positive values of atheism....

[PostmodernProphet]

was listening to a television interview this morning and an atheist was calling for movies to be made which demonstrate the "positive values of atheism".....

this caused me to reflect on what these were....

after all, atheism basically centers around one issue....the non-existence of a deity....if an atheist has a positive value, it isn't a positive value that they have because they are an atheist....it would be a positive value they have in addition to being an atheist, right?......

[diuretic]

Not having a religion is a positive value of itself.

Stopwatch on...now....

[PostmodernProphet]

how many in the world would share that opinion?.....hardly a good demographic for creating a movie.....

[Hagbard Celine]

how many in the world would share that opinion?.....hardly a good demographic for creating a movie.....

Well, most religions teach their followers that atheists are somehow evil, sinful people to be looked down upon. Pagans too. With the propagation of that negative stereotype being so rampant, it's no wonder hardly any people would share the opinion that atheists can actually have "values."
The whole idea is ludicrous of course because it takes for granted that atheists keep their religious beliefs front and center the way Christians and others do and that "having religion" somehow automatically makes you a good person, neither of which is true. Most, if not all atheists put religion on the back-burner mostly because they see no use for religion. It just doesn't come into play in their lives and almost never comes up.
I'd be willing to wager that most, close to 95 percent, of all atheists are good, decent, moral people. But you wouldn't know it to sit in on an evangelical sermon.

[Hobbit]

Well, most religions teach their followers that atheists are somehow evil, sinful people to be looked down upon. Pagans too. With the propagation of that negative stereotype being so rampant, it's no wonder hardly any people would share the opinion that atheists can actually have "values."

Only the ones who go after Christians and call them stupid idiots for believing in their magical sky fairy, and believe me, they're out there. Just look at the comment threads on fark.com. Most atheists I've seen are just arrogant and self-centered, and I feel more pity for them than contempt.

The whole idea is ludicrous of course because it takes for granted that atheists keep their religious beliefs front and center the way Christians and others do and that "having religion" somehow automatically makes you a good person, neither of which is true. Most, if not all atheists put religion on the back-burner mostly because they see no use for religion. It just doesn't come into play in their lives and almost never comes up.

I'd wager to say that this is incorrect. Most atheists I've met make a habit of harassing religious people, mostly Christians, and taunting anybody who believes anything that can't currently be scientifically quantified. Science is their dogma, and considering leading scientists once believed the Earth was flat, that maggots spontaneously formed on meat, and that alchemy really worked, I think I'll pass on science being the ultimate truth.

Most people I've seen who don't believe in God and don't shove that fact in everyone's faces is agnostic.

I'd be willing to wager that most, close to 95 percent, of all atheists are good, decent, moral people. But you wouldn't know it to sit in on an evangelical sermon.

Yet, it's not because they're atheists. It's because they were raised in a society with positive moral values based on religion. Without the idea of a higher being watching them, do you really think primitive man would have ever gone beyond doing whatever they thought they could get away with? As far as evangelicals bashing atheists and calling them horrible people, I'd wager that you've never been to an evangelical sermon. Every time I've heard atheists mentioned, they're talked about in tones of pity, as lost souls who have used science to fill the void left by lack of God. The pastor preaches that they should be loved, befriended, and reached out to, not cast out as some kind of heathens.

I'd also like to know what good atheism ever did for us, and I don't want to hear some intangible like reason or some fallacy like 'scientific advancement,' because there is no link between atheism and scientific advancement (Christian Europe was the most technologically advanced region of the world for centuries, until the largely Christian America surpassed them). I want to hear something scientifically quantifiable that atheism has brought to us.

I'll even open up by telling you a few things Christianity brought us.
1. Christian scientists during the Middle Ages made advancements, despite many setbacks and even accusations of witchcraft, because they wanted to learn more about God's creation and get closer to Him.
2. The majority of the laws this nation was founded on are based in Judeo-Christian tradition.
3. Christian charities, such as the Salvation Army, ease the suffering of millions every day.
4. Christian missionaries volunteer to build homes and hospitals and teach English and advanced technical skills in some of the most destitute parts of the world.
5. Much of the knowledge we have today of the Roman Empire survived because Christian monks believed that the preservation of knowledge was important.

[hjmick]

I am a self professed Agnostic, bordering on Atheism. I rarely if ever attack people of faith and respect their beliefs. I think the reason for this is, I was raised a Catholic. I went to Sunday school, mass, confession, I took communion as well. All of this occurred in my youth, during my formative years you might say. The values taught to me during this time have stayed with me, while I no longer believe or worship, I understand the need and respect the rights of others to do so. All I ever ask is that you not proselytize or preach to me or my children, if you come into my home I ask that you leave your religion on the doorstep. I will respectfully do the same when visiting your abode and family. I will not try to convince you that I am right and you are wrong as long as you pay me the same respect. I am raising my children with the same values instilled in me in my youth, and, when asked about religion, I answer their questions as best I can, if I don't have an answer, I find it or point them in the right direction so that they can find it for themselves. I have explained to my children that, in my opinion, religion is an issue best decided on by the informed individual, if they choose to worship on their own, I will not try to convince them otherwise. Most people of faith, IMO, believe what they believe because that is what their parents believed. If my children find religion, I want it to be because they sought it out after asking questions and finding the answers they seek. An informed decision is all I ask they make.

[Hagbard Celine]

I'll even open up by telling you a few things Christianity brought us.
1. Christian scientists during the Middle Ages made advancements, despite many setbacks and even accusations of witchcraft, because they wanted to learn more about God's creation and get closer to Him.
2. The majority of the laws this nation was founded on are based in Judeo-Christian tradition.
3. Christian charities, such as the Salvation Army, ease the suffering of millions every day.
4. Christian missionaries volunteer to build homes and hospitals and teach English and advanced technical skills in some of the most destitute parts of the world.
5. Much of the knowledge we have today of the Roman Empire survived because Christian monks believed that the preservation of knowledge was important.

For starters, the majority of laws in this nation are based on English Common law/local tradition and before that the prevailing law of the west was Roman Law, which was originally pagan. Since our laws are ridiculously more advanced and wide-reaching than were the "laws" of Judeo-Christian tradition, I'd also like to remind you that the ten commandments seem to be based on Hammurabi's code, which was the law of Babylon, which was also a pagan civilization. I think it's preposterous to credit Christianity as the reason humans believe murder is wrong or that it's wrong to sleep with your neighbor's wife. These types of things are obviously wrong to anybody. For instance, it's against the law to murder people in China, but when has Christianity ever made a significant impact on that society? Answer: never. People have it within themselves to judge what is right and wrong. Religion is nothing more than a form of government created to maintain control over populations that was originally instituted by cavemen who wanted nothing more than someway to control their inhospitable and uncontrollable environment. They sought to appease angry spirits in the Earth to keep their crops and animal stock healthy. It's not an insidious, illuminati conspiracy, it just is what it is.
Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I go to church or profess my allegiance to any particular sect? No. I know the difference between right and wrong. I'm also a product of my environment, which has an already established code of what's right and wrong. But I think even without this established code, humans have within them a moral compass and that is what our laws are based on.
Non-religious charities teach English, build homes, wells, feed people too. Christianity doesn't have a monopoloy on good-will.
I agree that some info about Rome survived through Christian monks, but the majority of information we have about Rome has come through modern archaeology. The Christian version of Rome is one of villianous barbary. The Romans are always made to be the enemy or the villian. In reality, the Romans gave us almost everything good that there is in modern civilization. Art, philosophy, roads, plumbing, stadiums, architecture, the basis for medical science, the basis for modern warfare, Christianity, the list goes on and on.

[Hobbit]

I'm not saying non-Christians have ever done anything. I'm just asking what atheism, specifically, has done that's positive and quantifiable.

Also, English common law was a mesh and wasn't based on Roman law (but was influenced by it). Roman law had cruel executions for just about everything under the sun and little room for forgiveness.

Also, our laws aren't based on English law so much as they were originally a rejection of English law. Our Bill of Rights was written because NONE of those things were part of English law, but were instead what our founding fathers believed to be in-born GOD given rights.

I also seriously doubt the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Ten Commandments, even if you don't believe the Ten Commandments were handed down by God. Hammurabi was in Babylon, which had no contact with the Hebrews until after the Ten Commandments.

[Hagbard Celine]

I'm not saying non-Christians have ever done anything. I'm just asking what atheism, specifically, has done that's positive and quantifiable.

Also, English common law was a mesh and wasn't based on Roman law (but was influenced by it). Roman law had cruel executions for just about everything under the sun and little room for forgiveness.

Also, our laws aren't based on English law so much as they were originally a rejection of English law. Our Bill of Rights was written because NONE of those things were part of English law, but were instead what our founding fathers believed to be in-born GOD given rights.

I also seriously doubt the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Ten Commandments, even if you don't believe the Ten Commandments were handed down by God. Hammurabi was in Babylon, which had no contact with the Hebrews until after the Ten Commandments.

Atheism, by definition can't "do" anything. Atheism is the state of not believing in a deity. What has not believing in the Easter bunny ever done for the world? It's the same question. The better question would be "what have non-believers ever done for the world?" The answer is tons.
Reading cures ignorance: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9108636/common-law
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20030911.html

[glockmail]

I'm not saying non-Christians have ever done anything. I'm just asking what atheism, specifically, has done that's positive and quantifiable.

Also, English common law was a mesh and wasn't based on Roman law (but was influenced by it). Roman law had cruel executions for just about everything under the sun and little room for forgiveness.

Also, our laws aren't based on English law so much as they were originally a rejection of English law. Our Bill of Rights was written because NONE of those things were part of English law, but were instead what our founding fathers believed to be in-born GOD given rights.

I also seriously doubt the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Ten Commandments, even if you don't believe the Ten Commandments were handed down by God. Hammurabi was in Babylon, which had no contact with the Hebrews until after the Ten Commandments.

Well said, and put Hag in his place with his no-brainer argument.

[Hagbard Celine]

Well said, and put Hag in his place with his no-brainer argument.

What are you talking about? Nothing Hobbit wrote is historically accurate nor proves that Atheism is either a negative or a positive force in society. I've never been "put in my place" by any of you troglodytes--that's wishful-thinking to the extreme and pure denial on your part.

This entire thread is a misnomer. Atheism has no canon, therefore it can have no quantifiable set of "values."

[PostmodernProphet]

Well, most religions teach their followers that atheists are somehow evil, sinful people to be looked down upon.

yes, what is your point?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I will not try to convince you that I am right

you stated you were an agnostic....by definition, it means you do not have an opinion.....therefore, why would you try to convince me of anything?......

[Hagbard Celine]

yes, what is your point?.....

[hjmick]

you stated you were an agnostic....by definition, it means you do not have an opinion.....therefore, why would you try to convince me of anything?......

Not true, the definition of agnosticism: The view that God's existence is unprovable: the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists.

agnostic: somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists.

Sounds like an opinion to me.