DeSantis calls Russia-Ukraine war a ‘territorial dispute,’ questions US involvement

[Gunny]

'bad people'?
Do you mean the corrupt Ukrainian leadership who were killing their own people for years?
or the Neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian army?
or Putin/theRussians who invaded?
or the U.S., NATO and EU (WEF, MilitaryIComplex) who've long fed off the corruption & helped instigate war and are trying to prolong it?

You're just determined to make the good guys into bad guys regardless how fast and loose you have to play with the truth. Freedom's for everyone, not just you. The current Ukrainian government was chosen by the people and the corrupt, pro-Russian one given the boot. More than I can say for us.

[revelarts]

You're just determined to make the good guys into bad guys regardless how fast and loose you have to play with the truth. Freedom's for everyone, not just you. The current Ukrainian government was chosen by the people and the corrupt, pro-Russian one given the boot. More than I can say for us.

I can't pretend to see good guys. or democracy or "freedom" in this sad situation. sorry. No I can't.

Was hunter Biden a good guy as member of the the Ukrainian oil company giving 10% to the 'big guy'?
Journalist in Ukraine banned?
Price of freedom?

Tens of thousands of Ukrainians killed by the US backed Ukrainian government?
"freedom" bombing of your own civilians for 7 years.

Bioweapon labs on the enemies boarder for the good guys?
Freedom's Bioweapons Labs??

the "free" Ukrainian government not allowed to make peace because the U.S. says so?


sorry i can't unsee the crap you want to me to ignore.
I don't wear the same glasses you do.
I don't see a Russian "victory" as the end all "freedoms" in life for Ukrainians.
much less an eminent threat to NATO & world peace.

Aren't you tired of the new cries for freedom & the new foreign doomsday scenarios they feed us ever 3-7 years.
Terrorist! are going to kill us all and "take our freedom!"
Saddam! is going to kill us all and "take our freedom!"
Iran! is going to kill us all and "take our 'freedom!"
Covid! is going to kill us all and unless we "take your 'freedom!"
Putin! is going to kill us all and "take our 'freedom!"
China! is going to kill us all and "take our 'freedom!"

Or take someones freedoms (we say we care about that we had no clue about last week) if we don't... fill in the blank check of U.S. time treasure & souls.

But Scratch the surface and we see that oil/resources, money & power/empire are the main drivers. Not "freedom".
Because there are millions of people in various countries, like Saudi Arabia & Yemen, and any number of South American dictatorships of the past and present (Shah in Iran, even Saddam) who somehow we never demanded 'freedom' for the people,
when those freedom-less regimens were friendly to U.S. powers and corporations.

can you see that?

[BoogyMan]

Smells like it.

He's pure troll.

[Gunny]

I can't pretend to see good guys. or democracy or "freedom" in this sad situation. sorry. No I can't.

Was hunter Biden a good guy as member of the the Ukrainian oil company giving 10% to the 'big guy'?
Journalist in Ukraine banned?
Price of freedom?

Tens of thousands of Ukrainians killed by the US backed Ukrainian government?
"freedom" bombing of your own civilians for 7 years.

Bioweapon labs on the enemies boarder for the good guys?
Freedom's Bioweapons Labs??

the "free" Ukrainian government not allowed to make peace because the U.S. says so?


sorry i can't unsee the crap you want to me to ignore.
I don't wear the same glasses you do.
I don't see a Russian "victory" as the end all "freedoms" in life for Ukrainians.
much less an eminent threat to NATO & world peace.

Aren't you tired of the new cries for freedom & the new foreign doomsday scenarios they feed us ever 3-7 years.
Terrorist! are going to kill us all and "take our freedom!"
Saddam! is going to kill us all and "take our freedom!"
Iran! is going to kill us all and "take our 'freedom!"
Covid! is going to kill us all and unless we "take your 'freedom!"
Putin! is going to kill us all and "take our 'freedom!"
China! is going to kill us all and "take our 'freedom!"

Or take someones freedoms (we say we care about that we had no clue about last week) if we don't... fill in the blank check of U.S. time treasure & souls.

But Scratch the surface and we see that oil/resources, money & power/empire are the main drivers. Not "freedom".
Because there are millions of people in various countries, like Saudi Arabia & Yemen, and any number of South American dictatorships of the past and present (Shah in Iran, even Saddam) who somehow we never demanded 'freedom' for the people,
when those freedom-less regimens were friendly to U.S. powers and corporations.

can you see that?

And never once in all your America-bashing blather do you EVER point out anything good America has accomplished, nor the fact that there is STILL more opportunity here than anywhere else.

In case you've missed most of my posts for the past however many years, I "see that" more clearly and objectively than you. You blow the bad way out of proportion, and again, minimize, if mention at all, any good. You screech to High Heaven when you feel YOUR inalienable "Rights" are in any way so much as questioned; yet, could care less about the Rights of others.

You demand perfection according to your standard from the US while playing propaganda minister for a commie thug. "Bout says it all.

You have the Rights others have bled and died for and you have no appreciation for the cost of freedom. It isn't just for you, nor just because you say so. Your generation is WAY too narcissistic for me. Other people's freedom is not yours to give nor take, as it suits you, and is no less important than yours.

[AHZ]

CHicks dig me.

because I rarely wear underwear, and when i do its usually something unusual.

[revelarts]

And never once in all your America-bashing blather do you EVER point out anything good America has accomplished, nor the fact that there is STILL more opportunity here than anywhere else.

In case you've missed most of my posts for the past however many years, I "see that" more clearly and objectively than you. You blow the bad way out of proportion, and again, minimize, if mention at all, any good. You screech to High Heaven when you feel YOUR inalienable "Rights" are in any way so much as questioned; yet, could care less about the Rights of others.

You demand perfection according to your standard from the US while playing propaganda minister for a commie thug. "Bout says it all.

You have the Rights others have bled and died for and you have no appreciation for the cost of freedom. It isn't just for you, nor just because you say so. Your generation is WAY too narcissistic for me. Other people's freedom is not yours to give nor take, as it suits you, and is no less important than yours.

unh huh.
Ok
A few simply questions for you.

let say you are 100% right in your POV about fighting for freedom.

Do you think the U.S. should be the worlds "freedom" police?
("freedom" by your totally realistic and not dream world standard.)

Which other countries around the world "realistically" need our near unlimited financial and military support... up to the edge of nuclear war?
Are only corrupt imperfect countries with "democracies" who are attacked the ones who deserve the U.S. freedom police & loan?

Or do countries who are simply under unfree regimens ALSO need/get the U.S. freedom police and loan system you're promoting?
Or do we have to wait for the them to BECOME democracies before we help?

And maybe I should ask, is nuclear war what we should do to secure freedom for the rest of the world?
I'm too narcissistic to have clear perspective or appreciation for the cost of freedom... Other people's freedom.

Please give me the clear and objective standard that you think we need to be working with.

[AHZ]

unh huh.
Ok
A few simply questions for you.

let say you are 100% right in your POV about fighting for freedom.

Do you think the U.S. should be the worlds "freedom" police?
("freedom" by your totally realistic and not dream world standard.)

Which other countries around the world "realistically" need our near unlimited financial and military support... up to the edge of nuclear war?
Are only corrupt imperfect countries with "democracies" who are attacked who deserve the freedom police & loan?
Or do countries who are simply under unfree regimens that need the freedom police and loan system you're promoting?

Or do we have to wait for the mthe oBECOME demcracies before we help.

give me a standard that you think we need to be working with?

boomers cannot change bro.

[revelarts]

boomers cannot change bro.

HA,Look man, I'm a boomer too. I'm just not as old as great great granpa Gunny.

But hopefully everyone, no matter what so-called generation, can change and grow.
when they get information that gives a bigger clearer picture. (or more narcissistic picture i guess)

(And thankfully Seems the covid BSery and Trump's treatment shook a lot people off some of the old 'gov't is good' thinking)

[AHZ]

HA,Look man, I'm a boomer too. I'm just not as old as great great granpa Gunny.

But hopefully everyone, no matter what so-called generation, can change and grow.
when they get information that gives a bigger clearer picture. (or more narcissistic picture i guess)

(And thankfully Seems the covid BSery and Trump's treatment shook a lot people off some of the old 'gov't is good' thinking)

the hindu caste system had it right.

spiritual people should run the society, not the merchant/warrior industrial complex.

[Gunny]

unh huh.
Ok
A few simply questions for you.

let say you are 100% right in your POV about fighting for freedom.

Do you think the U.S. should be the worlds "freedom" police?
("freedom" by your totally realistic and not dream world standard.)

Which other countries around the world "realistically" need our near unlimited financial and military support... up to the edge of nuclear war?
Are only corrupt imperfect countries with "democracies" who are attacked the ones who deserve the U.S. freedom police & loan?

Or do countries who are simply under unfree regimens ALSO need/get the U.S. freedom police and loan system you're promoting?
Or do we have to wait for the them to BECOME democracies before we help?

And maybe I should ask, is nuclear war what we should do to secure freedom for the rest of the world?
I'm too narcissistic to have clear perspective or appreciation for the cost of freedom... Other people's freedom.

Please give me the clear and objective standard that you think we need to be working with.

We've done this before. How I think it should be has little to do with how it is. I have always stood up to bullies because it is the only way to handle them. Not standing up to them only empowers them to bully more and take more.

You expect some kind of magical perfection -- again according to what you not necessarily anyone else believes to be "perfection"' Your ideas of right and wrong are too full of contradictions/imperfections for my taste. There's no fairness nor equality. Just your opinion.

I believe in lending a helping hand to those in need, and defending from evil assholes that cannot defend themselves, when and where I can and that certainly is not my opinion. There's whole Book on the subject.

[revelarts]

the hindu caste system had it right.

spiritual people should run the society, not the merchant/warrior industrial complex.

ok sooo

Who decides who is "spiritual" exactly?

[revelarts]

We've done this before. How I think it should be has little to do with how it is. I have always stood up to bullies because it is the only way to handle them. Not standing up to them only empowers them to bully more and take more.

... I believe in lending a helping hand to those in need, and defending from evil assholes that cannot defend themselves, when and where I can and that certainly is not&nbsp;<em>my&nbsp;</em>opinion. There's whole Book on the subject

So which bullies in the world today do you think U.S. should stand up too?
There are plenty in many countries.
Which oppressive dictatorships should we overthrow or free?
Maybe oppressive bullies like Saudi Arabia who oppress women, Christians & dissidents and have attacked Yemen?
Should we "stand up" "lend a helping hand" there?
Or is it only certain country's who've been Invaded where you think we should draw our line in the sand?

It's your belief, I'm trying to get handle on. YOUR views on what should be done. in your imperfect world with your imperfect solutions.
I'm trying to understand it. If you can make a clear case for when and where, I might agree with you.
But so far your outrage at the bullies empowerment, and the "standing up" lending a hand" seems RANDOM and inconsistent.

But your outrage and support does somehow seems to often align well with neo-cons & western oligarchs stated desires and corporate advancement around the world.
Their growth & expansion & power goals seems clear.
They seem opportunistic, based on world events, and they are not always as successful as they plan but they are moving the ball in the direction that seems to align with their goals.
And it seems to me they don't care very much about bullies or those in need,
but they do run those concerns 'up the flag pole' to get support from portions of the U.S. public when it's convenient.

Look, just give me a list of Bullies YOU think the U.S. should deal with?
Or the general LEVEL of Bullying and anti-freedom that you think the U.S. should generally step in with Billions or Weapons or Boots?
Is it whenever the U.S. President says so,
or when the media show a lot of distressing pictures,
or when you hear from military types saying problem is "big"?
or when a country you don't trust does something you don't like... enough?

Look we both know that the gov't will ignore BOTH of us.
So I'm just trying to get some clarity on Your MORE OBJECTIVE point of view, which we all should consider the right way to do things.

[Gunny]

So which bullies in the world today do you think U.S. should stand up too?
There are plenty in many countries.
Which oppressive dictatorships should we overthrow or free?
Maybe oppressive bullies like Saudi Arabia who oppress women, Christians & dissidents and have attacked Yemen?
Should we "stand up" "lend a helping hand" there?
Or is it only certain country's who've been Invaded where you think we should draw our line in the sand?

It's your belief, I'm trying to get handle on. YOUR views on what should be done. in your imperfect world with your imperfect solutions.
I'm trying to understand it. If you can make a clear case for when and where, I might agree with you.
But so far your outrage at the bullies empowerment, and the "standing up" lending a hand" seems RANDOM and inconsistent.

But your outrage and support does somehow seems to often align well with neo-cons & western oligarchs stated desires and corporate advancement around the world.
Their growth & expansion & power goals seems clear.
They seem opportunistic, based on world events, and they are not always as successful as they plan but they are moving the ball in the direction that seems to align with their goals.
And it seems to me they don't care very much about bullies or those in need,
but they do run those concerns 'up the flag pole' to get support from portions of the U.S. public when it's convenient.

Look, just give me a list of Bullies YOU think the U.S. should deal with?
Or the general LEVEL of Bullying and anti-freedom that you think the U.S. should generally step in with Billions or Weapons or Boots?
Is it whenever the U.S. President says so,
or when the media show a lot of distressing pictures,
or when you hear from military types saying problem is "big"?
or when a country you don't trust does something you don't like... enough?

Look we both know that the gov't will ignore BOTH of us.
So I'm just trying to get some clarity on Your MORE OBJECTIVE point of view, which we all should consider the right way to do things.

Clarity? Chasing rabbits down holes does not provide clarity. Neither does using critical theory to twist actual events into something they aren't.

I've gone to lengths at times to try and understand the side of the argument you have chosen and it always comes back to "self". Mine comes back to "others as well/much as self". Not a lot more I can say that doesn't usually turn into a personal pissing contest. Based on my beliefs, there isn't really even a choice as to which is right.

[revelarts]

Clarity? Chasing rabbits down holes does not provide clarity. Neither does using critical theory to twist actual events into something they aren't.

I've gone to lengths at times to try and understand the side of the argument you have chosen and it always comes back to "self". Mine comes back to "others as well/much as self". Not a lot more I can say that doesn't usually turn into a personal pissing contest. Based on my beliefs, there isn't really even a choice as to which is right.

If You're not going to give me an answer and only concern yourself with trying to divine the "real" motives for my POV,
then you might want to consider thinking about the motives of the politicians rather than mine.
After you come to some honest conclusions about theirs, the motives behind my POV will have more reality than your current assessment.


BTW

Billions, Bombs, and Boots.
what the "real" motivation?
"freedom"?

[Gunny]

If You're not going to give me an answer and only concern yourself with trying to divine the "real" motives for my POV,
then you might want to consider thinking about the motives of the politicians rather than mine.
After you come to some honest conclusions about theirs, the motives behind my POV will have more reality than your current assessment.


BTW

Billions, Bombs, and Boots.
what the "real" motivation?
"freedom"?

How many times do I have to give you the same answers? This isn't even the 3rd time we've had this same conversation. My "conclusions" are quite straightforward, fact-based and honest. Just as the "real motives for your POV" are daylight obvious by your own words.

If you aren't willing to fight for freedom or support those who are, you don't deserve any of your own.