08-01-2023 at 02:27 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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