To Jimnyc and Sertes Debate

[mrg666]

...and no one still has a clue

and where it'll stop nobody knows
i forgot that

[Abbey Marie]

...and no one still has a clue

...and I had such hopes for you (being in Italy) to be an interesting addition to the board.

[Sertes]

...and I had such hopes for you (being in Italy) to be an interesting addition to the board.

Ask away, I'm one of the few here that actually answers the questions posed.

Lest we forget:

In fact after the second hit on the towers it was clear to everyone that america was under attack and they were using airplanes as weapons.
AA77 allegedly was able to fly for 20 minutes toward the most heavily defended airspace in the world, coming straight to washington d.c. , hitting the pentagon, while everyone was looking out for planes as threats.

For the missed intervention we have 2 opposite versions:

Official version
The 9/11 commission report places him outside the white house bunker, inaware of AA77 position, bearing, it also states he entered the white house bunker (PEOC) at 9:37, just moments before the plane hit.

American 77 began turning south, away from the White House, at 9:34. It
continued heading south for roughly a minute,before turning west and begin¬
ning to circle back.This news prompted the Secret Service to order the imme¬
diate evacuation of the Vice President just before 9:36. Agents propelled him
________________________________________
Page 40
40
THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT
out of his chair and told him he had to get to the bunker.The Vice President
entered the underground tunnel leading to the shelter at 9:37.

Source: http://64.233.167.104/custom?q=cache...82790381073093

Norman Mineta deposition
Norman Mineta, minister of transportation, in a testimony under oath before the 9/11 commission:

[youtube]M3q0uZAEd5w[/youtube]

He is into Whiteouse PEOC, he’s already in phone contact FAA number two in command, which is following the unidentified target in its trajectory toward the capital.
A young man enters the bunker to inform Cheney that the plane was 50 miles out, it's 9:25
At Langley, 105 miles away, Brad Derrig and Dean Eckmann got the order to scramble and will effectively be airborne at 9:30.
We have a target followed on radar, vice president knows that, and military fighters are in flight.
F16 flies at 1500 mph, even at half speed they could have intercepted the plane.
All conditions to down the plane and defend Washington D.C. are effective, if indeed the order was a “shoot down order”
But the plane comes to 30 miles, and the young man reports it to Cheney. Then it comes to 10, and the young man asks Dick Cheney “do the order still stand?” He snaps back “Of course the order still stands, have you heard anything on the contrary?”
Then the plane hits the pentagon.

If you think he mistook AA77 with UA93 you may watch this interview:
[youtube]edDExK8PpWs[/youtube]
where he provided landmarks names:


Green: great falls park.
Upper yellow: Rosslyn
Lower yellow: National Airport
Red: the pentagon

A detail of the area between Rosslyn and the National Airport:

Where I debated this: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost...2&postcount=20

Coincidences
1) The PEOC access control computer broke down, so there's no corroborating evidence.
2) Mineta deposition is reported on 9/11 commission report, but the part I reported here is omitted (the part where the young man comes out to inform the vice president of the wereabouts of flight 77)

Question: are you here to seek the truth whatever it may be, or just to insult the man with the weird claims?

[Gaffer]

What difference does it make whether Cheney was in the bunker or out? Who is the mysterious "young man" you keep referring too?

If you had any concept of what the air traffic looks like over the US you would not be making the silly statements you do. Fighters have to be vectored to an area and then find their target. That takes more than 20 minutes. And as I said before, you don't just shoot down a plane over populated areas. It's not as simple as you see on television.

None of your postings is fact, its just off the wall speculation.

[Kathianne]

Ask away, I'm one of the few here that actually answers the questions posed.

Lest we forget:

In fact after the second hit on the towers it was clear to everyone that america was under attack and they were using airplanes as weapons.
AA77 allegedly was able to fly for 20 minutes toward the most heavily defended airspace in the world, coming straight to washington d.c. , hitting the pentagon, while everyone was looking out for planes as threats.

For the missed intervention we have 2 opposite versions:

Official version
The 9/11 commission report places him outside the white house bunker, inaware of AA77 position, bearing, it also states he entered the white house bunker (PEOC) at 9:37, just moments before the plane hit.


Source: http://64.233.167.104/custom?q=cache...82790381073093

Norman Mineta deposition
Norman Mineta, minister of transportation, in a testimony under oath before the 9/11 commission:

[youtube]M3q0uZAEd5w[/youtube]

He is into Whiteouse PEOC, he’s already in phone contact FAA number two in command, which is following the unidentified target in its trajectory toward the capital.
A young man enters the bunker to inform Cheney that the plane was 50 miles out, it's 9:25
At Langley, 105 miles away, Brad Derrig and Dean Eckmann got the order to scramble and will effectively be airborne at 9:30.
We have a target followed on radar, vice president knows that, and military fighters are in flight.
F16 flies at 1500 mph, even at half speed they could have intercepted the plane.
All conditions to down the plane and defend Washington D.C. are effective, if indeed the order was a “shoot down order”
But the plane comes to 30 miles, and the young man reports it to Cheney. Then it comes to 10, and the young man asks Dick Cheney “do the order still stand?” He snaps back “Of course the order still stands, have you heard anything on the contrary?”
Then the plane hits the pentagon.

If you think he mistook AA77 with UA93 you may watch this interview:
[youtube]edDExK8PpWs[/youtube]
where he provided landmarks names:


Green: great falls park.
Upper yellow: Rosslyn
Lower yellow: National Airport
Red: the pentagon

A detail of the area between Rosslyn and the National Airport:

Where I debated this: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost...2&postcount=20

Coincidences
1) The PEOC access control computer broke down, so there's no corroborating evidence.
2) Mineta deposition is reported on 9/11 commission report, but the part I reported here is omitted (the part where the young man comes out to inform the vice president of the wereabouts of flight 77)

Question: are you here to seek the truth whatever it may be, or just to insult the man with the weird claims?

Right, we read through that. Why do you keep bringing it up?

[Abbey Marie]

Ask away, I'm one of the few here that actually answers the questions posed.
...

Okey doke.

1. Can you tell us a little about yourself? (With no references to 9/11 or any American conspiracies).

2. Why do you think Europe is turning away from God, and how does Italy fit into that equation?

[Sertes]

Okey doke.

1. Can you tell us a little about yourself? (With no references to 9/11 or any American conspiracies).

2. Why do you think Europe is turning away from God, and how does Italy fit into that equation?

Sure, no problem. Hope the moderators will tolerate this slight Off-topic.

1) My name is Riccardo Pizzirani, I'm 34 year old, and I live in Bologna (north Italy), the city that "invented" universities.
I choose to do civil services instead of going to the mandatory 1-year military service we are obliged to do here in Italy, I went to a drug-addicted rehab center and later to a safe house for people with psycological problems.
Now I work as an IT consultant/teacher, I have some small level Microsoft degrees beside my studies. I suck at soccer but I'm really good at MTG card game, I've been at world competition in '99.

2) IMHO Europe is turning away from God because of television propaganda, it pushes life models of self-gain, self-appleasement, that's just the opposite of the teaching of love of all the major religions. Once upon a time people worked the field and went to churches to seek redemption and got some knowledge. Now people are subject to so much advertisement, so much biased media that they're helplessy gaining the wrong teaching.
Italy is a country defined by its corruption and its hypocrisy, you can do anything, really anything, as long as you're not caught, it's good. You can go to sunday service and see mafia affiliated going to confession, you can turn on tv and see corrupted and convicted politicians praising the words of the pope.

[Sertes]

Right, we read through that. Why do you keep bringing it up?

Because it shows that the 9/11 commission report is built on lies aimed at protecting Dick Cheney, the pentagon plane could be shot down but the vice president choose not to. Either that or Norman Mineta lied under oath and the 9/11 commission defused the lie by not reporting it. But tell me what had to gain Mineta from that lie. I know what the "vice" president gained from 9/11.
The main evidences in the 9/11 studies have always been the collapses (not the start of them) and Mineta deposition. This is a political forum, so I choose to highligh the one most in topic.

According to 9/11 CR, the pentagon plane struck at 9:37, just moments before the vice president entered the PEOC. Mineta testimonies "I went to the PEOC and the vice president was already there", and then "a young man entered the room and told the vice president the plane was 50 miles away".
You cannot have it both way.

[Sertes]

What difference does it make whether Cheney was in the bunker or out?

Answered above

Who is the mysterious "young man" you keep referring too?

It's Norman Mineta that refers it in his deposition, from time 0:29 of the first video. Watch it, it's only 1:12 long.

If you had any concept of what the air traffic looks like over the US you would not be making the silly statements you do. Fighters have to be vectored to an area and then find their target. That takes more than 20 minutes.

Trust me when I say I do have "any concept of what the air traffic looks like", it's two years I study these issues.
In the nine months before 9/11 there were more than 60 planes who broke signaling with the control towers or steered out of planned course, they were intercepted within minutes, every single time.
And as I wrote, the F16 that were airborne at Langley at 9:30 could reach and shot down the pentagon plane flying at half speed, they could reach it well before using full speed. If the order was that, of course.

And as I said before, you don't just shoot down a plane over populated areas. It's not as simple as you see on television.

I don't watch television. And I repeat the same answer: after 2 hits on the towers it was clear that the people on board of any hijacked plane were doomed anyway. So you simply try to keep the human loss at minimum. So you try to intercept the planes as fast as you can. That didn't happen.
And again I ask you: what if the pentagon plane had a nuke on board? Would you leave it coming toward washington d.c.? They supposedly didn't know at the time

None of your postings is fact, its just off the wall speculation.

I posted a link to the 9/11 commission report and a 2 videos of Mineta, deposition and interview, and maps of the landmarks.
I can only show facts: it's upon you check them.

[Gaffer]

Answered above


Nowhere above do you mention why Cheney would do all of this. There's nothing to be gained by any of the attacks. And whether he was in or out of a bunker is irrelevant. Cheney, as VP, has no authority over anything. He is the back up president and tie breaker in the senate.

It's Norman Mineta that refers it in his deposition, from time 0:29 of the first video. Watch it, it's only 1:12 long.

Then he was either wrong in his time frame or he is lying. Would he have a reason to lie about something like that?


Trust me when I say I do have "any concept of what the air traffic looks like", it's two years I study these issues.
In the nine months before 9/11 there were more than 60 planes who broke signaling with the control towers or steered out of planned course, they were intercepted within minutes, every single time.

That is made up crap by the troofers. Planes occasionally lose their transponders and sometimes go off course from their flight path. Prior to 9/11 they would not be intercepted by any military planes. As I said the military planes are on the ground until scrambled, especially before 9/11. There was no special watch or reaction prior to 9/11. Anyone that tells you there was is full of shit.

And as I wrote, the F16 that were airborne at Langley at 9:30 could reach and shot down the pentagon plane flying at half speed, they could reach it well before using full speed. If the order was that, of course.

They have to be vectored to the aircraft by the air controllers. Most of them headed east to intercept planes coming in from overseas. How do you identify a plane you can't see among a hundred other planes in the same area? The controllers have to direct you there through all the other aircraft that are flying there as well. when the aircrafts transponder is turned off they don't get critical information like altitude. All they get is a radar blip.




I don't watch television. And I repeat the same answer: after 2 hits on the towers it was clear that the people on board of any hijacked plane were doomed anyway. So you simply try to keep the human loss at minimum. So you try to intercept the planes as fast as you can. That didn't happen.
And again I ask you: what if the pentagon plane had a nuke on board? Would you leave it coming toward washington d.c.? They supposedly didn't know at the time

After two hits on the towers nothing was clear except that there appeared to be five planes with transponders off. One turned out to be a transponder failure. There was never a concern that these planes might have nukes. They were hijacked commercial airliners and were treated as such. Prior to 9/11 it was expected that hijackers would simply take the plane somewhere and make demands.

I posted a link to the 9/11 commission report and a 2 videos of Mineta, deposition and interview, and maps of the landmarks.
I can only show facts: it's upon you check them.

Your not showing facts, your showing speculation.

The 911 commission report was a joke at best. It should have been called the 911 partisan report. Or a better name would be the protect clinton at all costs report.

[Abbey Marie]

Sure, no problem. Hope the moderators will tolerate this slight Off-topic.

1) My name is Riccardo Pizzirani, I'm 34 year old, and I live in Bologna (north Italy), the city that "invented" universities.
I choose to do civil services instead of going to the mandatory 1-year military service we are obliged to do here in Italy, I went to a drug-addicted rehab center and later to a safe house for people with psycological problems.
Now I work as an IT consultant/teacher, I have some small level Microsoft degrees beside my studies. I suck at soccer but I'm really good at MTG card game, I've been at world competition in '99.

2) IMHO Europe is turning away from God because of television propaganda, it pushes life models of self-gain, self-appleasement, that's just the opposite of the teaching of love of all the major religions. Once upon a time people worked the field and went to churches to seek redemption and got some knowledge. Now people are subject to so much advertisement, so much biased media that they're helplessy gaining the wrong teaching.
Italy is a country defined by its corruption and its hypocrisy, you can do anything, really anything, as long as you're not caught, it's good. You can go to sunday service and see mafia affiliated going to confession, you can turn on tv and see corrupted and convicted politicians praising the words of the pope.

Thank you for answering. You didn't have to give your real name! We have a few IT guys on the board, including the board owner. And my hubby.

I am fascinated by the fact that Europe has gone from a bedrock of churchgoers to what it is now. I guess I had hoped that Italy, being so fervently Catholic, might be an exception to that trend.

Your English writing skills are so good; I am guessing that you did not always live in Italy?

[LuvRPgrl]

statisicly the chance of getting caught out in this sort of thing far outweighs any benefits (wich are ? )

Statistically its impossible to occur.

There is a limit to how many people can share a secret and keep it a secret over time. The number of people needed to be involved is so astronomically high, its not even worth the time debating the loonies.

Anyone who is loony enough to even consider the prospect after two nanoseconds of thought on it, well, they say you cant win an arguement with a sick mind.

[Sertes]

Statistically its impossible to occur.

There is a limit to how many people can share a secret and keep it a secret over time. The number of people needed to be involved is so astronomically high, its not even worth the time debating the loonies.

Anyone who is loony enough to even consider the prospect after two nanoseconds of thought on it, well, they say you cant win an arguement with a sick mind.

AGAIN?

Why plan and propose Operation Northwoods (back in the sixties!) if they believed that false-flag attacks requiring 200 people would later been exposed??

Yes, it's not worth the time debating the ostrich.

[Sertes]

Nowhere above do you mention why Cheney would do all of this. There's nothing to be gained by any of the attacks. And whether he was in or out of a bunker is irrelevant. Cheney, as VP, has no authority over anything. He is the back up president and tie breaker in the senate.

These are very important matters, Gaffer, I have to respond to each of your points in separated posts.

This one, for instance.

What has to be gained I already highlighted: the self-appointed right for US to attack any country in the world is legitimated by 9/11.
They blamed Afghanistan for 9/11 and got away with it even without getting OBL.
After that they went to Iraq because it could pose a threat (yet to be proven)!
And now they say they're planning Iran because it could pose a threat too.
Jusfication? We have already been attacked, so we can and must protect ouselves with active action.
I can wrote it in many ways, but the substance is the same: the Cheney doctrine, the one highlighted in post #7 of this thread (that's the "above" I mentioned, I covered it above)
Never allow anyone to question american supremacy. For that you need to control energy worldwide and have full support at home.
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost...08&postcount=7

---

As for VP being the one in command, maybe you don't know of the communication issue of 9/11: all communications with key elements of defense, intelligence and political power were cut off. The only one in charge was VP Cheney. Or, if you believe in the 9/11 commission report, no one was in charge when the pentagon plane struck.

CIA Director George Tenet: "With all hell breaking loose, it was hard to get calls through on the secure phone. Essentially, I was in a communications blackout between the St. Regis and Langley, the longest twelve minutes of my life."

As speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert was third in line for the presidency: "On that dreadful day I couldn't make the thing work. No matter what I did, I couldn't connect with the vice president. As the minutes passed, my frustrations grew."

Secretary of State Colin Powell was away in Lima, Peru: "I never felt more useless in my life than on the morning of the 11th of September. Phones [were] gone because of what happened here and what happened to the [communications] system here in Washington. They couldn't get a phone line through. I was able to get some radio communications--two radio spots on the way back--but for most of that seven-hour period, I could not tell what was going on here in my capital, and I'm the secretary of state!"

President George W. Bush reportedly experienced some serious problems in his attempts at contacting colleagues back in Washington. According to the 9/11 Commission Report: "The president told us he was frustrated with the poor communications that morning. He could not reach key officials, including Secretary Rumsfeld, for a period of time. The line to the White House shelter conference room--and the vice president--kept cutting off."

I cut the article to post the main points here, you can find the whole here: http://www.911blogger.com/node/12072

[Gaffer]

These are very important matters, Gaffer, I have to respond to each of your points in separated posts.

This one, for instance.

What has to be gained I already highlighted: the self-appointed right for US to attack any country in the world is legitimated by 9/11.
They blamed Afghanistan for 9/11 and got away with it even without getting OBL.

Because Afghanistan was the base from which qaeda was operating. We have never needed a special reason to go after another country that is threatening us. Based on you CT al qaeda doesn't exist and no one is bombing and murdering people through out the world.


After that they went to Iraq because it could pose a threat (yet to be proven)!

It posed a major threat. One that has been proven over and over.


And now they say they're planning Iran because it could pose a threat too.
Jusfication? We have already been attacked, so we can and must protect ouselves with active action.

iran is an even bigger threat than saddam was. But that doesn't fall into your little fantasy so you chose to deny it. There is nothing wrong with eliminating a threat to your life before it can be implemented.


I can wrote it in many ways, but the substance is the same: the Cheney doctrine, the one highlighted in post #7 of this thread (that's the "above" I mentioned, I covered it above)

It's not the Chaney doctrine. It's the Bush doctrine. And has nothing to do with what you state below. That's made up Bullshit.
Never allow anyone to question american supremacy. For that you need to control energy worldwide and have full support at home.
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost...08&postcount=7

---

As for VP being the one in command, maybe you don't know of the communication issue of 9/11: all communications with key elements of defense, intelligence and political power were cut off. The only one in charge was VP Cheney. Or, if you believe in the 9/11 commission report, no one was in charge when the pentagon plane struck.

The President was in charge. Communications or not the President is in charge. Everyone else just awaits orders. Chaney and the Speaker are moved to safe areas in case something happens to the president. They are in charge of NOTHING. As I said before, the 9/11 commision was just a bunch of politcal hacks. Their main job was to cover clinton's ass for the events leading up to 9/11.



I cut the article to post the main points here, you can find the whole here: http://www.911blogger.com/node/12072

It's always amazing how these sites, like the ones you post, always have such insight about what was going on when they weren't there to see it. They know what was said, what was thought and what was going on. I'm surprised the UFO connection hasn't been worked into this. It's common knowledge that extra-terrestrials have been running things around here since the 50's.