US Constitution based on Secular or Judeo-Christian values

[diuretic]

Sadly enough, if the founding fathers were alive today to say that the constitution was based on Christian values it wouldn't matter. It's the Judges that decide what was meant by laws. Not the legislators. Legislators just write the laws. The judicial system tells the legislation what is meant by those laws (). Makes me want to pay more attention to how I vote for judges. I don't know about you.

And the Founders would be pleased that the Doctrine of the Separation of Powers was still in place, albeit just hanging on under the Bush Administration.

[diuretic]

Ok, I think the problem is that you're using 'religion' and 'The Catholic Church' interchangeably. Religion caused the Enlightenment. The Catholic Church tried to stop it.

I don't think religion caused the Enlightenment. Truth is I don't know what caused the Enlightenment. I should read up on it I know.

How did the Catholic Church try to stop the Enlightenment? I'm asking because I don't know. I know that by the time of the Enlightenment that in England at least the Church of England was the co-power (along with the Monarchy).

[Hobbit]

I don't think religion caused the Enlightenment. Truth is I don't know what caused the Enlightenment. I should read up on it I know.

How did the Catholic Church try to stop the Enlightenment? I'm asking because I don't know. I know that by the time of the Enlightenment that in England at least the Church of England was the co-power (along with the Monarchy).

Well, a bunch of good Catholics decided that instead of accepting what was placed before them, they would use the reason God gave them to explore the universe and either prove or disprove it. Well, some of the things they discovered didn't fit with what the Catholic Church taught at the time. For example, Galileo discovered that the Earth moved around the Sun, not vice versa. Since these things contradicted what the Catholic Church had said (even though it contradicted no scripture), those who said them were often accused of heresy and excommunicated or executed.

[Roadhouse158]

And the Founders would be pleased that the Doctrine of the Separation of Powers was still in place, albeit just hanging on under the Bush Administration.

You don't know what the founding fathers would have wanted. Remember that seperation of church and state wasn't in the constitution. It was in a letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist to soothe their fears that they would be made to worship as the government wanted. Freedom of religion is what was meant in that letter. Not freedom from religion.

[diuretic]

Well, a bunch of good Catholics decided that instead of accepting what was placed before them, they would use the reason God gave them to explore the universe and either prove or disprove it. Well, some of the things they discovered didn't fit with what the Catholic Church taught at the time. For example, Galileo discovered that the Earth moved around the Sun, not vice versa. Since these things contradicted what the Catholic Church had said (even though it contradicted no scripture), those who said them were often accused of heresy and excommunicated or executed.

I'm all over the place with this. Copernicus had his proof of heliocentricity and I think the Church was okay with it. I'm wondering how Galileo got himself in strife with the Church. But he did, I know. Just shows how things shift around from Pope to Pope I suppose.

It's well for us that some brave people favoured reason over dogma.

[diuretic]

You don't know what the founding fathers would have wanted. Remember that seperation of church and state wasn't in the constitution. It was in a letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist to soothe their fears that they would be made to worship as the government wanted. Freedom of religion is what was meant in that letter. Not freedom from religion.

On the separation of powers, Montesqieu was heeded by the Founders and he wrote on the need for separation (although the idea had been around for a long time before him).

As for freedom from religion/freedom of religion. I suppose if the Founders had wanted a state religion they would have made sure it appeared in the Constutition.

[Psychoblues]

What a GREAT conversation albeit like another poster said, "beating a dead horse".

This is a nation that as a nation respects no religion over and above any other. Period. Even our Supreme Court has ruled on this issue time and again and always with the same result. We are not a nation that insists on or respects any particular religion over any other.

[avatar4321]

the entire idea if secularism is based on Judeo-Christian values.

[Psychoblues]

You are a liar, a'21.

the entire idea if secularism is based on Judeo-Christian values.

First off, what is a Judeo/Christian value? Secondly, what caused so many to desire to escape the Church of England and thirdly, why do you suppose the founders to be so suspicious of religious aspirations they included a separation of church and state in their most intimate declarations?

[Hobbit]

You are a liar, a'21.

To prove that you must first prove:
a) The statement was false.
b) Avatar knew the statement was false.
c) That he stated it with intent to decieve

I doubt you can.

First off, what is a Judeo/Christian value?

One commonly expressed by the Bible, which takes more than half its books from Judaism.

Secondly, what caused so many to desire to escape the Church of England

The fact that it was corrupt, served the King rather than God, and that nobody was allowed to disagree with it.

and thirdly, why do you suppose the founders to be so suspicious of religious aspirations they included a separation of church and state in their most intimate declarations?

You mean the letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a church preacher assuring him that the government wouldn't interfere with church business? That separation of church and state? Sounds more like they didn't trust government.

[Psychoblues]

You cannot answer questions that I have asked of another, hibbitt.

To prove that you must first prove:
a) The statement was false.
b) Avatar knew the statement was false.
c) That he stated it with intent to decieve

I doubt you can.



One commonly expressed by the Bible, which takes more than half its books from Judaism.



The fact that it was corrupt, served the King rather than God, and that nobody was allowed to disagree with it.



You mean the letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a church preacher assuring him that the government wouldn't interfere with church business? That separation of church and state? Sounds more like they didn't trust government.

But, considering that you desire to do so I suggest that you answer the questions that I asked and I will repeat them for you:

1. What is a Judeo/Christian value?
2. What caused so many to desire to escape the Church of England?
3. Why do you suppose the founders to be so suspicious of religious aspirations they included a separation of church and state in their most intimate declarations?

Are you truly attempting to debate or are you just demonstrating your ability to talk shit as you are commonly known for?

[Hobbit]

You cannot answer questions that I have asked of another, hibbitt.




But, considering that you desire to do so I suggest that you answer the questions that I asked and I will repeat them for you:

1. What is a Judeo/Christian value?
2. What caused so many to desire to escape the Church of England?
3. Why do you suppose the founders to be so suspicious of religious aspirations they included a separation of church and state in their most intimate declarations?

Are you truly attempting to debate or are you just demonstrating your ability to talk shit as you are commonly known for?

I just answered those questions, both thoroughly and accurately. That you choose to ignore the answers is your problem.

[Psychoblues]

As the self proclaimed faux scholar that you pretend to be, I ask simply that you define your rather abstract answers to anything.

I just answered those questions, both thoroughly and accurately. That you choose to ignore the answers is your problem.

In the meantime I'll repeat the questions.

1. What is a Judeo/Christian value?

2. What caused so many to desire to escape the Church of England?

3. Why do you suppose the founders to be so suspicious of religious aspirations they included a separation of church and state in their most intimate declarations?

Is your denseness voluntary or somehow genetical?

[Roadhouse158]

To hear some posters you would think the founding fathers were anti religion. You do know that when he was president, Thomas Jefferson held church services in the House of Representativers every Sunday right? Not anti christianity. Anti-OFFICIAL religion..

[Hobbit]

As the self proclaimed faux scholar that you pretend to be, I ask simply that you define your rather abstract answers to anything.




In the meantime I'll repeat the questions.

1. What is a Judeo/Christian value?

2. What caused so many to desire to escape the Church of England?

3. Why do you suppose the founders to be so suspicious of religious aspirations they included a separation of church and state in their most intimate declarations?

Is your denseness voluntary or somehow genetical?

Ok, I'll answer them again.

1. A value commonly expressed by the Bible, which takes more than half its books from Judaism.

2. The fact that it was corrupt, served the King rather than God, and that nobody was allowed to disagree with it.

3. You mean the letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a church preacher assuring him that the government wouldn't interfere with church business? That separation of church and state? Sounds more like they didn't trust government.