Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 28 of 28
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    47,943
    Thanks (Given)
    24240
    Thanks (Received)
    17745
    Likes (Given)
    9906
    Likes (Received)
    6371
    Piss Off (Given)
    85
    Piss Off (Received)
    10
    Mentioned
    204 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475528

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    agreed, plenty of non christians are disgusted by the modern crap.
    as i said
    ---And here's the thing, Christianity, at it's best, will go along anyone to do good. They don't have to be Christians.
    Many atheist and people who don't care about religion are NOT [I]necessarily PUT OFF by Christians standing up against a lot of this mess simply because they do it while wearing a Bible verse t-Shirt or wearing a collar. Pro-Life Atheist work with Religious pro-lifers. and we use all the same arguments PLUS religious reasons.
    But if we don't show up and say so against all this other crap, what are we doing as Christians?---


    I know non-christians who are open minded enough NOT to be put off by my beliefs, just as I'm not by theirs.
    They are not so sensitive that they can't stand to work with someone whose "religious".
    Not long ago some non-christian folks in city council actually started quietly requesting the churches to step up and help in the schools.
    As long as we're not acting like -Westboro church-. I don't think we need to be as afraid of offending people as is being made out here.
    Maybe I'm misunderstand what you want? It sounds like we are in agreement, while I believed you were advocating a 'cultural' agreement or something like based upon 'Christian beliefs'? That we share values isn't surprising to me, regardless of some other differences. We both seem to be in agreement that many agree with our values, whether or not they agree with our beliefs.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


  2. Likes revelarts, RoccoR liked this post
  3. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,358
    Thanks (Given)
    4841
    Thanks (Received)
    4730
    Likes (Given)
    2726
    Likes (Received)
    1653
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14075398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Maybe I'm misunderstand what you want? It sounds like we are in agreement, while I believed you were advocating a 'cultural' agreement or something like based upon 'Christian beliefs'? That we share values isn't surprising to me, regardless of some other differences. We both seem to be in agreement that many agree with our values, whether or not they agree with our beliefs.
    right
    I'm not saying that EVERYONE has to believe what i believe. What i'm saying is that non-christians have no real historical or philosophical basis to resist any of the woke crazies ideas.
    Decent non-Christians POVs are based in the same FEELINGS that the woke folk's are.

    Decent folks believe in the same morals as you or I but they just don't have foundation for it. Just "gut feeling", traditional upbringing plus some common sense.

    I'm saying we should not be afraid to say what we believe and work with anyone who aligns with those beliefs.
    And that saying what we believe and talking about the history of culture will at times strengthen our case ...and sometime might weaken it in a civic arena.
    But that AS Christians we are told to say it no matter what. because it's not just "our religion" it's THE TRUTH. Reality.
    it doesn't matter if others don't believe it.
    the sun and stars aren't real because we can see them.
    they'd still be real even if everyone was blind.

    God's not subject to our belief, people will find out eventually.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-02-2024 at 07:03 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  4. Thanks Kathianne thanked this post
  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    48,322
    Thanks (Given)
    34738
    Thanks (Received)
    26780
    Likes (Given)
    2624
    Likes (Received)
    10236
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    12
    Mentioned
    377 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    "I repeatedly made the distinction that one cannot use "God" as a selling point to the segment of society that has all the same morals and rules but refuses to accept where they come from, and can wordsmith a logical argument without God. Why alienate or throw out otherwise good, productive people because they choose to follow their own religion or not? "

    & I repeatedly made the distinction that you CAN NOT make/SELL most of the same morals without the God of the Bible.
    I repeatedly asked you and FJ to do it but you never did.

    What's the logical wordsmithed arguments against polygamy, homosexuality, and p0dos Gunny?
    Why shouldn't someone steal or kill if it works for them, their family, neighborhood or city Gunny?

    As you've pointed out, and we agree, not everyone has the same POV, religious or otherwise.

    If you have (or can point to) the wordsmithed logical arguments to get society to align with what we both generally understand to be good morals for society, I'd be glad to embrace it with you.
    But I'm not seeing that information coming from you. You just seem set on telling me NOT to be mention God or the Bible in a civil context, OR EVEN HISTORICAL context because "it wont work" or it alienates people, or worse it's "theocracy". (Theocracy when i say it, but not if a guy in a video says it somehow. )

    Funny thing is those that don't share our religious or moral views don't have a problem alienating us.
    And telling us our views are wrong, hateful, outdated, and in some cases should even be outlawed to the point of the criminalizing even talking about them.
    whether or not they are wordsmithed in or out of a religious framework.
    The discussions of where our morality comes from and what can we do to make current civilization better and dump the dead wood clinging to it are two, separate discussions. In the latter case, only that people agree on what is good/bad, right/wrong is necessary to move forward. Getting stuck at the gate arguing over why people believe in that morality gets nowhere but stuck at the gate.

    The idea is move forward. We've already got a government that can't get anything done because of itself and quibbling over and keeping the people divided over contrived differences.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  6. Thanks Kathianne, fj1200 thanked this post
    Likes Kathianne liked this post
  7. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    48,322
    Thanks (Given)
    34738
    Thanks (Received)
    26780
    Likes (Given)
    2624
    Likes (Received)
    10236
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    12
    Mentioned
    377 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    link
    It's stated several times in the original thread.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  8. Likes fj1200 liked this post
  9. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,358
    Thanks (Given)
    4841
    Thanks (Received)
    4730
    Likes (Given)
    2726
    Likes (Received)
    1653
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14075398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    ....

    Pedos-Honestly, if one doesn't understand the wrong, they should likely be castrated or shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    ....
    -- look I agree 100%--
    but there have been those ... since the 1930s who've been trying to push that line in Europe and the US
    the lawywer Alan Dershowitz has even said he wanted to lower the age of consent.
    --In 1997, Dershowitz argued against statutory rape laws, saying the age of consent should be 15, Bruck reports. “There must be criminal sanctions against sex with very young children, but it is doubtful whether such sanctions should apply to teenagers above the age of puberty, since voluntary sex is so common in their age group,” he wrote in a Los Angeles Times op-ed.--
    And that's just the outer edge. You've seen some to the ped0 books they've been putting into schools, picture books no less, and are saying they'll defend them to the end. taking children to sex shows and inviting convicted ped0s into schools to read to children in the libraries.

    it's "freedom" Kath.
    So Beyond your feelings what's the logical argument to keep them out?
    Their feelings are just as passionate as yours. Why shouldn't every 1st grader understand any/every kind of sexual activity? "Experts say...."
    In fact your boomer feelings are simply 'hateful' and 'phobic' in their minds.



    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  10. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    12,908
    Thanks (Given)
    7830
    Thanks (Received)
    7759
    Likes (Given)
    834
    Likes (Received)
    2908
    Piss Off (Given)
    8
    Piss Off (Received)
    0
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    19919865

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Guy belongs in a straight jacket.

  11. Thanks Gunny thanked this post
    Likes revelarts liked this post
  12. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your head
    Posts
    24,190
    Thanks (Given)
    4363
    Thanks (Received)
    4759
    Likes (Given)
    1464
    Likes (Received)
    1186
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    39
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9173686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    link
    Back in the life, liberty, property, not legislating morality argument of yesteryear (as in last year).
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  13. Thanks Kathianne, Gunny thanked this post
  14. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Posts
    48,322
    Thanks (Given)
    34738
    Thanks (Received)
    26780
    Likes (Given)
    2624
    Likes (Received)
    10236
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    12
    Mentioned
    377 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    21475532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    Guy belongs in a straight jacket.
    You are being too kind. People like this should be shipped to Gaza immediately to fill in the need for reinforcements in Hamas' lines.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  15. Thanks Kathianne thanked this post
  16. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,358
    Thanks (Given)
    4841
    Thanks (Received)
    4730
    Likes (Given)
    2726
    Likes (Received)
    1653
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14075398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Back in the life, liberty, property, not legislating morality argument of yesteryear (as in last year).
    still don't see a link but ok,

    "life, liberty, property,"
    By whose definitions?

    Life?
    Slaves weren't "life".
    Embryos aren't "life".
    In Germany "imbeciles" weren't "life"....

    Liberty?
    liberty to teach preschoolers about sex?
    Liberty with all drugs?
    Liberty to marry brother, sisters & animals ? ...

    Property?
    Same issue about definitions.

    You seem to ASSUME most people agree on the definitions and morals of yesteryear... farther back than last year.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-06-2024 at 10:35 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  17. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your head
    Posts
    24,190
    Thanks (Given)
    4363
    Thanks (Received)
    4759
    Likes (Given)
    1464
    Likes (Received)
    1186
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    39
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9173686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    still don't see a link but ok,

    "life, liberty, property,"
    By whose definitions?

    Life?
    Slaves weren't "life".
    Embryos aren't "life".
    In Germany "imbeciles" weren't "life"....

    Liberty?
    liberty to teach preschoolers about sex?
    Liberty with all drugs?
    Liberty to marry brother, sisters & animals ? ...

    Property?
    Same issue about definitions.

    You seem to ASSUME most people agree on the definitions and morals of yesteryear... farther back than last year.
    We already had the discussion; you didn't like my answer. Just don't tell me I haven't answered. And to the bold... highlights the base problem; not even Christians will agree on all of those things let alone the non-Christians agreeing if the morality of the Bible is your premise.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  18. Thanks Kathianne thanked this post
  19. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,358
    Thanks (Given)
    4841
    Thanks (Received)
    4730
    Likes (Given)
    2726
    Likes (Received)
    1653
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14075398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    We already had the discussion; you didn't like my answer. Just don't tell me I haven't answered.
    OK Seriously,
    Is YOUR PERSONAL VERSION of Life, Liberty, Property ...from last year your answer?
    If so, no problem. Got it.
    Just know, it's not well defined. And has no foundation... outside of the post Christian culture it sprung from.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    And to the bold... highlights the base problem; not even Christians will agree on all of those things let alone the non-Christians agreeing if the morality of the Bible is your premise.
    Most Christians will come a lot closer to the same definitions than they would without Christianity.
    ...especially IF they're the types that actually follow though on their beliefs in all areas of life including politics.
    You know, like conservative follow though on promoting & defending ALL of the constitution they love -cough-

    & many Non-Christians already agree with many of the ideals and principals even if they don't necessarily want to live up to them themselves. they respect Jesus and the teachings of the Bible.
    Many People who Cheat on their spouse will still say it's wrong, and have a natural disgust for some sexual practices.
    Many Drinkers & Drug addict will agree that it's BETTER NOT to over drink/drug. and don't want their kids doing it.
    Many people kinda get the idea that if everyone followed the 10 commandments & the the golden rule FROM THE BIBLE the world would be better off not worse. (even though they don't like the idea of "religion".
    & As i posted elsewhere even many atheist now admit they'd RATHER live in a nation where the ideals of Human equality and freedoms promoted by the BIBLE/Christianity are codified in LAW rather than in Muslim or WOKE versions of secular gov't..


    The problem is that it some people hear that last part and think I'm talking about Making and FORCING NEW religious laws on people. and can't think strait to understand that What I'm really talking about Using the Websters dictionary of 1828 for definitions and generally going back the U.S. laws of 1970-1980 and of course the constitution (to clean up those laws even farther).

    https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/liberty
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-06-2024 at 05:03 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  20. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In your head
    Posts
    24,190
    Thanks (Given)
    4363
    Thanks (Received)
    4759
    Likes (Given)
    1464
    Likes (Received)
    1186
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    39
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9173686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    OK Seriously,
    Is YOUR PERSONAL VERSION of Life, Liberty, Property ...from last year your answer?
    If so, no problem. Got it.
    Just know, it's not well defined. And has no foundation... outside of the post Christian culture it sprung from.
    Except for a Constitutional foundation that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Most Christians will come a lot closer to the same definitions than they would without Christianity.
    ...especially IF they're the types that actually follow though on their beliefs in all areas of life including politics.
    You know, like conservative follow though on promoting & defending ALL of the constitution they love -cough-

    & many Non-Christians already agree with many of the ideals and principals even if they don't necessarily want to live up to them themselves. they respect Jesus and the teachings of the Bible.
    Many People who Cheat on their spouse will still say it's wrong, and have a natural disgust for some sexual practices.
    Many Drinkers & Drug addict will agree that it's BETTER NOT to over drink/drug. and don't want their kids doing it.
    Many people kinda get the idea that if everyone followed the 10 commandments & the the golden rule FROM THE BIBLE the world would be better off not worse. (even though they don't like the idea of "religion".
    & As i posted elsewhere even many atheist now admit they'd RATHER live in a nation where the ideals of Human equality and freedoms promoted by the BIBLE/Christianity are codified in LAW rather than in Muslim or WOKE versions of secular gov't..

    The problem is that it some people hear that last part and think I'm talking about Making and FORCING NEW religious laws on people. and can't think strait to understand that What I'm really talking about Using the Websters dictionary of 1828 for definitions and generally going back the U.S. laws of 1970-1980 and of course the constitution (to clean up those laws even farther).

    https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/liberty
    I'm going to parrot Gunny here, you're kind of all over the place. Do I want laws with a biblical foundation? Maybe. It it great that atheists would like ideals based on the Bible/Christianity? Yes. Do I wish we had a society with a higher set of morality? Yes. Do I want to live in a theocracy? No. Can you mandate morality via definitions from 1828 and laws from 1970? No.

    And FYI; your IF wasn't quite big enough up above. By orders of magnitude.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  21. Thanks Kathianne thanked this post
    Likes Kathianne liked this post
  22. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, U.S.A.
    Posts
    14,358
    Thanks (Given)
    4841
    Thanks (Received)
    4730
    Likes (Given)
    2726
    Likes (Received)
    1653
    Piss Off (Given)
    0
    Piss Off (Received)
    4
    Mentioned
    127 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14075398

    Default

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...tle-text-block

    The True Cost Of The Churchgoing Bust
    theatlantic.com
    " As an agnostic, I have spent most of my life thinking about the decline of faith in America in mostly positive terms. Organized religion seemed, to me, beset by scandal and entangled in noxious politics. So, I thought, what is there really to mourn? Only in the past few years have I come around to a different view. Maybe religion, for all of its faults, works a bit like a retaining wall to hold back the destabilizing pressure of American hyper-individualism, which threatens to swell and spill over in its absence...."

    (the rest is behind sign up page/paywall)
    Aaaand also commented on in the video below



    Last edited by revelarts; 06-01-2024 at 03:36 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  23. Thanks Kathianne thanked this post

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Debate Policy - Political Forums