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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classact View Post
    In my definition the words Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion means that Congress will not form a religion as an act of law, will not cho(o)se a flavor of the varieties of religion available and make it part of the government and Congress will simply not apply religion as a mandate.

    If the above were not true how could the position of Chaplain of the Senate and the House of Representatives be an elected office voted on by all members of the House and Senate? If they elect a Christian Chaplain are they not establishing Christianity under your definition of establishment?
    There it is. You posted it yourself. The founders wanted to keep religion out of government, i.e. they wanted to keep the government secular. They'd seen firsthand the evils of theocratic rule and religious suppression in England and elsewhere.
    Nobody denies that most if not all of the founders believed in God. Seeing as how Darwin hadn't even been born yet, it's no surprise either that most if not all of them believed humans had been created by God too. But no one can deny that they created a secular government. It's written right there in the first amendment. The first sentence no less!
    Having a chaplain in Congress to be there to address the religious needs of the elected members is in no way "establishing a religion." Give me a break. People are free to exercise their religion under the first amendment. Do I really have to explain stupid crap like this? Read a fourth-grade social studies book before coming on here and posting this childish crap. Geez. :/
    Last edited by Hagbard Celine; 11-26-2007 at 12:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer
    Science wants to explain things and understand why they happen. Creationists want to use science to justify their own causes.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hagbard Celine View Post
    There it is. You posted it yourself. The founders wanted to keep religion out of government, i.e. they wanted to keep the government secular. They'd seen firsthand the evils of theocratic rule and religious suppression in England and elsewhere.
    Nobody denies that most if not all of the founders believed in God. Seeing as how Darwin hadn't even been born yet, it's no surprise either that most if not all of them believed humans had been created by God too. But no one can deny that they created a secular government. It's written right there in the first amendment. The first sentence no less!
    No, they created a neutral government, not a secular government. The adoption of Common Law is a given that all laws are to be based on "the majority's morals and values" which are religious. Is America a Christian Nation? Yes! Are the laws Secular? No!
    "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
    ---Thomas Jefferson (or as Al Sharpton calls him: Grandpappy)

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockmail View Post
    The Founders had the option to omit "The Year of our Lord" and chose not to. This shows heir intent.

    the Founders used the term "Blessings", but could have used several other terms, or none at all. Again, points to intent.
    I gotta side with Loki on this one. "In the Year of Our Lord" is simply the English translation of the Latin "Anno Domine" (I hope I spelled that right) or "A.D." Until recently, when Atheistic scientists and historians changed the abbreviations to B.C.E. and A.C.E. (before common era and after common era, respectively. I, personally, think it's petty and stupid to use these initials to remove Jesus from the equation while still using his year of birth as a reference, but that's a whole other debate), even scientists and historians of non-Christian religions used 'A.D.' and 'B.C.,' (before Christ) since it was the most widespread calender, and it, in no way, represented an endorsement of Christianity.

    The founders forbade a state religion because they thought, right or wrong, it should be everybody's choice. At the outset of the nation, pretty much everybody was Christian, but there were non-Christians in society. Church attendance was never compulsory. Nobody was converted at gunpoint (at least, never by the government). If the founders had wanted this to be an unquestioningly, officially Christian nation, I think they would have specified it.
    "Lighght"
    - This 'poem' was bought and paid for with $2,250 of YOUR money.

    Name one thing the government does better than the private sector and I'll show you something that requires the use of force to accomplish.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classact View Post
    No, they created a neutral government, not a secular government. The adoption of Common Law is a given that all laws are to be based on "the majority's morals and values" which are religious. Is America a Christian Nation? Yes! Are the laws Secular? No!
    Look bud. The laws are not based on scripture. End of story.
    Last edited by Hagbard Celine; 11-26-2007 at 01:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer
    Science wants to explain things and understand why they happen. Creationists want to use science to justify their own causes.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    I gotta side with Loki on this one. "In the Year of Our Lord" is simply the English translation of the Latin "Anno Domine" (I hope I spelled that right) or "A.D." Until recently, when Atheistic scientists and historians changed the abbreviations to B.C.E. and A.C.E. (before common era and after common era, respectively. I, personally, think it's petty and stupid to use these initials to remove Jesus from the equation while still using his year of birth as a reference, but that's a whole other debate), even scientists and historians of non-Christian religions used 'A.D.' and 'B.C.,' (before Christ) since it was the most widespread calender, and it, in no way, represented an endorsement of Christianity.

    The founders forbade a state religion because they thought, right or wrong, it should be everybody's choice. At the outset of the nation, pretty much everybody was Christian, but there were non-Christians in society. Church attendance was never compulsory. Nobody was converted at gunpoint (at least, never by the government). If the founders had wanted this to be an unquestioningly, officially Christian nation, I think they would have specified it.
    Wow Hobbit. Wow. Thank you. I tried to rep you here but I've still got some spreadin' to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer
    Science wants to explain things and understand why they happen. Creationists want to use science to justify their own causes.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOki View Post
    Not so fast. They felt it is self evident that men are created--period. No mention of your God.
    God is God. That's all there is to it. That must be what you fail to realize.

    What is purely evident is the fact that most of the people that made up this nation in it's inception were Judeo Christian, period, end of story. Was our Constitution and Declaration of Independence written just like the Christian Bible? No. Was there a definite Christian influence? You bet. Now what part about that is so hard to swallow? The part about, you atheists and agnostics don't want to admit it? More than likely. As with everything else Christian, you people won't be happy until ALL signs of our religion are wiped out, and history rewritten in your heathen way.
    Last edited by Pale Rider; 11-26-2007 at 01:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hagbard Celine View Post
    Look bud. The laws are not theology-based because they aren't based on scripture. End of story.
    Really, end of story... the debate is the Constitution based on Secular or Religious values. Until around forty years ago only white nations that supported Christianity could immigrate to the US in any numbers. Minority races and religious origins other than Christian were not welcome in numbers. Regardless the laws are based on Judeo-Christian values, it is up to the people of how much influence religion has on law. Some areas have Blue Laws, these laws are clearly designed to encourage attendance at church. They discourage any religious immoral activity after midnight Saturday... bars are closed, no beer or alcohol sales after midnight, are these secular laws?
    "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
    ---Thomas Jefferson (or as Al Sharpton calls him: Grandpappy)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    God is God. That's all there is to it. That must be what you fail to realize.
    I'm perfectly clear on that particular point. What you fail to realize is that your hope and wish that the United States Constitution should be an affirmation of your God and your religion will not come true, because it is not true, and never was true.
    "... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classact View Post
    Really, end of story... the debate is the Constitution based on Secular or Religious values. Until around forty years ago only white nations that supported Christianity could immigrate to the US in any numbers. Minority races and religious origins other than Christian were not welcome in numbers. Regardless the laws are based on Judeo-Christian values, it is up to the people of how much influence religion has on law. Some areas have Blue Laws, these laws are clearly designed to encourage attendance at church. They discourage any religious immoral activity after midnight Saturday... bars are closed, no beer or alcohol sales after midnight, are these secular laws?
    These laws are unconstitutional imo. I've fallen victim to them many times trying to buy a six pack on Sunday--then got turned away because some fat prick in the State Congress thinks I should adopt his idea of the "Sabbath."
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer
    Science wants to explain things and understand why they happen. Creationists want to use science to justify their own causes.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOki View Post
    I'm perfectly clear on that particular point. What you fail to realize is that your hope and wish that the United States Constitution should be an affirmation of your God and your religion will not come true, because it is not true, and never was true.
    That's not what I'm claiming it is. However, the fact that there is a definite Christian influence written into the Constitution is a fact you're just going to have to live with, because the vast majority of people that made up this country in it's inception were Judeo Christian. Your war on Christianity and wanting to rewrite American history in your heathen way wiping out all signs of Christianity just aren't going to happen. Not in this life time. This country was primarily made up of Christians. The influence of which is reflected in everything we are. Get over it. You're not going to lie it away.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    That's not what I'm claiming it is. However, the fact that there is a definite Christian influence written into the Constitution is a fact you're just going to have to live with, because the vast majority of people that made up this country in it's inception were Judeo Christian. Your war on Christianity and wanting to rewrite American history in your heathen way wiping out all signs of Christianity just aren't going to happen. Not in this life time. This country was primarily made up of Christians. The influence of which is reflected in everything we are. Get over it. You're not going to lie it away.
    So now it's just that the Constitution contains influences of Christianity? Trying to meet half way? You're right that the writers of the Constitution were influenced by their Judeo-Christian backgrounds, but the same would be true if they had been Muslim or Jewish. Even if they had been, and the Declaration of Independence read "the Laws of Nature and of Allah (or Yahweh) entitle them," the wording of the first amendment would still read the same. And the US government would still be secular.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer
    Science wants to explain things and understand why they happen. Creationists want to use science to justify their own causes.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    That's not what I'm claiming it is.
    Your posting appears to demand otherwise. I apologize if I misunderstand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    However, the fact that there is a definite Christian influence written into the Constitution is a fact you're just going to have to live with, because the vast majority of people that made up this country in it's inception were Judeo Christian.
    I'm not, and never have, argued that most of the folk in this country have (and do) consider themselves some flavor of Christian. Step away from that argument. Illustrate an example of this Christian influence you go on about. One that is clearly Christian so that I can't chalk it up to just being rational. Ok? We'll have something to discuss then; until then, you're just making this Christian influence business up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    Your war on Christianity and wanting to rewrite American history in your heathen way wiping out all signs of Christianity just aren't going to happen. Not in this life time.
    First, you're just making up this bullshit about my war on Christianity; and secondly, I'm not the one trying to rewrite Jesus into the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    This country was primarily made up of Christians.
    That's what they all claim, but they can't all be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    The influence of which is reflected in everything we are.
    Influenced by real Christians? The really real ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post
    Get over it. You're not going to lie it away.
    On what authority do you claim to hold the monopoly on the Truth?
    "... whenever any number of men, calling themselves a government, do anything to another man, or to his property, which they had no right to do as individuals, they thereby declare themselves trespassers, robbers, or murderers, according to the nature of their acts." - Lysander Spooner

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hagbard Celine View Post
    These laws are unconstitutional imo. I've fallen victim to them many times trying to buy a six pack on Sunday--then got turned away because some fat prick in the State Congress thinks I should adopt his idea of the "Sabbath."
    Why would they be unconstitutional? The federal Constitution only dealt with the Federal Government. The amendments gave power to the states and to the people. The idea was that the Federal Government would not have too much power. It is the policy of the US Government to not establish a religion, however the power was not taken from the states to establish a religion according to the Tenth Amendment.

    So, if you find Blue Laws a problem then you would have really had a problem if you lived in Massachusetts following the ratification of the Federal Constitution because MA was a Theocracy, they did establish a church in the state government and collected taxes for that church. Persons not belonging to the state church could have their church taxes sent to their church but you had a church tax.
    "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
    ---Thomas Jefferson (or as Al Sharpton calls him: Grandpappy)

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOki View Post
    Yes. The intent to use English rather than Latin.

    The intent to use plain English? I agree.
    As you have resorted to deflection, it is apparent that you have lost this debate.

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    If the Founders had been secular-progressives than they would simply omitted the term entirely. After all no one would have confused the actual date of the document with the era before Christ. Instead they used the term “in the Year of our Lord”, either because they wished to use it, because it was proper or they were used to using it, which simply proves that Christianity was the very basis of their society. The fact that atheist scientists and historians wish to change the term to CE is further evidence that people don’t use these terms without significance.

    As the title of this thread is: “US Constitution based on Secular or Judeo-Christian values”, not “the founders had wanted this to be an unquestioningly, officially Christian nation”, you appear to be arguing a related point.

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