theocracy? yes or no

[revelarts]

Dave Rubin of “The Rubin Report” talks to Frank Turek author of “I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist” about the collapse of the New Atheist movement; Richard Dawkins admitting that religion may be necessary for a flourishing society; the failure of atheism in providing a sense of purpose and meaning; what prominent atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris overlooked; how only religions like Christianity and Judaism can protect a society from the worst elements of radical Islam; the spreading of social justice and woke culture in America’s churches; the case for intelligent design as a part of the story of evolution; how morality always ends up being legislated; Jordan Peterson’s utilitarian view of religion; and much more.

[Gunny]

Dave Rubin of “The Rubin Report” talks to Frank Turek author of “I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist” about the collapse of the New Atheist movement; Richard Dawkins admitting that religion may be necessary for a flourishing society; the failure of atheism in providing a sense of purpose and meaning; what prominent atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris overlooked; how only religions like Christianity and Judaism can protect a society from the worst elements of radical Islam; the spreading of social justice and woke culture in America’s churches; the case for intelligent design as a part of the story of evolution; how morality always ends up being legislated; Jordan Peterson’s utilitarian view of religion; and much more.

What does this have to with theocracy? People having religion and government run by religion are not the same things.

[revelarts]

What does this have to with theocracy? People having religion and government run by religion are not the same things.

bingo.

[Gunny]

bingo.

I'm assuming somewhere between the video and the "bingo" there's a point?

[revelarts]

I'm assuming somewhere between the video and the "bingo" there's a point?

In another thread with similar topic.
You were accusing me of wanting theocracy.

Originally Posted by Gunny
"Not your objective? Then why pages of derailing this thread? Your objective which appears to be trying to convince yourself and everyone else your are right and yours is the way appears no better than those you cite as examples.

You want a theocracy based on YOUR religious beliefs. The Ayatollah has one of those. How's that worked for Iran?

When an idea is what's best for all and doesn't infringe on your right to believe what you want, being a naysayer just because you can does nothing positive for you nor anyone else."
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?78364-MASS-PSYCHOSIS-How-an-Entire-Population-Becomes-MENTALLY-ILL

the gentleman in the video is saying nearly exactly what I said in the other thread.
but here you clearly recognize the difference in theocracy and people living with an understanding of Christian principals creating THE BEST civil society & gov't.

Originally Posted by Gunny
"People having religion and government run by religion are not the same things."

Which I'm guessing that maybe you understood anyway,
Since you never answered my questions about specific religious policies I wanted the gov't to implement in this theocracy you accused me of wanting.


President John Adams summed it up this way
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

[Gunny]

In another thread with similar topic.
You were accusing me of wanting theocracy.

Originally Posted by Gunny
"Not your objective? Then why pages of derailing this thread? Your objective which appears to be trying to convince yourself and everyone else your are right and yours is the way appears no better than those you cite as examples.

You want a theocracy based on YOUR religious beliefs. The Ayatollah has one of those. How's that worked for Iran?

When an idea is what's best for all and doesn't infringe on your right to believe what you want, being a naysayer just because you can does nothing positive for you nor anyone else."
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?78364-MASS-PSYCHOSIS-How-an-Entire-Population-Becomes-MENTALLY-ILL

the gentleman in the video is saying nearly exactly what I said in the other thread.
but here you clearly recognize the difference in theocracy and people living with an understanding of Christian principals creating THE BEST civil society & gov't.

Originally Posted by Gunny
"People having religion and government run by religion are not the same things."

Which I'm guessing that maybe you understood anyway,
Since you never answered my questions about specific religious policies I wanted the gov't to implement in this theocracy you accused me of wanting.


President John Adams summed it up this way
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Cherry picking. I have ALWAYS understood the difference between theocracy and society that embraces and sets its standards based on religious morality. The latter will legislate according to personal and societal morality while the former uses a religion to legislate based on that religion. We no longer live in a society that will accept the latter.

At no point did you ask do I believe people are better off with God and/or do I believe society is better off with God. You have been too busy trying to cherry pick what I post to try and prove me wrong to discuss the issue objectively. The conversation began as nothing more than an exercise on how to create a better society within society, to the point that it ultimately replaces the weak and corrupt one. There's no being right or wrong.

I repeatedly made the distinction that one cannot use "God" as a selling point to the segment of society that has all the same morals and rules but refuses to accept where they come from, and can wordsmith a logical argument without God. Why alienate or throw out otherwise good, productive people because they choose to follow their own religion or not?

So you want a society with only those who recognize and will testify that Western societies' sense of right and wrong is Judeo-Christian? That is not only an exclusive society, but a monotheist one that recognizes the religion as law. That is by definition theocracy.

[revelarts]

Cherry picking. I have ALWAYS understood the difference between theocracy and society that embraces and sets its standards based on religious morality. The latter will legislate according to personal and societal morality while the former uses a religion to legislate based on that religion. We no longer live in a society that will accept the latter.

At no point did you ask do I believe people are better off with God and/or do I believe society is better off with God. You have been too busy trying to cherry pick what I post to try and prove me wrong to discuss the issue objectively. The conversation began as nothing more than an exercise on how to create a better society within society, to the point that it ultimately replaces the weak and corrupt one. There's no being right or wrong.

I repeatedly made the distinction that one cannot use "God" as a selling point to the segment of society that has all the same morals and rules but refuses to accept where they come from, and can wordsmith a logical argument without God. Why alienate or throw out otherwise good, productive people because they choose to follow their own religion or not?

So you want a society with only those who recognize and will testify that Western societies' sense of right and wrong is Judeo-Christian? That is not only an exclusive society, but a monotheist one that recognizes the religion as law. That is by definition theocracy.

"I repeatedly made the distinction that one cannot use "God" as a selling point to the segment of society that has all the same morals and rules but refuses to accept where they come from, and can wordsmith a logical argument without God. Why alienate or throw out otherwise good, productive people because they choose to follow their own religion or not? "

& I repeatedly made the distinction that you CAN NOT make/SELL most of the same morals without the God of the Bible.
I repeatedly asked you and FJ to do it but you never did.

What's the logical wordsmithed arguments against polygamy, homosexuality, and p0dos Gunny?
Why shouldn't someone steal or kill if it works for them, their family, neighborhood or city Gunny?

As you've pointed out, and we agree, not everyone has the same POV, religious or otherwise.

If you have (or can point to) the wordsmithed logical arguments to get society to align with what we both generally understand to be good morals for society, I'd be glad to embrace it with you.
But I'm not seeing that information coming from you. You just seem set on telling me NOT to be mention God or the Bible in a civil context, OR EVEN HISTORICAL context because "it wont work" or it alienates people, or worse it's "theocracy". (Theocracy when i say it, but not if a guy in a video says it somehow. )

Funny thing is those that don't share our religious or moral views don't have a problem alienating us.
And telling us our views are wrong, hateful, outdated, and in some cases should even be outlawed to the point of the criminalizing even talking about them.
whether or not they are wordsmithed in or out of a religious framework.

[fj1200]

... and FJ to do it but you never did.

I believe I did.

[Kathianne]

It seems to me that the main issue against polygamy is that one or more partners are often not voluntarily participating in such unions. There's a real bit of slavery underlying it.

As for homosexuality, the health risks, both more recent and ancient are well documented and known. Then there is the small problem of procreation-MEN cannot be women.

Pedos-Honestly, if one doesn't understand the wrong, they should likely be castrated or shot.

[revelarts]

I believe I did.

link

[revelarts]

It seems to me that the main issue against polygamy is that one or more partners are often not voluntarily participating in such unions. There's a real bit of slavery underlying it.

Let's assume that people generally will agree that slavery is wrong and stays illegal... (even though it's been legal & common most of human history... UNTIL Christianity revealed it's problems and it was outlawed nearly world wide.)

But there are many people who don't think of polygamy as slavery at all. It's just a choice. most people that would argue for it's acceptance would not be asking for slavery but "freedom".

As for homosexuality, the health risks, both more recent and ancient are well documented and known. Then there is the small problem of procreation-MEN cannot be women.

Health risk are real but that's what Obamacare is for right?
And Aren't people free to take their own health risk? People Smoke, Drink, do recreational drugs, Base jumping as a hobby, Pick wild mushrooms, All are health risk.
Why should anyone regulate what risk some should take sexually?
Will you regulate people who heterosexually sleep around too? There's similar health risk there as well. PLUS the burden of "unwanted" children.

Pedos-Honestly, if one doesn't understand the wrong, they should likely be castrated or shot.

-- look I agree 100%--
but there have been those ... since the 1930s who've been trying to push that line in Europe and the US
the lawywer Alan Dershowitz has even said he wanted to lower the age of consent.
--In 1997, Dershowitz argued against statutory rape laws, saying the age of consent should be 15, Bruck reports. “There must be criminal sanctions against sex with very young children, but it is doubtful whether such sanctions should apply to teenagers above the age of puberty, since voluntary sex is so common in their age group,” he wrote in a Los Angeles Times op-ed.--
And that's just the outer edge. You've seen some to the ped0 books they've been putting into schools, picture books no less, and are saying they'll defend them to the end. taking children to sex shows and inviting convicted ped0s into schools to read to children in the libraries.

it's "freedom" Kath.
So Beyond your feelings what's the logical argument to keep them out?
Their feelings are just as passionate as yours. Why shouldn't every 1st grader understand any/every kind of sexual activity? "Experts say...."
In fact your boomer feelings are simply 'hateful' and 'phobic' in their minds.

[Kathianne]

Let's assume that people generally will agree that slavery is wrong and stays illegal... (even though it's been legal & common most of human history... UNTIL Christianity revealed it's problems and it was outlawed nearly world wide.)

But there are many people who don't think of polygamy as slavery at all. It's just a choice. most people that would argue for it's acceptance would not be asking for slavery but "freedom".


Health risk are real but that's what Obamacare is for right?
And Aren't people free to take their own health risk? People Smoke, Drink, do recreational drugs, Base jumping as a hobby, Pick wild mushrooms, All are health risk.
Why should anyone regulate what risk some should take sexually?
Will you regulate people who heterosexually sleep around too? There's similar health risk there as well. PLUS the burden of "unwanted" children.


-- look I agree 100%--
but there have been those ... since the 1930s who've been trying to push that line in Europe and the US
the lawywer Alan Dershowitz has even said he wanted to lower the age of consent.
--In 1997, Dershowitz argued against statutory rape laws, saying the age of consent should be 15, Bruck reports. “There must be criminal sanctions against sex with very young children, but it is doubtful whether such sanctions should apply to teenagers above the age of puberty, since voluntary sex is so common in their age group,” he wrote in a Los Angeles Times op-ed.--
And that's just the outer edge. You've seen some to the ped0 books they've been putting into schools, picture books no less, and are saying they'll defend them to the end. taking children to sex shows and inviting convicted ped0s into schools to read to children in the libraries.

it's "freedom" Kath.
So Beyond your feelings what's the logical argument to keep them out?
Their feelings are just as passionate as yours. Why shouldn't every 1st grader understand any/every kind of sexual activity? "Experts say...."
In fact your boomer feelings are simply 'hateful' and 'phobic' in their minds.

All of your counterarguments are applicable to those who wish to use against religious pleas also. Those that care, care. Those that don't, don't. For those that don't, religion is unlikely in their lexicons.

[revelarts]

All of your counterarguments are applicable to those who wish to use against religious pleas also. Those that care, care. Those that don't, don't. For those that don't, religion is unlikely in their lexicons.

you are correct.
The thing is many people who are not religious still see the value in the religious POV.
and literally have no strong counter to any of the "modern" arguments.

And NO Hard BASIS for not allowing ANYTHING to move forward.

Believe it or not many atheist/secularist like professor Jordan Peterson and others see the REAL history of the values we share. That the values did IN FACT come from Christian/Biblical ideals that were codified into western law and promoted in the culture as norms.
AND that these norms promote the MOST freedom and agree CLOSER to REALITY than the BS that's being promoted today.


And here's the thing, Christianity, at it's best, will go along anyone to do good. They don't have to be Christians.
Many atheist and people who don't care about religion are NOT necessarily PUT OFF by Christians standing up against a lot of this mess simply because they do it while wearing a Bible verse t-Shirt or wearing a collar. Pro-Life Atheist work with Religious pro-lifers. and we use all the same arguments PLUS religious reasons.
But if we don't show up and say so against all this other crap, what are we doing as Christians?

I suspect Many people are wondering where we are? Rather than feeling "alienated" by our religious talk.
And i'm sure some are far more disgusted to see many Churches going along with the perversions and insanity, as they are looking around for someone standing against it with them.

But bottom line, at this point, should we care much what people think?
God is real and he'll deal with people wherever they are. It's my understanding that Christians are supposed to tell the truth, with kindness. & Not worry so much about whether we're sure it will "work". That's His job. Do we have faith for that much? do we know better? The people that God touches will get it completely and come to Him. And along the way some few will just get the benefit of dodging/escaping some the modern crap because "religious" people and their allies took a minute to tell "the experts" they are wrong & need to stop.

[Kathianne]

you are correct.
The thing is many people who are not religious still see the value in the religious POV.
and literally have no strong counter to any of the "modern" arguments.

And NO Hard BASIS for not allowing ANYTHING to move forward.

Believe it or not many atheist/secularist like professor Jordan Peterson and others see the REAL history of the values we share. That the values did IN FACT come from Christian/Biblical ideals that were codified into western law and promoted in the culture as norms.
AND that these norms promote the MOST freedom and agree CLOSER to REALITY than the BS that's being promoted today.


And here's the thing, Christianity, at it's best, will go along anyone to do good. They don't have to be Christians.
Many atheist and people who don't care about religion are NOT necessarily PUT OFF by Christians standing up against a lot of this mess simply because they do it while wearing a Bible verse t-Shirt or wearing a collar. Pro-Life Atheist work with Religious pro-lifers. and we use all the same arguments PLUS religious reasons.
But if we don't show up and say so against all this other crap, what are we doing as Christians?

I suspect Many people are wondering where we are? Rather than feeling "alienated" by our religious talk.
And i'm sure some are far more disgusted to see many Churches going along with the perversions and insanity, as they are looking around for someone standing against it with them.

But bottom line, at this point, should we care much what people think?
God is real and he'll deal with people wherever they are. It's my understanding that Christians are supposed to tell the truth, with kindness. & Not worry so much about whether we're sure it will "work". That's His job. Do we have faith for that much? do we know better? The people that God touches will get it completely and come to Him. And along the way some few will just get the benefit of dodging/escaping some the modern crap because "religious" people took a minute to tell "the experts" they are wrong & need to stop.

I've no doubt that you are a good person, a good Christian. You have your beliefs and walk the walk, I respect that.

My nature and the faith I grew up with, inspired to live my faith, so that others might follow. I insist on respect for my beliefs, as I give to others in return. One doesn't have to agree with all, to treat others-that aren't harming you-with respect.

Thus, while I choose faith, I also know and respect many who believe or rather do not believe differently. I have friends that are not religious, yet they certainly live within the parameters of what I consider Christian, including believing in 'life.' They want only the best for their children, grandchildren, and country.

[revelarts]

I've no doubt that you are a good person, a good Christian. You have your beliefs and walk the walk, I respect that.

My nature and the faith I grew up with, inspired to live my faith, so that others might follow. I insist on respect for my beliefs, as I give to others in return. One doesn't have to agree with all, to treat others-that aren't harming you-with respect.

Thus, while I choose faith, I also know and respect many who believe or rather do not believe differently. I have friends that are not religious, yet they certainly live within the parameters of what I consider Christian, including believing in 'life.' They want only the best for their children, grandchildren, and country.

agreed, plenty of non christians are disgusted by the modern crap.
as i said
---And here's the thing, Christianity, at it's best, will go along anyone to do good. They don't have to be Christians.
Many atheist and people who don't care about religion are NOT [I]necessarily PUT OFF by Christians standing up against a lot of this mess simply because they do it while wearing a Bible verse t-Shirt or wearing a collar. Pro-Life Atheist work with Religious pro-lifers. and we use all the same arguments PLUS religious reasons.
But if we don't show up and say so against all this other crap, what are we doing as Christians?---


I know non-christians who are open minded enough NOT to be put off by my beliefs, just as I'm not by theirs.
They are not so sensitive that they can't stand to work with someone whose "religious".
Not long ago some non-christian folks in city council actually started quietly requesting the churches to step up and help in the schools.
As long as we're not acting like -Westboro church-. I don't think we need to be as afraid of offending people as is being made out here.