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    Default What are the risks and benefits of each vaccine?

    1 doctor's perspective

    https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/w...nd-benefits-of


    The Forgotten Side of Medicine
    What are the risks and benefits of each vaccine?
    The COVID-19 vaccines have provided a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to answer this question.

    A MIDWESTERN DOCTOR
    APR 5, 2023
    A major problem I see throughout the scientific and political sphere is that people cannot maintain a perspective that allows them to see the whole picture; rather they tend to focus or fixate on things they have some type of emotional or subconscious priming to focus on (this has been an issue throughout history). This is why you can say have someone be around an individual they like and primarily registers the one good thing the individual did (while ignoring all the bad things) and conversely why they will ignore all the good things another individual they don’t like is trying so hard to do and focus on the one bad thing that individual did.

    This human tendency ends up becoming a huge problem because the media will emotionally condition the public to focus on the one side on an issue which favors its corporate sponsors. This in turn leads to these people getting up in arms about that one point when individuals who dissent against the corporate narrative try to highlight the issues that greatly outweigh any purported benefit of the narrative.

    This is particularly common with complex issues (which are difficult to understand to begin with) and one of my longstanding frustrations has been that despite the harms of vaccines greatly outweighing their benefits, many you bring this up to can only register the danger of the (often insignificant disease) the vaccine allegedly protects against. In my eyes, one of the upsides about COVID-19 is that this selective reframing of reality and the medias lies to maintain it went to such an extreme extent, much of the public became able to realize it was absurd and started taking the time to try and fully understand the subject.

    One of the common questions I get from readers relates to another complex question—which vaccines are safe for their kids, and which ones are a bad idea? This is surprisingly difficult to answer because you must weigh the likelihood of an adverse event from a vaccination vs. the likelihood of suffering a complication from the disease that the vaccine would prevent you from getting and compute an figure that takes the weighted average of each into consideration.

    In order make this determination, you need to consider all of the following:

    Disease Risk
    How likely is it for a person to get the disease?

    Some diseases we vaccinate against are incredibly rare (e.g., tetanus).

    How likely is the disease to cause a negligible, minor, moderate, severe, or fatal complication?

    It is very important to distinguish between these categories because, for most infections, the risk of you catching it and then it becoming a severe condition is extremely low. For example, a Neisseria meningitidis infection (which can cause septic meningitis) is really bad and can progress very quickly, but also very rare for people to develop (one in ten people are asymptomatic carriers whereas approximately one in a million get it a year).

    How likely is it that the severity of the disease can be improved with an existing medical treatment?

    Most of the infections we vaccinate against are very easy to treat. Unfortunately, the focus is always on vaccinating against the disease rather than providing treatment for it (especially if the treatment is something more unorthodox than an antibiotic). In the case of COVID-19, while severe complications represent the minority of cases, they (and the more minor ones) can in most cases easily be prevented by early outpatient treatment. Unfortunately, the Federal government has refused to disclose to the public what the effective treatments are for it (presumably because it would make it impossible to continue making money off COVID-19).

    How likely is it that you will have access to the necessary treatment before you get seriously ill?

    Although I dislike the vaccine approach, I have to acknowledge that this is one of the strongest arguments for it. For rapidly progressing diseases, for those in isolated areas, for those unable to recognize their need to seek medical care, and for those of limited economic means, they often cannot get the necessary treatment for the disease before it is too late to prevent a severe complication.

    In general, it’s very rare that a vaccine-preventable disease has both a significant likelihood that you will get it and a significant likelihood that it will develop into a severe condition. Many of those believed to fall into this category are no longer an issue in the United States (e.g., polio or smallpox), regardless of whether or not you are vaccinated, but people who look at this question are often fixated on the past presentations of the disease when it was more pathogenic or when we did not have a way to treat it.

    Vaccine Efficacy
    How likely is the vaccine to be effective in preventing the disease, and do the presence of vaccine antibodies correlate with a decreased risk of the disease?
    .....
    https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/w...nd-benefits-of
    Last edited by revelarts; 07-29-2023 at 03:47 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    1 doctor's perspective

    https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/w...nd-benefits-of


    The Forgotten Side of Medicine
    What are the risks and benefits of each vaccine?
    The COVID-19 vaccines have provided a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to answer this question.

    A MIDWESTERN DOCTOR
    APR 5, 2023
    A major problem I see throughout the scientific and political sphere is that people cannot maintain a perspective that allows them to see the whole picture; rather they tend to focus or fixate on things they have some type of emotional or subconscious priming to focus on (this has been an issue throughout history). This is why you can say have someone be around an individual they like and primarily registers the one good thing the individual did (while ignoring all the bad things) and conversely why they will ignore all the good things another individual they don’t like is trying so hard to do and focus on the one bad thing that individual did.

    This human tendency ends up becoming a huge problem because the media will emotionally condition the public to focus on the one side on an issue which favors its corporate sponsors. This in turn leads to these people getting up in arms about that one point when individuals who dissent against the corporate narrative try to highlight the issues that greatly outweigh any purported benefit of the narrative.

    This is particularly common with complex issues (which are difficult to understand to begin with) and one of my longstanding frustrations has been that despite the harms of vaccines greatly outweighing their benefits, many you bring this up to can only register the danger of the (often insignificant disease) the vaccine allegedly protects against. In my eyes, one of the upsides about COVID-19 is that this selective reframing of reality and the medias lies to maintain it went to such an extreme extent, much of the public became able to realize it was absurd and started taking the time to try and fully understand the subject.

    One of the common questions I get from readers relates to another complex question—which vaccines are safe for their kids, and which ones are a bad idea? This is surprisingly difficult to answer because you must weigh the likelihood of an adverse event from a vaccination vs. the likelihood of suffering a complication from the disease that the vaccine would prevent you from getting and compute an figure that takes the weighted average of each into consideration.

    In order make this determination, you need to consider all of the following:

    Disease Risk
    How likely is it for a person to get the disease?

    Some diseases we vaccinate against are incredibly rare (e.g., tetanus).

    How likely is the disease to cause a negligible, minor, moderate, severe, or fatal complication?

    It is very important to distinguish between these categories because, for most infections, the risk of you catching it and then it becoming a severe condition is extremely low. For example, a Neisseria meningitidis infection (which can cause septic meningitis) is really bad and can progress very quickly, but also very rare for people to develop (one in ten people are asymptomatic carriers whereas approximately one in a million get it a year).

    How likely is it that the severity of the disease can be improved with an existing medical treatment?

    Most of the infections we vaccinate against are very easy to treat. Unfortunately, the focus is always on vaccinating against the disease rather than providing treatment for it (especially if the treatment is something more unorthodox than an antibiotic). In the case of COVID-19, while severe complications represent the minority of cases, they (and the more minor ones) can in most cases easily be prevented by early outpatient treatment. Unfortunately, the Federal government has refused to disclose to the public what the effective treatments are for it (presumably because it would make it impossible to continue making money off COVID-19).

    How likely is it that you will have access to the necessary treatment before you get seriously ill?

    Although I dislike the vaccine approach, I have to acknowledge that this is one of the strongest arguments for it. For rapidly progressing diseases, for those in isolated areas, for those unable to recognize their need to seek medical care, and for those of limited economic means, they often cannot get the necessary treatment for the disease before it is too late to prevent a severe complication.

    In general, it’s very rare that a vaccine-preventable disease has both a significant likelihood that you will get it and a significant likelihood that it will develop into a severe condition. Many of those believed to fall into this category are no longer an issue in the United States (e.g., polio or smallpox), regardless of whether or not you are vaccinated, but people who look at this question are often fixated on the past presentations of the disease when it was more pathogenic or when we did not have a way to treat it.

    Vaccine Efficacy
    How likely is the vaccine to be effective in preventing the disease, and do the presence of vaccine antibodies correlate with a decreased risk of the disease?
    .....
    https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/w...nd-benefits-of
    Want to play it safe--just say ffkk the vaccine...
    but government has already found ways to punish that free choice.
    But that makes government look to be dictatorial, eh?
    Well guess what= that is because it is... .--Tyr
    Last edited by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot; 07-29-2023 at 06:40 PM.
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    Want to play it safe--just say ffkk the vaccine...
    but government has already found ways to punish that free choice.
    But that makes government look to be dictatorial, eh?
    Well guess what= that is because it is... .--Tyr

    as long as it still bails out the banks and takes the corporate side in matters it's ok with libertarians.

    corporations are morally perfect cuz reasons.
    Last edited by AHZ; 07-30-2023 at 11:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHZ View Post
    ... libertarians.
    Something else I can add to the list of things you don't understand.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Something else I can add to the list of things you don't understand.
    set us all straight then, cletus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    1 doctor's perspective

    https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/w...nd-benefits-of


    The Forgotten Side of Medicine
    What are the risks and benefits of each vaccine?
    The COVID-19 vaccines have provided a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to answer this question.

    A MIDWESTERN DOCTOR
    APR 5, 2023
    A major problem I see throughout the scientific and political sphere is that people cannot maintain a perspective that allows them to see the whole picture; rather they tend to focus or fixate on things they have some type of emotional or subconscious priming to focus on (this has been an issue throughout history). This is why you can say have someone be around an individual they like and primarily registers the one good thing the individual did (while ignoring all the bad things) and conversely why they will ignore all the good things another individual they don’t like is trying so hard to do and focus on the one bad thing that individual did.

    This human tendency ends up becoming a huge problem because the media will emotionally condition the public to focus on the one side on an issue which favors its corporate sponsors. This in turn leads to these people getting up in arms about that one point when individuals who dissent against the corporate narrative try to highlight the issues that greatly outweigh any purported benefit of the narrative.

    This is particularly common with complex issues (which are difficult to understand to begin with) and one of my longstanding frustrations has been that despite the harms of vaccines greatly outweighing their benefits, many you bring this up to can only register the danger of the (often insignificant disease) the vaccine allegedly protects against. In my eyes, one of the upsides about COVID-19 is that this selective reframing of reality and the medias lies to maintain it went to such an extreme extent, much of the public became able to realize it was absurd and started taking the time to try and fully understand the subject.

    One of the common questions I get from readers relates to another complex question—which vaccines are safe for their kids, and which ones are a bad idea? This is surprisingly difficult to answer because you must weigh the likelihood of an adverse event from a vaccination vs. the likelihood of suffering a complication from the disease that the vaccine would prevent you from getting and compute an figure that takes the weighted average of each into consideration.

    In order make this determination, you need to consider all of the following:

    Disease Risk
    How likely is it for a person to get the disease?

    Some diseases we vaccinate against are incredibly rare (e.g., tetanus).

    How likely is the disease to cause a negligible, minor, moderate, severe, or fatal complication?

    It is very important to distinguish between these categories because, for most infections, the risk of you catching it and then it becoming a severe condition is extremely low. For example, a Neisseria meningitidis infection (which can cause septic meningitis) is really bad and can progress very quickly, but also very rare for people to develop (one in ten people are asymptomatic carriers whereas approximately one in a million get it a year).

    How likely is it that the severity of the disease can be improved with an existing medical treatment?

    Most of the infections we vaccinate against are very easy to treat. Unfortunately, the focus is always on vaccinating against the disease rather than providing treatment for it (especially if the treatment is something more unorthodox than an antibiotic). In the case of COVID-19, while severe complications represent the minority of cases, they (and the more minor ones) can in most cases easily be prevented by early outpatient treatment. Unfortunately, the Federal government has refused to disclose to the public what the effective treatments are for it (presumably because it would make it impossible to continue making money off COVID-19).

    How likely is it that you will have access to the necessary treatment before you get seriously ill?

    Although I dislike the vaccine approach, I have to acknowledge that this is one of the strongest arguments for it. For rapidly progressing diseases, for those in isolated areas, for those unable to recognize their need to seek medical care, and for those of limited economic means, they often cannot get the necessary treatment for the disease before it is too late to prevent a severe complication.

    In general, it’s very rare that a vaccine-preventable disease has both a significant likelihood that you will get it and a significant likelihood that it will develop into a severe condition. Many of those believed to fall into this category are no longer an issue in the United States (e.g., polio or smallpox), regardless of whether or not you are vaccinated, but people who look at this question are often fixated on the past presentations of the disease when it was more pathogenic or when we did not have a way to treat it.

    Vaccine Efficacy
    How likely is the vaccine to be effective in preventing the disease, and do the presence of vaccine antibodies correlate with a decreased risk of the disease?
    .....
    https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/w...nd-benefits-of
    Sound reasoning. Don't agree with some of his conclusions. Especially downplaying the deaths attributable to COVID. I have stated from the beginning of the COVID pandemic that individuals need to choose whether or not they want to get vaccinated based on individual circumstance.

    As the author touches upon, most preferred to react emotionally. That leads to distorted views and decisions.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Sound reasoning. Don't agree with some of his conclusions. Especially downplaying the deaths attributable to COVID. I have stated from the beginning of the COVID pandemic that individuals need to choose whether or not they want to get vaccinated based on individual circumstance.

    As the author touches upon, most preferred to react emotionally. That leads to distorted views and decisions.
    Well a lot of people get emotional when they see government pointing guns at them to force its edicts.
    Fed has loads of power if it disallows certain Constitutional rights we have. While it applies new made rules to give it dictatorial authority.
    Right now most the dem/lib government types are a bit nazi-light.. Just give them a few more months and watch their fangs suddenly grow..-Tyr
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHZ View Post
    set us all straight then, cletus.
    "All" don't need to be set straight. You need to do some reading.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    "All" don't need to be set straight. You need to do some reading.

    from all your extensive reading, explain why it's smart to send all the jobs away.

    you can't.

    all your beliefs are a pile of bullshit. you're a fucking idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AHZ View Post
    from all your extensive reading, explain why it's smart to send all the jobs away.

    you can't.

    all your beliefs are a pile of bullshit. you're a fucking idiot.
    Asked an answered in other threads where that might have tangentially been related to the particular topic. This thread is about the covid vaccine.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by AHZ View Post
    from all your extensive reading, explain why it's smart to send all the jobs away.

    you can't.

    all your beliefs are a pile of bullshit. you're a fucking idiot.
    This is how you get thread banned


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    This is how you get thread banned
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    FYI
    Last edited by revelarts; 06-13-2024 at 03:58 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    4.2. Conclusions

    Adult vaccinations prevent substantial morbidity, disability and death among adults and have cost-effectiveness profiles that are considered favorable across multiple age- and medical-indication-based recommendations. Efforts to increase the implementation of adult vaccination recommendations, including communication of the economic value of adult vaccines to providers and patients and addressing barriers to implementation, are needed.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6545890/

    Results: Current adult vaccination coverage (vs. no vaccination) is estimated to result in nearly 65 million averted disease cases, $185 billion averted costs of cases, and $136 billion in incremental vaccination costs over a 30-year period from a societal perspective (BCR = 1.4). Increased vaccination coverage (vs. current coverage) is associated with over 33 million additional averted disease cases, $96 billion additional averted costs of cases, and nearly $83 billion in incremental vaccination costs, resulting in a societal BCR of 1.2 over 30 years. Deterministic sensitivity analyses demonstrated that results were most sensitive to disease incidence, vaccine efficacy, and productivity costs for time required for vaccination.
    Conclusions: Study results highlight the economic value of vaccination programs for older adults in the US and indicate that efforts to further increase vaccination coverage may be warranted and economically justifiable.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34334253/

    Economic, equity, and global health benefits of vaccines

    Vaccines can have several economic benefits.3,10 One of the most discernible benefits is averted medical expenditure. By preventing an episode of the disease through a vaccine, the economic costs of treatment, such as physician fees, drugs and hospitalization expenses, and associated travel costs and wage loss of caregivers could be averted. This is particularly important for low and middle-income countries (LMICs) where a large part of medical expenditure is out-of-pocket. A clear example is the situation in India, where 65% of health expenditure is private, with extreme costs in some cases, which thrusts 51 million people into poverty every year.2,11,12 It is estimated that the measles, rotavirus, and pneumococcal conjugate vaccines could help avert $4.6 billion (2016 US$, adjusted for purchasing power parity) in out-of-pocket medical expenses in 41 Gavi-eligible LMICs during 2016–2030.13 Vaccines could also reduce the number of people who fall into poverty due to a catastrophic medical expense which is defined as a large proportion (typically, more than 10% to 25%) of household income or expenditure.12,14-20
    ...
    Concluding remarks

    Childhood vaccines have numerous positive effects beyond disease prevention. The concept of broader benefits of vaccines which would include cognition, schooling, economic productivity, fertility, and related outcomes was first proposed by a key 2005 article.80 During the present decade, researchers have utilized and expanded this framework across several dimensions and country contexts.76,77,81-85
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7482790/

    Oh, and BTW, vaccines do not contain aborted fetal cells.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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