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    Default How we got herd immunity wrong

    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Who's "we"?
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Who's "we"?
    The medical experts.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Herd immunity was always our greatest asset for protecting vulnerable people, but public health failed to use it wisely.
    In March 2020, not long after Covid-19 was declared a global public health emergency, prominent experts predicted that the pandemic would eventually end via herd immunity. Infectious disease epidemiologist Michael Osterholm, who advised President Biden, opined in the Washington Post that even without a vaccine, SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19, would eventually “burn itself out as the spread of infection comes to confer a form of herd immunity.” The best strategy, he reasoned, was to “gradually build up immunity” by letting “those at low risk for serious disease continue to work” while higher-risk people sheltered and scientists developed treatments and, hopefully, vaccines.
    Experts in the United Kingdom also spoke early on of herd immunity acquired through infection as a protective force that would ultimately end the epidemic. Planning on SARS-CoV-2 eventually becoming endemic, epidemiologist Graham Medley suggested that the U.K.’s initial strategy should be to “manage this acquisition of herd immunity and minimise the exposure of people who are vulnerable.” The U.K.’s chief scientific adviser, Patrick Vallance, explained that the goal was to flatten the curve and “build up some kind of herd immunity” in order to “protect those who are most vulnerable to it.”
    Isn't that what happened?
    Last edited by fj1200; 08-18-2022 at 07:05 AM.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Isn't that what happened?
    Eventually. Could have been done sooner following the Barrington model but Fauci and Collins squashed it because it didn't fit their narrative of needing to sell the vaccine.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Isn't that what happened?
    Herd immunity is a theory that in practice does not work. It relies to much on selfless human beings (an oxymoron these days especially in our selfish society) doing what is best for the society as a whole rather than placing their own bullshit first.

    In theory, only those who cannot be vaccinated are not. Those that are ill actually self-isolate instead of running to a hospital (or WalMart) to spread the virus indiscriminately because no one counts but "I/Me".

    It's the same problem with most theories. They theory is fine until it runs into Man.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Herd immunity is a theory that in practice does not work. It relies to much on selfless human beings (an oxymoron these days especially in our selfish society) doing what is best for the society as a whole rather than placing their own bullshit first.

    In theory, only those who cannot be vaccinated are not. Those that are ill actually self-isolate instead of running to a hospital (or WalMart) to spread the virus indiscriminately because no one counts but "I/Me".

    It's the same problem with most theories. They theory is fine until it runs into Man.
    Yep! That's me! Selfish little bitch just going about my business thinking everyone should have the freedom to vaccinate or not. I did place my own bullshit first and, I'm OK with that.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    How Amish Communities Became The First To Achieve Covid "Herd Immunity" Without Higher Death Rate, Shutdown, Masks, Or Vaccines

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi..._may_2020.html
    "Full Measure" host Sharyl Attkisson traveled to Lancaster, Pennsylvania to see how Amish communities handled Covid-19 without electricity or television.
    "There's no evidence of any more deaths among the Amish than in places that shut down tight— some claim there were fewer here. That’s without masking, staying at home, or" vaccines, Attkisson reported.
    "Oh, we're glad all the English people got their Covid vaccines. That's great," one man said. "Because now we don't have to wear a mask, we can do what we want. So good for you. Thank you. We appreciate it. Us? No, we're not getting vaccines. Of course not. We all got the Covid, so why would you get a vaccine?"


    Amish community in Lancaster County reaches herd immunity from COVID-19, medical center says
    https://www.fox29.com/news/amish-com...al-center-says
    Experts at a New Holland Borough Healthcare Center said around 90% of households dealt with at least one coronavirus case after churches reopened last year.
    They said those households are now immune to the virus.


    those selfish Amish
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Published recently in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM),
    a study led by Massachusetts-based physician-scientists leads to a disturbing discovery:
    individuals fully vaccinated and boosted against COVID-19 actually recover markedly more slowly from the illness a
    nd surprisingly,
    even remain contagious for lengthier periods of time as compared to unvaccinated persons.

    While the study didn’t investigate implications associated with illness severity, the findings nonetheless raise significant questions for consideration.
    This study was approved by the institutional review board and the institutional biosafety committee at Mass General Brigham,
    and informed consent was obtained from all the participants. The takeaway from this study could be profound
    should the results scale out to larger cohorts. People that are vaccinated remain five times as contagious
    as those who are unvaccinated ten days after SARS-CoV-2 infection.
    Put another way, the vaccinated continue to transmit the disease significantly more than the unvaccinated should the data hold up across broader investigation.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2202092


    Large Israeli study: Natural immunity provides 13 times more protection against Delta than Pfizer's vaccine does

    https://hotair.com/allahpundit/2021/...e-does-n411863
    ...The surprise came when they compared the vaccinated group to the infected but unvaccinated group. Some scientists have speculated that vaccine immunity is actually superior to natural immunity in the belief that the shots produce a more diverse array of antibodies than infection does. That’s not what the Israelis found. Not only is natural immunity superior, it’s no contest. Especially in the age of Delta:...
    Last edited by revelarts; 08-19-2022 at 10:14 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    My concern with herd immunity is not only what Gunny said... but what about all of the ever changing strains? Will our bodies and prior infections do a damned thing to create herd immunity?

    I had covid 1 month and 20 days ago. I am told that my "immunity" after having it is really only good for about 3 months... Some research shows up to 6-8 months at best it appears. But then I have seen people supposedly get re-infected in much less time than that. So I'm unsure that folks getting the infection and building up our immune systems will work in the long run? They need to find a vaccine that somehow prevents infection.

    Now, of course the left has changed the definition of "vaccine", but I am referring to what we all previously knew a vaccine was.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    From what i've read/heard in this article & elsewhere
    With somthing like polio you can get solid herd immunity.
    But like with the flu not so much.
    and Flu SHOTS are given every year ... using a BEST GUESSED strain of the Flu Virus that year. If they guess wrong the shot gives no protection
    Unless the Flu strain is very similar and your bodies defense for that strain happens to handle the variant as well.
    Also the Shots have been shown to be less effective than high doses of Vitamin D which protect against all strains of flu every year.

    Covid is more like the Flu, and natural immunity seems to creates a defense that's broader & longer lasting than the various "vaccines".
    Broader in the sense that natural immunity's been shown to defend against the variants better than vaccines.
    (And variants only have limited range of change and this type usually DEGRADE rather than get stronger/worse.)

    Also some researchers have said that people that had SARS back in the 90s & 2000s still mount a defense against it today and (if memory serves) have immunity against SARS-CoV-2/covid19 today.

    the Covid shots/vaccines for some reason seems to have VERY limited range and duration. (IMHO if they do anything good)

    But like the Cold or Flu there is no real "vaccine" for it.
    Last edited by revelarts; 08-19-2022 at 11:59 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    I don't mind taking regular meds and vitamins to help beat such infections - I just don't want to croak - nor feel as horrid as I did last time! I hope getting infected will at least help that much for me, where it may be easier next battle with it.

    I know I started taking daily vitamins and vitamin D at 250% daily dosage.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyLady View Post
    Yep! That's me! Selfish little bitch just going about my business thinking everyone should have the freedom to vaccinate or not. I did place my own bullshit first and, I'm OK with that.
    I addressed a theory and how it theoretically works, and practically does not. I did not address anyone nor their motives, to include my own.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    My concern with herd immunity is not only what Gunny said... but what about all of the ever changing strains? Will our bodies and prior infections do a damned thing to create herd immunity?

    I had covid 1 month and 20 days ago. I am told that my "immunity" after having it is really only good for about 3 months... Some research shows up to 6-8 months at best it appears. But then I have seen people supposedly get re-infected in much less time than that. So I'm unsure that folks getting the infection and building up our immune systems will work in the long run? They need to find a vaccine that somehow prevents infection.

    Now, of course the left has changed the definition of "vaccine", but I am referring to what we all previously knew a vaccine was.
    The theory of herd immunity is not that it gives you immunity for having COVID, nor for being vaccinated. The theory is that if the entire "herd" that can be vaccinated IS vaccinated, their (the herd) immunity will protect those unable to be vaccinated. On paper it works. In real life, not so much, for reasons previously stated.

    They are not going find any preventive vaccine for a mutating virus. Flu shots don't work on that principle. They lessen the severity of the effects. So the COVID vaccine is supposed to do.

    We'll never know the truth because COVID-19 was politically weaponized by governments; especially, the US Government once the Dems took control.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Herd immunity is achieved through vaccination OR infection.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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