Big Brother Growing

[AHZ]

Then what are we talking about?
might makes right then Gunny.

If that's the case you have nothing to complain about at all.
the military should rule. the constitution is just a piece of paper. GWB said the same.

USMil ...gunnys and above... don't need to recognize utopian words or any words on pieces of paper.
Becasue they are in the real world. They just need the words of COs to neutralize threats to America. whatever they think they are.

Do the uniforms mean they have to fight together? just pieces of cloth btw.
Any oaths (words) you say mean anything in the real world?
Since they are just words. In fact oaths aren't even on a piece of paper.
Words of the law used in court martials mean anything?
Words of an officer mean anything? Aren't they are just words.

Seems they all mean something. If people follow them.
And It's my understanding that when orders are given they are supposed to be followed.
Even if the soldiers don't agree with the words.
So if someone doesn't agree that the words of Constitution can be followed ...in some cases...
But they swore an oath to OBEY IT,
and swore an oath to protect it.
What do those oaths even mean... in the real world?

If they don't want to obey it what does it make them?

You're god damned right I did!

[Gunny]

Then what are we talking about?
might makes right then Gunny.

If that's the case you have nothing to complain about at all.
the military should rule. the constitution is just a piece of paper. GWB said the same.

USMil ...gunnys and above... don't need to recognize utopian words or any words on pieces of paper.
Becasue they are in the real world. They just need the words of COs to neutralize threats to America. whatever they think they are.

Do the uniforms mean they have to fight together? just pieces of cloth btw.
Any oaths (words) you say mean anything in the real world?
Since they are just words. In fact oaths aren't even on a piece of paper.
Words of the law used in court martials mean anything?
Words of an officer mean anything? Aren't they are just words.

Seems they all mean something. If people follow them.
And It's my understanding that when orders are given they are supposed to be followed.
Even if the soldiers don't agree with the words.
So if someone doesn't agree that the words of the Constitution can be followed ...in some cases...
But they swore an oath to OBEY IT,
and swore an oath to protect it.
What do those oaths even mean... in the real world?

If they don't want to obey it what does it make them?

Trying to shoot the messenger doesn't change the message a bit. You know what turns the ideal embodied in the Constitution into mere words? People who won't defend those ideals.

Attacking me is pointless. I did not create Man. I did not create society. I did not create the 7 deadly sins. What I did, unlike you, was see the reality that those ideals have to be defended by more than words because all those bad guys with guns don't care what you have to say. They respect force superior to their own.

Don't like it? Wave your magic wand and make it different. Until you can, your ideals and freedom to have them come at the expense of those wiling to die for them. You seem to think they are inherent. Because you exist; therefore, it must be so. It's called forgetting who brung you to the dance.

How again was it this Nation was formed? All that idealism the Founding Fathers put into action came AFTER established the right to do so by defeating Great Britain in a war. They risked being hanged as traitors and the people risked dying in battle and/or atrocities at the hands of the British soldiers. What would those ideals be worth had they not won?

Not a lot of reality to your argument. It's nice to have dreams. Not at the expense of understanding the real world you live in.

[icansayit]

[revelarts]

Trying to shoot the messenger doesn't change the message a bit. You know what turns the ideal embodied in the Constitution into mere words? People who won't defend those ideals.

Attacking me is pointless. I did not create Man. I did not create society. I did not create the 7 deadly sins. What I did, unlike you, was see the reality that those ideals have to be defended by more than words because all those bad guys with guns don't care what you have to say. They respect force superior to their own.

Don't like it? Wave your magic wand and make it different. Until you can, your ideals and freedom to have them come at the expense of those wiling to die for them. You seem to think they are inherent. Because you exist; therefore, it must be so. It's called forgetting who brung you to the dance.

How again was it this Nation was formed? All that idealism the Founding Fathers put into action came AFTER established the right to do so by defeating Great Britain in a war. They risked being hanged as traitors and the people risked dying in battle and/or atrocities at the hands of the British soldiers. What would those ideals be worth had they not won?

Not a lot of reality to your argument. It's nice to have dreams. Not at the expense of understanding the real world you live in.

Here's the thing gunny you seem to think the constitution is JUST Ideals and NOT the LAW.
Not ORDERS to follow.
You think you know better.
And have a better way because somehow the founders who fought the largest empire in the world to create the country didn't understand human nature.
Sorry, but you've got it completely backwards.
the Constitution understands human nature better than nearly all laws that come after.
That's the reason it does NOT give gov't the power to do certain things. Why it leave it in the hands of the States and the People. Because it understands the nature of men with power.
It's the main thing document tries to reign in. And why It DID NOT grant the federal gov't certain powers. even in emergencies.

It seems the real problem is you simply do not TRUST that the constitution can be implemented in "real world" and think you have a better way. A way where you ignore it in certain places and certain times because "Human NATURE".
But somehow when the left says & does just the same thing, ignores parts of the constitution, because of some other negative aspect of human nature that the GOV"T HAS TO deal with. You act like they've done something wrong. They are Eroding the constitution. But you are preserving when you ignore it... in the real world.

You keep talking about fighting for the the constitution, but don't think it's practical or "real" enough to follow.
So what are you really fighting for? Some bits and pieces of it? Your idea of the "real world" parts?
I don't get it.

But you're not the only one, many people do not really believe the constitution should be followed.
But say they love it. and will fight for it.
OK really? the Constitution? Just a bunch of idealitic words on a piece of paper.
the idea of AMERICA. and of course their families. I think is more what many are thinking of. what they'll fight for.
Or the FLAG, can't have anyone besmirch the FLAG. Folks fight for that i guess. People have died for the FLAG.
it's NOT just a piece of Cloth.

But the constitution? naaaw. It's an idealistic unrealistic piece of paper that can't defend itself and no one should try to live by because it doesn't account for the horror show of human nature and it's often just a suicide pack.

that's what I'm hearing here.
GWB HAD TO spy on every American and do everything in the patriot act, torture, jail without trial, etc.
eventhough it ALL was unconstitutional.... it was the ONLY way to save America.
"Granting" people trials and privacy and such would not work. Because Human Nature.
You know I hear the PTA meetings really get outta hand, human nature.
Can't let the constitution HANDCUFF the gov't..
"do you want people to die?"

[Gunny]

Here's the thing gunny you seem to think the constitution is JUST Ideals and NOT the LAW.
Not ORDERS to follow.
You think you know better.
And have a better way because somehow the founders who fought the largest empire in the world to create the country didn't understand human nature.
Sorry, but you've got it completely backwards.
the Constitution understands human nature better than nearly all laws that come after.
That's the reason it does NOT give gov't the power to do certain things. Why it leave it in the hands of the States and the People. Because it understands the nature of men with power.
It's the main thing document tries to reign in. And why It DID NOT grant the federal gov't certain powers. even in emergencies.

It seems the real problem is you simply do not TRUST that the constitution can be implemented in "real world" and think you have a better way. A way where you ignore it in certain places and certain times because "Human NATURE".
But somehow when the left says & does just the same thing, ignores parts of the constitution, because of some other negative aspect of human nature that the GOV"T HAS TO deal with. You act like they've done something wrong. They are Eroding the constitution. But you are preserving when you ignore it... in the real world.

You keep talking about fighting for the the constitution, but don't think it's practical or "real" enough to follow.
So what are you really fighting for? Some bits and pieces of it? Your idea of the "real world" parts?
I don't get it.

But you're not the only one, many people do not really believe the constitution should be followed.
But say they love it. and will fight for it.
OK really? the Constitution? Just a bunch of idealitic words on a piece of paper.
the idea of AMERICA. and of course their families. I think is more what many are thinking of. what they'll fight for.
Or the FLAG, can't have anyone besmirch the FLAG. Folks fight for that i guess. People have died for the FLAG.
it's NOT just a piece of Cloth.

But the constitution? naaaw. It's an idealistic unrealistic piece of paper that can't defend itself and no one should try to live by because it doesn't account for the horror show of human nature and it's often just a suicide pack.

that's what I'm hearing here.
GWB HAD TO spy on every American and do everything in the patriot act, torture, jail without trial, etc.
eventhough it ALL was unconstitutional.... it was the ONLY way to save America.
"Granting" people trials and privacy and such would not work. Because Human Nature.
You know I hear the PTA meetings really get outta hand, human nature.
Can't let the constitution HANDCUFF the gov't..
"do you want people to die?"

You're the one so lost in trying to be right you're not reading a single word. The Constitution is law. And?

I didn't say the Founders didn't understand human nature. I said YOU don't. The rest is you building a story on your incorrect assumptions.

Think what you want. I'll die defending the Constitution if need be while you can try and talk to death the people wiping their feet on it.

[revelarts]

You're the one so lost in trying to be right you're not reading a single word. The Constitution is law. And?

I didn't say the Founders didn't understand human nature. I said YOU don't. The rest is you building a story on your incorrect assumptions.

Think what you want. I'll die defending the Constitution if need be while you can try and talk to death the people wiping their feet on it.

So you're saying that since you say that you are ok with wiping your feet on the constitution... for emergencies... in the real world.
That i should shoot you instead of talk to you?
Seriously?

[Gunny]

So you're saying that since you say that you are ok with wiping your feet on the constitution... for emergencies... in the real world.
That i should shoot you instead of talk to you?
Seriously?

Blow things out of proportion much? You're being ridiculous and emotional and not at all discussing a an issue. God is absolute. Government is not. Your very argument is what makes the Constitution a suicide pact. You use the Constitution to allow it to be destroyed.

I'm all for people using common sense and logic and never getting it to the point of it being torn down one piece at a time. Still waiting for your chitty-chatting to work on those doing the destroying. They just say "no we're not" and continue on.

Great ideas, Rev. Wrong point in history.

[revelarts]

Blow things out of proportion much? You're being ridiculous and emotional and not at all discussing a an issue. God is absolute. Government is not. Your very argument is what makes the Constitution a suicide pact. You use the Constitution to allow it to be destroyed.

I'm all for people using common sense and logic and never getting it to the point of it being torn down one piece at a time. Still waiting for your chitty-chatting to work on those doing the destroying. They just say "no we're not" and continue on.

Great ideas, Rev. Wrong point in history.

lol.
You're the one that implied i needed to "fight for it", like you, rather than just talk people to death while they ignore it.

We agree Gov't is not absolute, and is not God, that's why it should not have the power to spy on our phone conservations and toss people in jail without due process etc etc..
If enough people like yourself took fighting for THAT as seriously as whatever you say you'll fight for then it would not have happened or would have been repealed by now.

but at this point people are still looking for "viable" candidates, not demanding candidates that will fight for constitutional law and limited gov't.

but hey, that's human nature too. go along to get along.

[Gunny]

lol.
You're the one that implied i needed to "fight for it", like you, rather than just talk people to death while they ignore it.

We agree Gov't is not absolute, and is not God, that's why it should not have the power to spy on our phone conservations and toss people in jail without due process etc etc..
If enough people like yourself took fighting for THAT as seriously as whatever you say you'll fight for then it would not have happened or would have been repealed by now.

but at this point people are still looking for "viable" candidates, not demanding candidates that will fight for constitutional law and limited gov't.

but hey, that's human nature too. go along to get along.

Re-circling the wagons?

We've been through this. What we agree on is the US Constitution is supposed to be the law of the land. THE inherent weakness to the Constitution is it has to be protected by government. When government is the biggest abuser, yet can declare itself Constitutional, there's an obvious problem.

You need to read more of what is in my posts. I have steadfastly, since the dawn of whenever been for small government and government at the lowest level. I will vote for candidates who are for that so long as they aren't whacky about something else. When exactly was the last time we have heard this idea even mentioned by a political candidate? Kind of hard to vote for something not there.

I have railed about the choices voters make and the consequences they bring at each and every turn. Much to the chagrin and angst of the board "everybody's a victim" poster. Not sure how you can have missed THAT What those morons in DC do might not be the peoples' fault, but putting them there to do it damned sure is.

I vote every election. Not sure how much more serious you think your voting is than mine, but both equal the same number in the end. Your dancing in and out between reality and idealism doesn't do anything but present a flawed picture.

Like I said, we agree on the law, but we don't agree that voting is going to pull us out of where we are and cure all ills. That doesn't mean I don't vote. It just means I', waiting for the next hammer to fall instead of placing all my hopes in a broken, corrupt system.

[revelarts]

Re-circling the wagons?

We've been through this. What we agree on is the US Constitution is supposed to be the law of the land. THE inherent weakness to the Constitution is it has to be protected by government. When government is the biggest abuser, yet can declare itself Constitutional, there's an obvious problem.

You need to read more of what is in my posts. I have steadfastly, since the dawn of whenever been for small government and government at the lowest level. I will vote for candidates who are for that so long as they aren't whacky about something else. When exactly was the last time we have heard this idea even mentioned by a political candidate? Kind of hard to vote for something not there.

I have railed about the choices voters make and the consequences they bring at each and every turn. Much to the chagrin and angst of the board "everybody's a victim" poster. Not sure how you can have missed THAT What those morons in DC do might not be the peoples' fault, but putting them there to do it damned sure is.

I vote every election. Not sure how much more serious you think your voting is than mine, but both equal the same number in the end. Your dancing in and out between reality and idealism doesn't do anything but present a flawed picture.

Like I said, we agree on the law, but we don't agree that voting is going to pull us out of where we are and cure all ills. That doesn't mean I don't vote. It just means I', waiting for the next hammer to fall instead of placing all my hopes in a broken, corrupt system.

"... government is the biggest abuser.... morons in DC... I'm waiting for the next hammer to fall instead of placing all my hopes in a broken, corrupt system."

what?!
Hmm, sounds like you're just paranoid and "hate everything about the gov't" Gunny.
Looks like we do have a lot in common so, why when i point out things the gov't has done wrong, you're johnny on the spot to defend it and condemn ME.
As if I've done wrong by pointing out the clear flaws of the broken & corrupt system... too much. do you think it's LESS flawed than i do? and want to defend the "good parts" or working parts?
What's up with that man?

You just making conversation? it is kinda fun though right?
"As Rome burns" as they say.

[Gunny]

"... government is the biggest abuser.... morons in DC... I'm waiting for the next hammer to fall instead of placing all my hopes in a broken, corrupt system."

what?!
Hmm, sounds like you're just paranoid and "hate everything about the gov't" Gunny.
Looks like we do have a lot in common so, why when i point out things the gov't has done wrong, you're johnny on the spot to defend it and condemn ME.
As if I've done wrong by pointing out the clear flaws of the broken & corrupt system... too much. do you think it's LESS flawed than i do? and want to defend the "good parts" or working parts?
What's up with that man?

You just making conversation? it is kinda fun though right?
"As Rome burns" as they say.

I've been saying the same thing for years, long before you came along. I defend against your broad brush.

If you look at a lot of what I have posted over the last few months, what is the general theme(s)? Social science. The people. Government. Where we are as a nation. Where we are heading. Possible ways to change what is and affect what will be.

You want to read between the lines