Discuss 9/11 debate

[Sertes]

3. What the hell would it matter where Cheney was?

After the second hit on the towers it was clear to everyone that america was under attack and they were using airplanes as weapons.
AA77 (the pentagon plane) allegedly was able to fly for 20 minutes toward the most heavily defended airspace in the world, coming straight to washington d.c. , hitting the pentagon, while everyone was looking out for planes as threats.

For the missed intervention we have 2 opposite versions:

Official version
The 9/11 commission report places him outside the white house bunker, inaware of AA77 position, bearing, it also states he entered the white house bunker (PEOC) at 9:37, just moments before the plane hit.

American 77 began turning south, away from the White House, at 9:34. It
continued heading south for roughly a minute,before turning west and begin¬
ning to circle back.This news prompted the Secret Service to order the imme¬
diate evacuation of the Vice President just before 9:36. Agents propelled him
________________________________________
Page 40
40
THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT
out of his chair and told him he had to get to the bunker.The Vice President
entered the underground tunnel leading to the shelter at 9:37.

Source: http://64.233.167.104/custom?q=cache...82790381073093

Norman Mineta deposition
Norman Mineta, minister of transportation, in a testimony under oath before the 9/11 commission:

[youtube]M3q0uZAEd5w[/youtube]

He is into Whiteouse PEOC, he’s already in phone contact FAA number two in command, which is following the unidentified target in its trajectory toward the capital.
A young man enters the bunker to inform Cheney that the plane was 50 miles out, it's 9:25
At Langley, 105 miles away, Brad Derrig and Dean Eckmann got the order to scramble and will effectively be airborne at 9:30.
We have a target followed on radar, vice president knows that, and military fighters are in flight.
F16 flies at 1500 mph, even at half speed they could have intercepted the plane.
All conditions to down the plane and defend Washington D.C. are effective, if indeed the order was a “shoot down order”
But the plane comes to 30 miles, and the young man reports it to Cheney. Then it comes to 10, and the young man asks Dick Cheney “do the order still stand?” He snaps back “Of course the order still stands, have you heard anything on the contrary?”
Then the plane hits the pentagon.

If you think he mistook AA77 with UA93 you may watch this interview:
[youtube]edDExK8PpWs[/youtube]
where he provided landmarks names:


Green: great falls park.
Upper yellow: Rosslyn
Lower yellow: National Airport
Red: the pentagon

A detail of the area between Rosslyn and the National Airport:

Where I debated this: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost...2&postcount=20

Coincidences
1) The PEOC access control computer broke down, so there's no corroborating evidence.
2) Mineta deposition is reported on 9/11 commission report, but the part I reported here is omitted (the part where the young man comes out to inform the vice president of the wereabouts of flight 77)

---

So why is so important to know where was Dick Cheney at 9:30?

First of all because it shows that either:
or Norman Mineta, minister of transportation, lied under oath
or the 9/11 Commission Report is wrong on purpose, to cover up for Dick Cheney

And most important, we should connect it with the whole missed intervention part:

At 9:30 in Langley, 105 miles away, Brad Derrig and Dean Eckmann got the order to scramble and will effectively be airborne at 9:30.
So we have a target followed on radar, vice president knows that, and military fighters are in flight.
F16 flies at 1500 mph, even at half speed they could have intercepted the plane in time
There was an ongoing order by the only one in command, the VP.
All conditions to down the plane and defend Washington D.C. are effective, if indeed the order was a “shoot down order”

It didn't happen.

[rppearso]

I think people need to watch Zeitgeist (of course the whole first part on religion is a sham) but the points on 9/11 and all wars before since WW2 it kinda makes you think, 9/11 was the final push to get the anti terror bill passed that has potential to almost completely disolve our constitutional rights it also got us involved in the middle east more so that we have ever been before and is it a coincidence that this all happened right before oil went to 100$ a barrel. Alot of this is no surprise considering it is lined out in revalations as we are potentially entering the armagedon, the armagedon will occure in the middle east. There is sometimes deception sprinkled into truth but we must be able to discern the deception and not allow others to use deceptive points to cloud the truth, oklahoma city was encoruaged by the government in attempts to pass the terror bill, the mini nuke thing is a deception designed to discredit the entire theroy by making it look silly.

[atliberty]

The truth shall set you free and it can be seen before your very eyes here: http://www.911blogger.com/node/10025 an/or here: http://blip.tv/file/306082/ ; the second site video feed can be viewed in full screen mode.

We need to spread the truth that people inside our own government knew about and planned 9/11. All as Bush and Cheney had to do was be complacent, which we know is conspiracy. We know they did it to justify and scare a majority of us into supporting their quest for global conquest, domination and profit to a small group of people who drink the blood of innocent people.


Just like the Manhattan project, 9/11 was not planned in the White House. In the case of 9/11 it was just okayed by the criminal figure heads there. There is no question as to whether or not the system can hide such a covert project from the honorable soldiers.

All that the good soldiers believe in and are willing to fight for remain even after they realize that they have been tricked and lied to.
In fact they take an oath to defend the constitution, not to defend the people who have used lies to make obscene profits from war and oil.

While I have been trained in engineering, it does not take an engineer to realize the planes did not cause the buildings to crumble to the ground. Even as I watched the buildings fall in 2001, I knew that they were brought down by explosives. Once the one tower leaned to the side, there was no downward force on the opposite side from which it was leaning; it would not have continued to collapse symmetrically.

Please, if you still doubt that 9/11 was a false flag operation, watch the movie. Then tell everyone you know that it is true that people inside our own government had to be involved in the planning of 9/11. This is the only way we proud honorable Americans can reclaim our stature and righteousness as a nation.

Thank you

[manu1959]

how do you know that the order he is refering to is a shoot down order.....

how do you know which plane the solider is refering to is the plane that hit the pentagon.......

but wait a second.....your assertion is that an airplane did not hit the pentagon.....as an airplane can not make a circular hole....and untrained pilot could not make the turn necessary to hit the building....the engine found at the site was the wrong engine.....there was no debris....no bodies.....

esentially no ariplane......

therefore, if there was no plane 10 miles out and thus no shoot down order

no conspiracy ...... not by dick anyway...

now what were the clinton appointed terror experts up to that day tenant and clarke....you know the two guys that got "hit" 1/2 a dozen times.....

how about this.....

were the towers even hit by planes......

one other thing....who appointed norm .....

[Sertes]

how do you know that the order he is refering to is a shoot down order.....

In fact it appears it was a "stand down order" rather than a "shoot down order", judging on what happened

how do you know which plane the solider is refering to is the plane that hit the pentagon.......

Because the young man told Cheney "the plane is 50 miles out", "the plane is 30 miles out" and later "the plane is 10 miles out"... out of what???
the two planes already hit the towers
after the third message the pentagon was hit
the peoc is under the white house, washington d.c.
the fourth plane was crashed one hour later (and by passengers, so "the plane is x miles out" would mean nothing referring to UA93)

but wait a second.....your assertion is that an airplane did not hit the pentagon.....as an airplane can not make a circular hole....and untrained pilot could not make the turn necessary to hit the building....the engine found at the site was the wrong engine.....there was no debris....no bodies.....

esentially no ariplane......

therefore, if there was no plane 10 miles out and thus no shoot down order

no conspiracy ...... not by dick anyway...

True. The facts are more complicated.
But you're using side issues here to dodge the main question: WHERE WAS DICK CHENEY AT 9:30 ON 9/11

What we're talking about if you cannot even make sense between a selected page on 9/11 commission report and a testimony under oath of a U.S. minister?

now what were the clinton appointed terror experts up to that day tenant and clarke....you know the two guys that got "hit" 1/2 a dozen times.....

how about this.....

were the towers even hit by planes......

one other thing....who appointed norm .....

...who cares? I'm looking to the man WHO WAS IN CHARGE AT THE MOMENT.
You know, military response is top-down. Soldiers follow orders.

[manu1959]

In fact it appears it was a "stand down order" rather than a "shoot down order", judging on what happened

Because the young man told Cheney "the plane is 50 miles out", "the plane is 30 miles out" and later "the plane is 10 miles out"... out of what???
the two planes already hit the towers
after the third message the pentagon was hit
the peoc is under the white house, washington d.c.
the fourth plane was crashed one hour later (and by passengers, so "the plane is x miles out" would mean nothing referring to UA93)

True. The facts are more complicated.
But you're using side issues here to dodge the main question: WHERE WAS DICK CHENEY AT 9:30 ON 9/11

What we're talking about if you cannot even make sense between a selected page on 9/11 commission report and a testimony under oath of a U.S. minister?

...who cares? I'm looking to the man WHO WAS IN CHARGE AT THE MOMENT.
You know, military response is top-down. Soldiers follow orders.

if a plane did not hit the pentagon then what plane could the have been speaking about......maybe his orders were....clinton is still in charge and calling the shots......

maybe he was refering to fighter jets and the presidents order to shoot the plane that didn't hit the pentagon down.....

[manu1959]

did passenger planes hit the wtc.................

[Sertes]

if a plane did not hit the pentagon then what plane could the have been speaking about......maybe his orders were....clinton is still in charge and calling the shots......

Everyone recognizes that some kind of plane or cruise missile hit the pentagon. But we're discussing why it wasn't intercepted... the nature of the plane is of no concern at this point. If we cannot even clear the major point in the 9/11 inquiry why look at the details?

According to Mineta testimony under oath the flight that hit the pentagon was tracked live by both military and civil radars, the VP knew that, and we know for sure there were jetfighters in air within intercepting range at 9:30, all after two hits on the towers, when it was clear to anyone the U.S. were under attack. So how in hell a commercial plane could hit the pentagon? Why the V.P. didn't take action? And why the 9/11 commission report lied about it, and covered it up?

Or else... why Norman Mineta, then minister of transportation, lied under oath before the 9/11 commission, and his testimony is missing from the thousand pages of the 9/11 commission report?

I'm just asking who was in command, why he didn't acknowledge he failed, and why he wasn't asked to respond for it before a court. And why either way the 9/11 commission report is missing or misleading.

maybe he was refering to fighter jets and the presidents order to shoot the plane that didn't hit the pentagon down.....

That's why I said 9:30 . After the three "the plane is 50 miles out", "the plane is 30 miles out", "the plane is 10 miles out" we have the hit on the pentagon, that was at 9:37

[Sertes]

did passenger planes hit the wtc.................

It appear so, is there any proof telling you otherwise?

[n0spam4me]

Why did the worlds greatest military power FAIL to defend even its own HQ?

why indeed!?!?!?!

[trobinett]

I guess the most interesting issue for me is why someone is likely to believe something like this could be conspiracy-driven.

Well, after reading through all the posts, I'd say that Abbey hit the nail on the head.

The "conspiracy" driven left ALWAYS relies on the feeling that its them against us. Not a bad platform, but one always found lacking at the end of the day.

Those that rely on such a foundation, will, in the end, come up lacking.

Such is history.

[Sertes]

The "conspiracy" driven left ALWAYS relies on the feeling that its them against us. Not a bad platform, but one always found lacking at the end of the day.

Those that rely on such a foundation, will, in the end, come up lacking.

In fact the whole idea of the official (unproved) "islamic conspiracy against the west" is plain silly.
The day they'll show us the pentagon plane, the day they explain why the damage of its rear tail engine is not present in the first responders photo of the pentagon side, the day they'll explain the dynamic of WTC7 collapse, the day they'll explain how WTC1 and 2 could collapse at free fall speed through the path of most resistance with complete pulverization... well, that day someone could be both INFORMED and BELIEVE the official conspiracy theory.

Until then... you could only believe by FAITH or by being UNINFORMED about the real issues of 9/11.

[westcoast]

In fact the whole idea of the official (unproved) "islamic conspiracy against the west" is plain silly.
The day they'll show us the pentagon plane, the day they explain why the damage of its rear tail engine is not present in the first responders photo of the pentagon side, the day they'll explain the dynamic of WTC7 collapse, the day they'll explain how WTC1 and 2 could collapse at free fall speed through the path of most resistance with complete pulverization... well, that day someone could be both INFORMED and BELIEVE the official conspiracy theory.

Until then... you could only believe by FAITH or by being UNINFORMED about the real issues of 9/11.

Yeah, Sertes is right. You guys can't prove jack.

[manu1959]

Yeah, Sertes is right. You guys can't prove jack.

written by a friend of mine.....

Alright so here are my biggest questions and flaws I see in your conspiracy.

PEOPLE AND HIJACKERS:
1. Where are all of the people who were on those planes? I mean the widows and orphans are lying also? (One of the widows lives a city away from me and has not seen her husband since)

2. Where are the hijackers? You guys like to say they alive and well in SA... prove it... go out and take a picture or video of you asking them questions.

PENTAGON:

3. How did the debris including destroyed cars, bent light poles, AA debris and parts, smashed generators and broken down fences get planted without being seen? I mean that highway is busy as hell and people saw it happen not to mention news teams were there within minutes.

4. How come no one in the area of the pentagon claimed to have seen a missile? All at the scene claimed to have seen a large commercial airliner resembling an AA plane hit the pentagon and many others claimed to have atleaste seen a large commercial airliner in the area flying low towars the pentagon.

WTC:
5. Why do you guys think the WTC came down like a demo? Demos come down from the bottom up, highly visible, all floors are blown in order and it falls as one. The WTC came down from the impact zone, pancaked and the "SQUIBS" were seen in no particular order. So how did you morons really buy into that?

6. Why do you guys take the fire figher quotes out of context? Yes many firefighters reported hearing large cracks and explosions. However if you read the full transcripts most also point out that it sounded like or easily could have been transformers blowing up or gas lines rupturing. So why cut those parts out when presenting this?

7. Why do you guys think fire was the excuse? No report has ever said fire is what took the towers down. Fire and heat temperatures have always been just one of the many factors from that day. Among the factores were, fire, heat and severe structural damage. The building was hit buy a plane larger than what it was designed for and carrying twice as much fuel, it took out major support components.

8. Why do you think the planes that hit were not commercial airliners? As far as I have seen only one person has claimed it was a military plane and he was way up town. Thousands were there that day and saw the symbols on the side and saw the type of plane, no one said otherwise. Millions saw it on tv.... so why make this bogus claim?

9. Where is the proof of this molten steel? Okay so sure possibly there was a pool of somthing down there.... where is the picture and more importantly the proof it was steel? It very well could have been alluminum from the planes. Lets also not forget that the fires continued for weeks afterwars... the pile was like a furnace.

10. Why do you claim the evidence was shipped away so fast? It took months to recover it all and after that it was sent across the bay where it sat for months while it was combed over for human remains. This debris was not shipped of to China the next day or even month for that matter.... and certainly not all at once when it did begin to get shipped off.

STANDDOWN ORDER:
11. Why do you claim there was a standdown order? Watching the video on youtube you hear the phrase "HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY?" When Cheney says that he is replying to the question from the aid about the shootdown order. He is simply saying have you heard anything besides a shootdown order. If this standdown order was given... somthing the vice president is not in power to authorize then why were f15s scrambled already and prepared to intercept? (Someone really explain this one)

EXPERTS:
12. Why have only a few hundreds scientists/engineers/architects worldwide joined the movement and claim conspiracy? There are millions in each field. My suggestion is look up the credntials of these guys. As we have seen with Steven Jones... He has no credentials with structural engineering or earth physics... the guy studied astro physics.... That might be why the entire Engineering dept at his school went against him?

13. Why did no toher foreign intel agencies uncover the govt doing this? Certainly countries like Russia and China who would love to slander the U.S. govt are capable of finding such a plot. They would bring it to light instantly in order to destroy respect and reliance for the U.S. govt. Instead what was the chatter before 9/11? Increased terrorist chatter from Osama and point outs of a possible strike on the U.S.

14. Why has Osama never admitted he is innocent? If he is so innocent why not admit it? Instead in every video he provokes the U.S. and gives reasoning behind the attack.

15. So if this was a conspiracy I guess the Cole, Africa Embassies and WTC attack in 91 were all also conspiracies? Sorry but those were carried out by the same organization so if this was a fake as you claim then those were also because you are stating this terrorist network is basically a fake fear.

16. Why since 9/11 have several major studies been done by MIT engineering and Purdue about the WTC all come up with similar findings to the comission? These were independent studies, not paid for or funded in any way by the govt. You guys keep saying another report must be done? Well many have by independent firms and schools and they are all disagreeing with your theory.

IRAQ/AFGHANISTAN:
17. Why would the admin do 9/11 as an excuse for Iraq? Iraq focused little on terrorism and more on WMDs. There were no Iraqis on the planes that day, why plan to invade Iraq and claim terrorist ties but put no Iraqis who could then be said to have been funded by Saddam?

18. What benifit does the U.S. being in Afghanistan really play? I mean sure you can claim it gives us a base of operations over there... not really though we have military bases all over the region.

YOUR BULLSHIT:
19. So why after all of these years has not ONE person involved turned up? Certainly people have values and feeling no matter how much money they were paid. This thing would have taken thousands of people to pull off and thousands more to pay off to keep quiet. So where are they all?

20. Why after your demo theory was proved bullshit did you guys move onto, missile pod then thermite and now possibly HAARP? Why are you guys so determined to prove this conspiracy true that you simply keep going further into space for possible causes.

21. Why is there no money trail or communication trail? Yes rumsfeld presented a few days before a massive ammount of money missing from within... OVER 12 YEARS HOWEVER!!! Do not claim that money went to 9/11... that money went to a govt spending on defense that is out of control adn foreign ops and arms sales done by the CIA most likely. Did the admin use morse code? As we have seen... emails and texts are impossible to erase... they can always be found. So where are the emails from Bush to the lowest people in the plot giving orders? NOTHING IS THERE!!!

23. Why do you claim the media is so biased and corrupt? Okay so the media may not present the best stuff always... HOWEVER... What about independent journalists? The ones that uncovered... Abu-Garhib, CIA torture flights, Walter Reed, Email scandal, GITMO, BlackWater... and dozens more scandals which this admin has not been able t keep quiet... why cant these same guys seem to find anything on 9/11? NOT THERE MAYBE???

24. Why are you so bent on finding a ct that in all probibility does not exist? There are things such as genocide ocruing in this world, Global Warming should be considered for the future.... or are things like that all a huge conspiracy also?

NOTE: Organizations need to pull off plot: CIA, FBI, NSA, CONGRESS, PENTAGON, ARMY, NAVY, AIRFORCE, FDNY, NYPD, AA, UNITED, MI6, ALL FOREIGN INTEL SERVICES, DEMO CREWS, and many more I am sure I am leaving out.

[Sertes]

I have an answer for all questions except number 22.

1. Where are all of the people who were on those planes? I mean the widows and orphans are lying also? (One of the widows lives a city away from me and has not seen her husband since)

1. No one dispute the passengers of AA77 (pentagon plane) and UA93 (fourth plane) are dead. It's how and where they died that's challenged: I believe they died in an airfield where the two planes landed, after being forced to provide phone calls that confirmed the fact "arabs hijacked the planes", and the actual planes were substituted by drones which relied the calls to ground. I have some evidence that cellphone calls could not be made from airplanes in 2001, but that is no longer a requirement: the forced phone calls could be relied by earth and not by the drones.

2. Where are the hijackers? You guys like to say they alive and well in SA... prove it... go out and take a picture or video of you asking them questions.

2. You guys say they boarded the 4 planes. Where are the tapes of the airport security? Where are the boarding gate videos? You know, if you tell the world mr X did a crime you should PROVE it. Not ask people to PROVE he didn't. I'm sure law works THIS way and not the other way around.

3. How did the debris including destroyed cars, bent light poles, AA debris and parts, smashed generators and broken down fences get planted without being seen? I mean that highway is busy as hell and people saw it happen not to mention news teams were there within minutes.

3. Planted? No: a drone (an unmanned remote guided plane or a cruise missile) disguised as a AA 757 hit the pentagon. The drone was smaller than a 757, that's why we don't have -for example- the damage of the rear tail wing on the upper two stories of the pentagon. A 757 crashing with a window at 500mph, why it doesn't leave any sign whatsoever?

CGI plane of the real size of AA77 added before the actual photo of the damage on the pentagon face:

4. How come no one in the area of the pentagon claimed to have seen a missile? All at the scene claimed to have seen a large commercial airliner resembling an AA plane hit the pentagon and many others claimed to have atleaste seen a large commercial airliner in the area flying low towars the pentagon.

4. Because it was disguised as an AA airliner. And you're wrong, not everyone reported the same testimony of a large commercial airliner, some of the sparse ones (3), unaffected by say-so saw a small commuter plane; some other just reported to have seen an AA airliner while not telling anything about the size of it; Playing devil advocate you could think that an operation big as this would warrant at least 20-30 fake testimony placed among real people to tell the chosen story, right?
People that attended a magician show once saw the Statue of Liberty disappear.
So as I told earlier it's the phyisics the single objective point you cannot manipulate. There's no sign of the rear tail wing in the pentagon face, no one could question this. It's the strongest direct evidence toward the "no AA77 at the pentagon" theory, you should start here if you really want to challenge a theory.

5. Why do you guys think the WTC came down like a demo?

5a. Because the collapses of the three buildings have more than 10 elements in common with controlled demolition while showing zero elements of gravitational collapses. See architects and engineers for 9/11 truth website, right column: www.ae911truth.org

Demos come down from the bottom up, highly visible, all floors are blown in order and it falls as one.

5b. That is not correct. The "Controlled" part of the "Controlled Demolitions" imply that demolitors can collapse a building the way they choose. A normal c.d. aims to collapse a building without harming other nearby buildings, so it proceeds from the inner to the outside of the plant, half second that it proceeds at some selected floors (or all of them), usually from the bottom ones moving upward.
That's because destroying the inner plant first forces the building to collapse from outside to inside, on itself, not collapsing in some direction, then the other explosions and cuts demolish the upper blocks.
But that is not a rule, it's just that the usual target of c.d. : see a very small c.d. proceed downward here.
[youtube]VZ1E2NPl-s8[/youtube]

The WTC came down from the impact zone, pancaked and the "SQUIBS" were seen in no particular order. So how did you morons really buy into that?

5c. Let's examine three of the elements I cited earlier (among the list of the "10 elements in common with controlled demolition while showing zero elements of gravitational collapses"): I don't even need to cite SQUIBS to achieve a physical impossible.
The collapses proceed at almost free fall speed, through the path of most resistence, while pulverizing all contenents.
Even two of the three is impossible: a gravitational collapse has only potential energy to account for, and if you spend all of it to achieve free fall speed you cannot simultaneously have a collapse through the path of most resistance, because you don't have any other energy left to allocate to winning the resistance of the 80 underlying floors. Add to that that during the collapses 99% of the contents of the WTC have been pulverized into thin dust, that is other energy to account for that you simply don't have.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost...05&postcount=6

And when you look at WTC7 collapse there isn't even an "official theory" to challenge: FEMA report doesn't acknowledge WTC7 existence nor its collapse, 9/11 commission report doesn't acknowledge WTC7 existence nor its collapse, NIST NCSTAR1 acknowledge the existence and collapse of WTC7, but it fails to even address how and why it collapsed.
That's why "we morons buy into that".

6. Why do you guys take the fire figher quotes out of context? Yes many firefighters reported hearing large cracks and explosions. However if you read the full transcripts most also point out that it sounded like or easily could have been transformers blowing up or gas lines rupturing. So why cut those parts out when presenting this?

6. Because WTC was a Class A building, and there were NO FUCKING GAS LINES in it. Only electric stooves. And many others tell about VERY BIG EXPLOSIONS, coming from middle floors!
Let's say I choose one and you comment it, ok? See this from minute 1:30 to minute 2:30. Maybe they're ALL wrong.
[youtube]7_E4N5YIycI[/youtube]

7. Why do you guys think fire was the excuse? No report has ever said fire is what took the towers down. Fire and heat temperatures have always been just one of the many factors from that day. Among the factores were, fire, heat and severe structural damage. The building was hit buy a plane larger than what it was designed for and carrying twice as much fuel, it took out major support components.

7a. I don't even need to challenge this straw-man claim. It's the dinamic of the collapse that is proven to be impossible, so I really don't need to discuss how the collapse started to prove the WTC were brought down in controlled demolitions.

But if you really want to impress me, show me the big fires that brought down WTC7, the building that collapsed 6 hours later without even being hit by a plane. The best photo I have seen shows 3 small fire pockets in 3 different floors. Or the massive mechanical damage, no one proved it.
Remember that no steel framed highrise building even fell anytime in history before or after 9/11 from fires. It simply didn't happen because steel framed buildings are essentially a big heat sink, so a fire could consume all the contents but leave the steel structure standing (as in One Meridian Plaza, which burned for 26 hours and did not collapse).
Instead even with WTC7 we see the collapse at free fall speed through the path of most resistance - a physical impossible.

8. Why do you think the planes that hit were not commercial airliners? As far as I have seen only one person has claimed it was a military plane and he was way up town. Thousands were there that day and saw the symbols on the side and saw the type of plane, no one said otherwise. Millions saw it on tv.... so why make this bogus claim?

8. Who claimed that, and where, please?

9. Where is the proof of this molten steel? Okay so sure possibly there was a pool of somthing down there.... where is the picture and more importantly the proof it was steel? It very well could have been alluminum from the planes.

9. I posted it in great detail in the debate: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost...6&postcount=18
And don't forget the satellite thermal photos of 9/16 with temperatures far higher than jetfuel burning... also in the debate.

Lets also not forget that the fires continued for weeks afterwars... the pile was like a furnace.

9a. A gravitational collapse leaves pools of molten steel, for as much as 40 days, and you don't see anything strange in that. Nice denial.

10. Why do you claim the evidence was shipped away so fast? It took months to recover it all and after that it was sent across the bay where it sat for months while it was combed over for human remains. This debris was not shipped of to China the next day or even month for that matter.... and certainly not all at once when it did begin to get shipped off.

10. "So fast" that even NIST couldn't search for explosives residues, nor could anyone else. I can offer many references that show the deliberate destruction of a crime scente - but it's a non-issue. Clear the stronger claims first, like the collapse dynamic, where was Dick Cheney at 9:30 and missing the rear tail damage at the pentagon.

11. Why do you claim there was a standdown order?

11a. Because the plane was followed on both military and civil radars, the standard procedure is to make AT LEAST an intercept, that is sending armed warplanes to check it, we know those planes were in range for an intercept or at the very least try it (because of course at 9:30 they didn't know the target yet), and facts talks: the plane was not intercepted.
So evidence shows there was some sort of military stand down.

Watching the video on youtube you hear the phrase "HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY?" When Cheney says that he is replying to the question from the aid about the shootdown order. He is simply saying have you heard anything besides a shootdown order. If this standdown order was given... somthing the vice president is not in power to authorize then why were f15s scrambled already and prepared to intercept? (Someone really explain this one)

11b. The shootdown order for AA77 (the pentagon plane) was not given - even 9/11 commission report is very clear about it.
But the main issue here is that all the official version supporters cannot even acknowledge that Dick Cheney was in the room, aware and in command at 9:30, when the difference could be made. Mineta deposition under oath is clear. And page 40 of 9/11 commission report just states the opposite. It's an uncoincevable question for the supporters of the official version. They cannot even tell us WHO WAS IN CHARGE!

12. Why have only a few hundreds scientists/engineers/architects worldwide joined the movement and claim conspiracy?

12a. Please remember that you cannot use the "conspiracy" word to shun all who think the opposite of you. It's unfair and it's also wrong, because even the "official" version is a conspiracy theory! It's the "arab world vs western nations" conspiracy theory, involving AQ, OBL and 19 boxcutter armed suicide hijackers.

There are millions in each field. My suggestion is look up the credntials of these guys. As we have seen with Steven Jones... He has no credentials with structural engineering or earth physics... the guy studied astro physics.... That might be why the entire Engineering dept at his school went against him?

You can see a list of real world architects and engineers, all listed with name, surname, occupation, credentials, here: http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php
You can see another list of different kinds of professionals here: http://patriotsquestion911.com/
130+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
100+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
230+ Professors Question 9/11
200+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
130+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals

13. Why did no toher foreign intel agencies uncover the govt doing this? Certainly countries like Russia and China who would love to slander the U.S. govt are capable of finding such a plot. They would bring it to light instantly in order to destroy respect and reliance for the U.S. govt.

13. Because it's not their goal to provoke WW3.
And I'm sorry to tell you that your president managed to destroy all your nation credibility all alone by invading Iraq based on 935 deliberate lies. (FACT - your own intel agencies tell us this! See: )

Instead what was the chatter before 9/11? Increased terrorist chatter from Osama and point outs of a possible strike on the U.S.

13b. Yes, planted evidence works this way. 9/11 didn't start on 9/11/2001, it was carefully planned years ahead. Even only the planting of explosives and thermites cutting charges in the WTC in secret took months at best.

14. Why has Osama never admitted he is innocent? If he is so innocent why not admit it? Instead in every video he provokes the U.S. and gives reasoning behind the attack.

14. Because he's long since dead.
You can look for the last video interview of Benhazir Bhutto, before she was murdered. She tell the world WHO EXACTLY killed OBL. (It just skipped the front page of your free press, right? But they talked about poor Bhutto, right?)

[youtube]UnychOXj9Tg[/youtube]

He's now just a figure created to scare people into accepting civil rights reductions, greater military spending, and a couple of unfair wars.
But we could also reverse the issue here: with all the secret services in the world looking out for you, with echelon, all the increased spending in security... how is he capable of producing and deliver a tape every other month and still not be found? PLEASE!

15. So if this was a conspiracy I guess the Cole, Africa Embassies and WTC attack in 91 were all also conspiracies? Sorry but those were carried out by the same organization so if this was a fake as you claim then those were also because you are stating this terrorist network is basically a fake fear.

15. Maybe, I don't know about the others the same deal of what I know of 9/11. I can tell you JFK was shot from behind on the right and his head went to the left but backward. I can tell you that in WTC bombing in 91 (or was it 93?) the people who supplied the explosives to the terrorists was the FBI. I can tell you that the train bombed in London have the floor with dents going upward while the official story is that the bomb was shoulder carried and not below the trains... and I can tell you that AQ was the CIA unit created in the eighties to fight commies in afghanistan. If you want we could talk about these too, first start by googling that, you'll see OFFICIAL PAPERS show up. I wrote and really mean OFFICIAL PAPERS, not random conspiracy websites. Try it. God bless the internet!

16. Why since 9/11 have several major studies been done by MIT engineering and Purdue about the WTC all come up with similar findings to the comission? These were independent studies, not paid for or funded in any way by the govt. You guys keep saying another report must be done? Well many have by independent firms and schools and they are all disagreeing with your theory.

16. Haha! I, for one, a random italian IT specialist / teacher, proved wrong a PURDUE study, all alone; that's the level of expertise it takes do prove them wrong! See:
Look for their animation of planes vs WTC : the fuselage is weak and the engines are strong, they go all the way through (at time 2:00):
[youtube]3UvPWny_PBc[/youtube]
Look at their animation of plane vs Pentagon : the fuselage is strong and the engies DISAPPEAR! But the aluminium fuselage is so strong to make the 4-foot punch out hole at the third ring, only to disappear seconds later (at time: 0:33)
[youtube]XaIpIj2y3mM[/youtube]

What a deep study they made, isn't it? They could not even be consistent to themselves!

17. Why would the admin do 9/11 as an excuse for Iraq? Iraq focused little on terrorism and more on WMDs. There were no Iraqis on the planes that day, why plan to invade Iraq and claim terrorist ties but put no Iraqis who could then be said to have been funded by Saddam?

17. You ask me? I don't claim 9/11 was the excuse for Iraq. I claim 9/11 was the excuse for starting what is highlighted in the Project for a New American Century and Rebuilding American Defenses. Those official papers propose an increased spending in the military-industial complex, modernizing the army, but tell those trasformations would be slow unless "some sort of catalizing event, such a new pearl harbor, would happen".
Really.
Then look at the members who signed PNAC anc check that against the Bush administration senior figures. What a startling coincidence!

18. What benifit does the U.S. being in Afghanistan really play? I mean sure you can claim it gives us a base of operations over there... not really though we have military bases all over the region.

After you read even the main parts of PNAC you should know that "bases shoud be moved forward", and there's the need to create the need for "a permanent deployment of american armies in the oil rich region of middle east".
Iraq: a nightmare with no end in sight. Afghanistan: you remain until OBL is caught (what if he's already dead?). Iran: the next enemy is surrounded, and your media/administration is no light on accusing them of anything.
But as for afghanistan itself let me tell you something else you might have missed: in 2001 the taliban regime, following a strict muslim dictate, denounced all drugs as evil and burned many opium fields. Just as we saw again and again statues of bhudda being torn down they -also- did cause this heavy hit on drug worldwide, as opium gives you heroin. After they were removed - and after no one showed a connection between AQ/OBL and the taliban regime - in 2005 the opium production of afghanistan went back to full throttle, and afghanistan went back into being the top opium producer worldwide.
So the coalition troops can win against the taliban, but somehow they couldn't manage drug traffickers! Or something like that. Are we safe to say afghanistan invasion was at least an uncalled blessing for drug traffick? These are just dots, if you manage to connect them good for you, I didn't write any more of what I can prove - and you should check.

19. So why after all of these years has not ONE person involved turned up? Certainly people have values and feeling no matter how much money they were paid. This thing would have taken thousands of people to pull off and thousands more to pay off to keep quiet. So where are they all?

Well, you put a wrong conclusion right in the middle of the question: "Certainly people have values and feeling no matter how much money they were paid."
So you tell me a person who took part in the planning, execution or coverup of the murdering of 3000 own unarmed civilians suddently changes its mind, abjures its past self, and comes out with some sort of crucial element. All for feeling and values he never knew he had before. And he faces other people like his former self, ready to do anything, again for values and feelings.
Well, it seems this is YOUR BULLSHIT after all, not mine.

20. Why after your demo theory was proved bullshit did you guys move onto, missile pod then thermite and now possibly HAARP? Why are you guys so determined to prove this conspiracy true that you simply keep going further into space for possible causes.

20. The demo theory wasn't proved bullshit, not as 04/15/2008 that is. The gravitational collapse theory is, and NIST admitted a couple months ago that they didn't study the collapse dynamic (why?)
Missile pod is a common disinfo theory, a trojan horse defused on day two after it was presented. I don't support it, ask those who do.
And finally Haarp is linked to Chemtrails, why are you linking it to 9/11 is really a mystery to me.

21. Why is there no money trail or communication trail? Yes rumsfeld presented a few days before a massive ammount of money missing from within... OVER 12 YEARS HOWEVER!!! Do not claim that money went to 9/11... that money went to a govt spending on defense that is out of control adn foreign ops and arms sales done by the CIA most likely.

21a. Oh, and isn't it enough? Did you really grasp HOW MUCH MONEY IS THAT AMOUNT? $2,300,000,000,000. 2,3 million MILLION DOLLARS! I wrote 9/11 covered it up, because such a startling revelation was quickly forgotten in face of 9/11. Some devil advocate might think someone knew when was the right moment for such a revelation. The day before. But maybe it's just some other coincidence of that day.

Did the admin use morse code? As we have seen... emails and texts are impossible to erase... they can always be found. So where are the emails from Bush to the lowest people in the plot giving orders? NOTHING IS THERE!!!

21b. Noooo! Do you really believe this bullshit? Emails and texts impossible to erase?! Please tell me, I'm really eager to know where "we have seen" it. I'm an IT technician, but maybe you across the ocean managed it, so this is interesting two times: un-erasable data. Please please please. (this makes even with you calling people "morons")

23. Why do you claim the media is so biased and corrupt? Okay so the media may not present the best stuff always... HOWEVER... What about independent journalists? The ones that uncovered... Abu-Garhib, CIA torture flights, Walter Reed, Email scandal, GITMO, BlackWater... and dozens more scandals which this admin has not been able t keep quiet... why cant these same guys seem to find anything on 9/11? NOT THERE MAYBE???

23. Maybe, or maybe not. I don't have your same blind faith in Free press, even if they did it right in some occasions I proved to you that they hid Mineta deposition, they hid Bhutto last interview, I bet you didn't know shit about afghanistan, pnac, like you didn't know on which exactly are the biggest issues of 9/11.
If those people are too scared to talk about 9/11 I feel sorry for them, but I don't blame them. I prefer to talk facts, like those I presented.

24. Why are you so bent on finding a ct that in all probibility does not exist? There are things such as genocide ocruing in this world, Global Warming should be considered for the future.... or are things like that all a huge conspiracy also?

24. Let's say that because as an italian I owe "you" for freeing us from the Facists, I think the least I can do to repay my debt is to do my little to help U.S. free themselves from the terrorists that planned, executed and covered up 9/11.
And how do you know that I'm not active on genocides and the global warming scam? I posted about chemtrails in this very website. What about you? Any hard evidence to share?

NOTE: Organizations need to pull off plot: CIA, FBI, NSA, CONGRESS, PENTAGON, ARMY, NAVY, AIRFORCE, FDNY, NYPD, AA, UNITED, MI6, ALL FOREIGN INTEL SERVICES, DEMO CREWS, and many more I am sure I am leaving out.

Note. You may google Operation Northwoods, the clandestine US plan to provoke a war and invasion of Cuba through self-inflicted acts of terrorism on american soil, including downing a fake commercial flight substituted by a drone (and that was the sixties!). That would take the same amount of planning and personnel as 9/11, and it's a real US military plan which was de-secreted after a recent FOIA request. Surely you read of it in your mainstream media, right? You have free press, inquisitive, unbiased press, right?

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Thanks Manu, maybe could you ask your friend to answer "where was Dick Cheney at 9:30 on 9/11/2001" for me? It's the a single simple question everyone avoids. Thanks.