Gay Groups tell Obama to cut ties with truth

[darin]

Senator Obama has planned to tour with a Gospel singer who says he was "delivered" from homosexuality by the grace of God. Now, Homosexual groups are calling for Obama to cut ties with the singer and pastor. Calling Donnie McClurkin a far-right Homophobe Pro-Gay groups say he is "a divisive preacher who is clearly singing a different tune than the stated message of the (Obama) campaign,"

More:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/254898.aspx

Here's the rub - Obama claims to be a Christian, yet "strongly disagrees" with Donnie McClurkin's comments regarding the TRUTH of homosexuality - it's not 'who you are', it's 'what you do', and his assertion people CAN and DO change their lifestyles. McClurkin states he was sexually abused by older males, which lead to his confusion of his sexuality. In his book, Eternal Victim, Eternal Victor, he writes: "The abnormal use of my sexuality continued until I came to realize that I was broken and that homosexuality was not God's intention... for my masculinity." He then describes himself as going through a process by which he became "a saved and sanctified man".

[Immanuel]

Interesting! What gives this group the right to tell Obama or anyone who to associate with?

Another question, if Obama doesn't capitulate, and I hope he doesn't, who are they going to support? Mitt Romney? j/k on the Romney comment.

Immie

[darin]

The kicker is - Obama's "Statement" saying he doesn't aggree with the Singer/Pastor. It's absolutely 100% in contrast to Christianity to support a group whose focus is to promote sinful behaviour. Yet, Obama is blatantly pandering to the group by is statement.

[Immanuel]

The kicker is - Obama's "Statement" saying he doesn't aggree with the Singer/Pastor. It's absolutely 100% in contrast to Christianity to support a group whose focus is to promote sinful behaviour. Yet, Obama is blatantly pandering to the group by is statement.

I have to disagree with you on this.

We are not supposed to retreat from the world. We are to share the Gospel of Christ with sinners. This requires interaction with those horrible sinners.

Saying that one believes that homosexuality is not a choice is not approval of the action.

I've been having trouble with the attitudes of some of the Christians on this site. Homosexuality is a sin as is adultery, lieing, stealing, racism, coveteousness, working on the Sabbath etc etc etc. Do we disassociate ourselves with anyone who works on Saturday (the actual sabbath day) or as we now worship on Sunday anyone who works on Sunday?

I am a sinner. By the attitude of Christians on this site, you should not associate with me either and my guess is that I should not associate with you also. But that is based on the old Covenant.

Christ's death has redeemed us from our sins. That death has also redeemed a homosexual from his sins. Of course, that only applies to those who have been chosen (predestined) by God too, but, then how do we know who the predestined are? Is it up to us to judge who has been or will be saved? I don't think so.

I think we, as the Body of Christ, should open our arms to any and all who are open to receiving Christ including members of the homosexual community. I do not believe that Christ would have shunned homosexuals. I do believe that Christ would have treated a homosexual in the same manner that he treated the rich young man that wanted to know how he could enter Heaven.

Just my humble opinion.

Immie

PS: I'm more than open to discussion on my points of view as I am not sure I am right on this since everyone else thinks we should condemn the sinner and leave them to suffer the horrors of hell. Maybe, I'm wrong?

[darin]

I have to disagree with you on this.

We are not supposed to retreat from the world. We are to share the Gospel of Christ with sinners. This requires interaction with those horrible sinners.

So...did you have a point to that; did you think I insinuated otherwise?

Saying that one believes that homosexuality is not a choice is not approval of the action.

ABSOLUTELY it is saying that. It's saying somebody should NOT be held-accountable or warned of their sinful behaviour because "they have no choice but to do that"

I've been having trouble with the attitudes of some of the Christians on this site. Homosexuality is a sin as is adultery, lying, stealing, racism, coveteousness,

When you see people proclaiming we should ACCEPT liars or thieves and SUPPORT their 'behavior' you'll have a valid point. ALL Christians on this site denounce sinful behavior.

working on the Sabbath etc etc etc.

That's not a sin.

Do we disassociate ourselves with anyone who works on Saturday (the actual sabbath day) or as we now worship on Sunday anyone who works on Sunday?

Where are you getting that from? That's an odd point of discussion to bring up where heretofore the discussion had NOTHING to do with 'not-associating' with "sinners".

I am a sinner. By the attitude of Christians on this site, you should not associate with me either and my guess is that I should not associate with you also. But that is based on the old Covenant.

Again - you're way off topic. And worse, you're out of bounds of Scripture, too. No Christian refrains from "associating" with unbelievers. Frankly, to do so would be close to telling Christ to Suck-it.

Christ's death has redeemed us from our sins. That death has also redeemed a homosexual from his sins. Of course, that only applies to those who have been chosen (predestined) by God too, but, then how do we know who the predestined are? Is it up to us to judge who has been or will be saved? I don't think so.

Uh. Nobody can remain in their sin and choose christ. It's one or the other. GOD hasn't "Chosen" who will be saved...He has, however, Chosen those he KNOWS will be saved. BIG difference.

I think we, as the Body of Christ, should open our arms to any and all who are open to receiving Christ including members of the homosexual community. I do not believe that Christ would have shunned homosexuals. I do believe that Christ would have treated a homosexual in the same manner that he treated the rich young man that wanted to know how he could enter Heaven.

Just my humble opinion.

Immie

Nobody is shunning ANYONE or anything but Sin. We should SHUN sinful lifestyles and encourage ANYONE who is caught up in such a lifestyle to seek Help.

[Immanuel]

So...did you have a point to that; did you think I insinuated otherwise?

Yes, it does appear that you have insinuated otherwise.

ABSOLUTELY it is saying that. It's saying somebody should NOT be held-accountable or warned of their sinful behaviour because "they have no choice but to do that"

See, here is my problem with this. You cannot point fingers at a person without judging them. The Law was given to show us that we needed a savior. God has provided his law in our hearts even to the point that he says in his word (I'm rushing this so if you don't mind I will paraphrase and skip the address. Let me know if you want a scriptural address) that he has placed his law on the hearts of all men including Gentiles ie unbelievers.

A homosexual can still find salvation through God! God redeems us from our sins, but that does not mean we stop sinning. If it does, I'm in deep sh*t. I feel sorrow for my sin and I do what I can to stop, but still I continue to sin. It is true that homosexuals do not believe that they are sinning and that point will be left up to God, I'm am sure when I appear before Christ and he says, "why did you continue to do this or that sin?" I will have to studder for an answer as to why I didn't think this or that was a sin. Will it not be the same way for the homosexual that sinned, believed in God, yet did not believe homosexualitywas a sin?

When you see people proclaiming we should ACCEPT liars or thieves and SUPPORT their 'behavior' you'll have a valid point. ALL Christians on this site denounce sinful behavior.

I see that you excluded my statement on not honoring the Sabbath. You say that it is not a sin. Where do you get that? In fact, it was the [strike]first[/strike] third commandment and to my knowledge has never been revoked just as do not have unnatural sexual relations has not been revoked.

Where are you getting that from? That's an odd point of discussion to bring up where heretofore the discussion had NOTHING to do with 'not-associating' with "sinners".

Then perhaps you can explain what you mean. Because, the way I see it, the attitude of Christians here is to condemn them to hell. Maybe, I'm wrong, but that is the appearance I get.

Again - you're way off topic. And worse, you're out of bounds of Scripture, too. No Christian refrains from "associating" with unbelievers. Frankly, to do so would be close to telling Christ to Suck-it.

I don't disagree which is why I brought the subject up with someone I knew would be willing to discuss it.

Uh. Nobody can remain in their sin and choose christ.

Well, first no one can choose Christ unless Christ has first chosen him. Yet, let me ask you this... you ARE by all outward appearance a Christian. I believe Christ has chosen me and that I AM saved by God's grace. I know I still commit sins. I suspect you still sin as well. Are we both wrong in our beliefs that God has chosen us because we both still sin?

Nobody is shunning ANYONE or anything but Sin. We should SHUN sinful lifestyles and encourage ANYONE who is caught up in such a lifestyle to seek Help.

And you do this by beating them over the head with a baseball bat? Is that how Christ would have handled things?

Immie

[glockmail]

The kicker is - Obama's "Statement" saying he doesn't aggree with the Singer/Pastor. It's absolutely 100% in contrast to Christianity to support a group whose focus is to promote sinful behaviour. Yet, Obama is blatantly pandering to the group by is statement.

Gee, a Democrat being intellectuall dishonest? Whouda thunk?

[darin]

Yes, it does appear that you have insinuated otherwise.

Could be your 'insinuation meter' is damaged or out of calibration

See, here is my problem with this. You cannot point fingers at a person without judging them. The Law was given to show us that we needed a savior. God has provided his law in our hearts even to the point that he says in his word (I'm rushing this so if you don't mind I will paraphrase and skip the address. Let me know if you want a scriptural address) that he has placed his law on the hearts of all men including Gentiles ie unbelievers.

Uh? kay. Right. I judge homosexuality as sinful. Right. I would not condone ANY sinful behaviour. Our Bible tells us to make such judgments.

A homosexual can still find salvation through God! God redeems us from our sins, but that does not mean we stop sinning. If it does, I'm in deep sh*t. I feel sorrow for my sin and I do what I can to stop, but still I continue to sin.

Absolutely not. When somebody accepts Christ, they are RE-BORN. They are indeed re-born with the damages of the sin in their life - but they must repent of their sin and make active steps to correct the sin in their hearts. Apart from that, they have not accepted Christ. Nobody who is with Christ can maintain a heart or nature or inclination or appeasement for, of, or to sin.

It is true that homosexuals do not believe that they are sinning and that point will be left up to God, I'm am sure when I appear before Christ and he says, "why did you continue to do this or that sin?" I will have to studder for an answer as to why I didn't think this or that was a sin. Will it not be the same way for the homosexual that sinned, believed in God, yet did not believe homosexuality was a sin?

Your answer won't matter. God is 100% truthful. Our sincerity (belief in something as sinful or not) is not going to make our falsehood a Truth.

I see that you excluded my statement on not honoring the Sabbath. You say that it is not a sin. Where do you get that? In fact, it was the [strike]first[/strike] third commandment and to my knowledge has never been revoked just as do not have unnatural sexual relations has not been revoked.

No - you're changing your words now. You first said it was sinful to 'work' on the Sabbath - now you're saying 'honoring'. The simple fact is, Christ has fulfilled the law. Where is a 'commandment' for sexual relations? That's a weird statement.

Then perhaps you can explain what you mean. Because, the way I see it, the attitude of Christians here is to condemn them to hell. Maybe, I'm wrong, but that is the appearance I get.

It's the attitude of GOD to condemn sinners to hell. That's HIS plan. That's the plan those who forsake Christ WILLINGLY accept. What I see you doing is ths: Somebody makes a statement showing their lack of support for a group asking for special rights. You take that statement to mean they HATE the group. That's the problem here...your reading-into stuff.

Well, first no one can choose Christ unless Christ has first chosen him. Yet, let me ask you this... you ARE by all outward appearance a Christian. I believe Christ has chosen me and that I AM saved by God's grace. I know I still commit sins. I suspect you still sin as well. Are we both wrong in our beliefs that God has chosen us because we both still sin?

Nobody can choose Christ except at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. God/Christ know full-well who will choose Him upon 'the final day'. Because of that, the Holy Spirit prompts those he knows will choose Him. Christ does not sit back with a dart-board and randomly pick those he'll "grant" salvation to.

re: Sin. I do NOT commit the same sin over-and-over again. Homosexuals by their lifestyle, do. As do habitual liars. As do those who hate. etc.

And you do this by beating them over the head with a baseball bat? Is that how Christ would have handled things?

Immie

Who is beating who over the head? Where did you get that idea?

[Immanuel]

Could be your 'insinuation meter' is damaged or out of calibration

Maybe, but if we don't discuss it, how can I learn?

Uh? kay. Right. I judge homosexuality as sinful. Right. I would not condone ANY sinful behaviour. Our Bible tells us to make such judgments.

I think it is Romans 3 that is the first passage that I point to when someone tells me to judge others. I think Romans 3 tells us not to judge others. Can you point me to the passage that you use for allowing us to judge people?

Absolutely not. When somebody accepts Christ, they are RE-BORN. They are indeed re-born with the damages of the sin in their life - but they must repent of their sin and make active steps to correct the sin in their hearts. Apart from that, they have not accepted Christ. Nobody who is with Christ can maintain a heart or nature or inclination or appeasement for, of, or to sin.

I believe salvation is by grace alone. The Lutheran definition of the Law is anything that we do for God in order to earn our salvation. Whereas Gospel is anything God does for us. When you say, "they must repent of their sins and make active steps to correct the sin in their hearts", that to me is Law not Gospel. We are not saved by the Law. We are condemned by it. We are not condemned by the Gospel. We are saved by it.

I read your "you must repent" as being a statement of Law.

I read a sermon by Charles Spurgeon that really gave me a different perspective on repentance. You might be interested in it.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

No - you're changing your words now. You first said it was sinful to 'work' on the Sabbath - now you're saying 'honoring'. The simple fact is, Christ has fulfilled the law. Where is a 'commandment' for sexual relations? That's a weird statement.

You are right. I did change my words. Because it was obvious you read something other than what I intended it to say.

Right, Christ fulfilled the Law for straights and gays alike is how I see that.

As for commandment for sexual relations, I was paraphrasing. Basically there are many commandments against homosexuality and other unnatural acts. Lev 18 is a good place to start.

It's the attitude of GOD to condemn sinners to hell. That's HIS plan. That's the plan those who forsake Christ WILLINGLY accept. What I see you doing is ths: Somebody makes a statement showing their lack of support for a group asking for special rights. You take that statement to mean they HATE the group. That's the problem here...your reading-into stuff.

Those who reject God will suffer the consequences of their sins. Are you 100% certain that all homosexuals reject God or do they simply reject the fact that homosexuality is a sin?

Nobody can choose Christ except at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. God/Christ know full-well who will choose Him upon 'the final day'. Because of that, the Holy Spirit prompts those he knows will choose Him. Christ does not sit back with a dart-board and randomly pick those he'll "grant" salvation to.

Are you 100% certain God has not chosen some homosexuals?

re: Sin. I do NOT commit the same sin over-and-over again. Homosexuals by their lifestyle, do. As do habitual liars. As do those who hate. etc.

Well, as to that, I can not answer, but I will tell you that I have sinned repeatedly and sometimes with the same sins regardless of my own effort not to do so.

Who is beating who over the head? Where did you get that idea?

The same place that lead me to point you to the "turn or burn" sermon. Attitude. You know, it is just how the whole thing sounds. It sounds as if you condemn the sinner without extending the forgiveness that comes from the cross of Christ. I'm saying that is how you come across.

I love the signature that Cheyenne has. Salvation is something received not accepted or something like that.

I have received my salvation. I have not earned it nor accepted it. If I have to "accept it" then that is my doing, not God's. Salvation has been granted me through the grace of God and I believe that God will grant that same grace to others including some from the homosexual community. Share Christ's forgiveness with them rather than beating them with the law.

Immie

[darin]

I think it is Romans 3 that is the first passage that I point to when someone tells me to judge others. I think Romans 3 tells us not to judge others. Can you point me to the passage that you use for allowing us to judge people?

What part of Romans 3 gives you that idea? Hrm...Christians are called to continuously monitor "the Church" and to remove from the church folk who refuse to repent. Romans 5 tells the reader to expel the wicked among them. Yes - the church is to make a JUDGMENT CALL and remove the sin from their congregation.

I believe salvation is by grace alone. The Lutheran definition of the Law is anything that we do for God in order to earn our salvation. Whereas Gospel is anything God does for us. When you say, "they must repent of their sins and make active steps to correct the sin in their hearts", that to me is Law not Gospel. We are not saved by the Law. We are condemned by it. We are not condemned by the Gospel. We are saved by it.

I see how you can say that - but you're wrong. No man can repent AND continue to sin, because if one continues in their sin, they have NOT repented. See? Repent MEANS to take active steps to correct the sin in their hearts. We cannot claim grace while remaining in our sin, because the grace removes our desire for the sinful behavior. Christ is NOT with the man who refuses to accept Grace's covering.

I read a sermon by Charles Spurgeon that really gave me a different perspective on repentance. You might be interested in it.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0106.htm

I'll check it out.

You are right. I did change my words. Because it was obvious you read something other than what I intended it to say.

No - I only responded to what you wrote. What did you mean?

Right, Christ fulfilled the Law for straights and gays alike is how I see that.

Assuming they repent and accept his sacrifice. Sure. IF Gays do that, they are no-longer "Gay" because they stop DOING gay. Gay is what one DOES...not how one FEELS.

As for commandment for sexual relations, I was paraphrasing. Basically there are many commandments against homosexuality and other unnatural acts. Lev 18 is a good place to start.

I thought you were speaking specifically of The TEN.

Those who reject God will suffer the consequences of their sins. Are you 100% certain that all homosexuals reject God or do they simply reject the fact that homosexuality is a sin?

Absolutely. ANYONE who rejects 'part' of God, rejects ALL of God.

Are you 100% certain God has not chosen some homosexuals?

Chosen for what? to be Sons of Him? IF God has chosen someone steeped in homosexuality, God will deliver them from their sin.

Well, as to that, I can not answer, but I will tell you that I have sinned repeatedly and sometimes with the same sins regardless of my own effort not to do so.

But where is your heart? Did you ask your church to make allowances for your sin because you found it difficult to stop? If a man approached you and said "I used to sin - same sin as you, but I've been delivered" would you say he's "hating" you or "afraid (phobic)" of you?

The same place that lead me to point you to the "turn or burn" sermon. Attitude. You know, it is just how the whole thing sounds. It sounds as if you condemn the sinner without extending the forgiveness that comes from the cross of Christ. I'm saying that is how you come across.

I can't extend ANYTHING. It's Christ who extends forgiveness - but only upon those who ask. As I said, it's impossible to remain willingly in our sinful ways and please god.

I have received my salvation. I have not earned it nor accepted it. If I have to "accept it" then that is my doing, not God's. Salvation has been granted me through the grace of God and I believe that God will grant that same grace to others including some from the homosexual community. Share Christ's forgiveness with them rather than beating them with the law.

Immie

You can't convince somebody to repent or stop sinning when you don't teach them or help them realize their sinful behavior.

[Immanuel]

What part of Romans 3 gives you that idea? Hrm...Christians are called to continuously monitor "the Church" and to remove from the church folk who refuse to repent. Romans 5 tells the reader to expel the wicked among them. Yes - the church is to make a JUDGMENT CALL and remove the sin from their congregation.

Can't look it up now. I'll have to get back to you.

I see how you can say that - but you're wrong. No man can repent AND continue to sin, because if one continues in their sin, they have NOT repented. See? Repent MEANS to take active steps to correct the sin in their hearts. We cannot claim grace while remaining in our sin, because the grace removes our desire for the sinful behavior. Christ is NOT with the man who refuses to accept Grace's covering.

Read Spurgeon's sermon on the issue of repentance and we can talk later. No one said anything about refusing to accept Grace's covering. A man can be saved by God and still sin. We are saints and sinners at the same time.

No - I only responded to what you wrote. What did you mean?

I meant we do not honor God on Sunday's when we work. By the Sabbath Law we are to set aside the Sabbath for worshipping God. That means the whole day, not just an hour or two for church. That means no Football!

Assuming they repent and accept his sacrifice. Sure. IF Gays do that, they are no-longer "Gay" because they stop DOING gay. Gay is what one DOES...not how one FEELS.

Well, if I could claim to be sin free since I "accepted" Christ I would agree with you. I can't and I don't.

I thought you were speaking specifically of The TEN.

My mistake for not being clear.

Absolutely. ANYONE who rejects 'part' of God, rejects ALL of God.

Again, if I were sinfree since acceptance of God, I would agree. Instead, I will fight my sin and pray God still accepts me.

Chosen for what? to be Sons of Him? IF God has chosen someone steeped in homosexuality, God will deliver them from their sin.

At what point? Immediately? I don't think so.

But where is your heart? Did you ask your church to make allowances for your sin because you found it difficult to stop? If a man approached you and said "I used to sin - same sin as you, but I've been delivered" would you say he's "hating" you or "afraid (phobic)" of you?

Depends on his attitude.

I can't extend ANYTHING. It's Christ who extends forgiveness - but only upon those who ask. As I said, it's impossible to remain willingly in our sinful ways and please god.

There again, you state that one must ask for forgiveness in order to receive it. Does the asking come first or the forgiveness?

You can't convince somebody to repent or stop sinning when you don't teach them or help them realize their sinful behavior.

But, first you must get them to listen to you.

Immie

[darin]

Read Spurgeon's sermon on the issue of repentance and we can talk later. No one said anything about refusing to accept Grace's covering. A man can be saved by God and still sin. We are saints and sinners at the same time.

Right - but a man CANNOT be un-repentive and be with the Spirit.

I meant we do not honor God on Sunday's when we work. By the Sabbath Law we are to set aside the Sabbath for worshipping God. That means the whole day, not just an hour or two for church.

Where do you get your definition of what it means to keep the sabbath 'holy'? What leads you to believe God cares about religious 'acts' such as refusing to work or play on the sabbath?

Well, if I could claim to be sin free since I "accepted" Christ I would agree with you. I can't and I don't.

Absolutely. I am sin-free. Until I sin. Then I repent and stop it.

Again, if I were sinfree since acceptance of God, I would agree. Instead, I will fight my sin and pray God still accepts me.

God knows your heart. I'd know your heart TOO if instead of trying to control your sinful addictions, you proclaim I should, and the church should, 'accept' your sinful behaviour.

At what point? Immediately? I don't think so.

Immediately, upon accepting Christ one's desire for sin stops.

Depends on his attitude.

That's a cop out.

There again, you state that one must ask for forgiveness in order to receive it. Does the asking come first or the forgiveness?

There you go again assuming EVERYONE is going to be JUST FINE because christ died for 'the entire world'. That's blatantly anti-biblical.

[Immanuel]

Right - but a man CANNOT be un-repentive and be with the Spirit.

Good point.

Where do you get your definition of what it means to keep the sabbath 'holy'? What leads you to believe God cares about religious 'acts' such as refusing to work or play on the sabbath?

How do you define keeping the Sabbath Holy?

My understanding comes from how I read the 10 commandments and what Christ said about the Sabbath in the Gospels.

Absolutely. I am sin-free. Until I sin. Then I repent and stop it.

The same could be said of a homosexual.

God knows your heart. I'd know your heart TOO if instead of trying to control your sinful addictions, you proclaim I should, and the church should, 'accept' your sinful behaviour.

Not sure what you mean here.

Immediately, upon accepting Christ one's desire for sin stops.

Desire not action.

That's a cop out.

Yes, it was. I am in a hurry and had nothing really to reply

There you go again assuming EVERYONE is going to be JUST FINE because christ died for 'the entire world'. That's blatantly anti-biblical.

I assumed no such thing. The point is do I ask Christ into my life before he saves me or afterwards? Is it my doing or God's doing?

Immie

[darin]

How do you define keeping the Sabbath Holy?

My understanding comes from how I read the 10 commandments and what Christ said about the Sabbath in the Gospels.

I don't define it. I think it's beyond the scope of Christ to participate in 'holiness day' - I think Christ was a GOOD example to us; it's not about 'one day a week' but about honoring God in ALL we do.

The same could be said of a homosexual.

No it couldn't. Homosexuals by their behavior are NOT repenting. Now, I'm talking of the kinds of folk who actively promote their actions as 'normal' and demand to be accepted. A true repentant homosexual would NEVER ask for his behavior to be tolerated by God.

Desire not action.

Thus, one can no-longer DESIRE to be participate in homosexuality. One changes their behavior - or, actually, one's behavior changes because one's heart is changed. Ta-da.

I assumed no such thing. The point is do I ask Christ into my life before he saves me or afterwards? Is it my doing or God's doing?

Immie

Your "salvation" (whatever that is) is up to you. Everything God had to do as been done. Now, he sits back and draws those he knows will be there with him. It's up to you to accept what he has to offer.

[musicman]

For whatever my opinion is worth, you have done excellent work throughout this thread, Darin. And, a couple of these gems are absolutely sig-worthy:

Nobody who is with Christ can maintain a heart or nature or inclination or appeasement for, of, or to sin.

No man can repent AND continue to sin, because if one continues in their sin, they have NOT repented.

Crystal clarity going on here. Good on ya'!