Coldest winter in 15 years, Environment Canada says

[gabosaurus]

The Mandolin Wind
Doesn't change a thing

[glockmail]

I thought about that. I'm probably doing a reductio on this but it seems to me that (let's take mining as an example) that we (using Aus for the moment) dig up our minerals, let's say iron ore. That of itself is nothing, it's work which at that point isn't productive. The iron ore is transported to China or India, still just work. The iron ore is smelted into steel. Still work but at least that's value-adding, the commodity has changed from basically metallic dirt to something that can be used, say building an office in which people can work, or building a block of houses which people can live in. So yes, definitely there's value created.

Carbon trading can lead to a good as well, if it's cumulative effect is to slow, halt or reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere (I'm being simplistic I know but sophisticated science discussion is beyond me) then that helps humanity as much as a new office block or a row of houses. At least that's my thinking on it.

I've thought about this as well; certain industries add wealth to society by creating material goods, and if that is worth more to a capitalist society than say, a currency trader. I’ve come to the conclusion that as a true capitalist this issue is not something that I should be concerned with.

But these carbon credits are different, in that it is the environmentalists who set the relative value of these “commodities”, and therefore use this power to advance their agenda, which when analyzed, is not as stated. For instance, an electric utility can make power from burning coal, operating 1000 windmills, or one nuclear plant. The envoros want the coal plant emissions reduced, will grant credits for the windmills but not for the nuke. It is clear, however, that the nuke is every bit as effective as reducing carbon emissions as the 1000 windmills.

Hence my assertion that these carbon credits are bullshit.

[Said1]

I'm thinking those with credits to sell wouldn't reduce industrial outputs or sell credits if that would result in loss of economic growth and vise versa re countries looking to purchase credits. I think most countries are willing to sacrefice the environment if it means economic growth.

[avatar4321]

stupid global warming.

its cold here too.

[glockmail]

stupid global warming.

its cold here too.

Its going to be a great ski weekend.

[diuretic]

I've thought about this as well; certain industries add wealth to society by creating material goods, and if that is worth more to a capitalist society than say, a currency trader. I’ve come to the conclusion that as a true capitalist this issue is not something that I should be concerned with.

What about professional sportspeople, what do they add to society? Can't you perceive of the enjoyment that they give to their fans as being a good? It's still a commercial activity, people pay to enter the stadium to watch the game, television companies bid to pay to show the game and they get revenue from businesses which want to advertise on their channel.

But these carbon credits are different, in that it is the environmentalists who set the relative value of these “commodities”, and therefore use this power to advance their agenda, which when analyzed, is not as stated. For instance, an electric utility can make power from burning coal, operating 1000 windmills, or one nuclear plant. The envoros want the coal plant emissions reduced, will grant credits for the windmills but not for the nuke. It is clear, however, that the nuke is every bit as effective as reducing carbon emissions as the 1000 windmills.

Hence my assertion that these carbon credits are bullshit.

I don't know if environmentalists will be setting the retail value, from what I know about it, which, granted, isn't a lot. Anyway, nothing has intrinsic value, the iron ore I referred to is just funny coloured dirt, you can't eat it so how comes it has value? It has value because lots of people want it and will pay for it, the price they're prepared to pay for that funny coloured dirt is worked out by market forces, which I understand is going to be the way that carbon credits will be valued.

[diuretic]

I'm thinking those with credits to sell wouldn't reduce industrial outputs or sell credits if that would result in loss of economic growth and vise versa re countries looking to purchase credits. I think most countries are willing to sacrefice the environment if it means economic growth.

If that's so then that simply shows how stupid we are. A country willing to sacrifice its environment for economic growth is ruled by fools and populated by willing dupes. Perhaps Marx was right, perhaps capitalism does have the seeds of its own destruction within it, because ignoring the effect of industrialism on the environment is blind greed. If that's carried through to its logical conclusion then there'll be no economies, there'll be nothing. And folks call me a nihilist!

[avatar4321]

If that's so then that simply shows how stupid we are. A country willing to sacrifice its environment for economic growth is ruled by fools and populated by willing dupes. Perhaps Marx was right, perhaps capitalism does have the seeds of its own destruction within it, because ignoring the effect of industrialism on the environment is blind greed. If that's carried through to its logical conclusion then there'll be no economies, there'll be nothing. And folks call me a nihilist!

Global warming will never effect us regardless of whether legislation is passed restricting economics or not because global warming is a total scam.

So may as well let people earn a living and survive. Any country foolish enough to place the life of plants and animals over human beings, particularly little children, is ruled by fools and populated by willing dupes.

Plants and animal can grow back quickly. Human lives are irreplacible.

[stephanie]

What I'm absolutely shocked about...

Is how many people are buying into this scam..

The trading cap system is EXTORTION...Plain and simple...
It's taking from one country to give to another...And those other countries don't have to do anything to abide by the same rules that us who are being extorted have to when it comes to their environmental so called impact on the Earth...

And then someone was quoting Marx...like is that how they REALLY WANT TO LIVE...Because that's exactly where your headed......This is another step for a counties GOVERMENT TO DICTATE HOW YOU HAVE TO LIVE....is that FREEDOM??
Us humans are continually getting a bad rap...The more we create that helps and saves lives it seems, we are now being berated for doing all that
Maybe we should just have a mass suicide so we don't hurt the Earth any longer...
Of course this suggestion would make all the Radical Environmentalist happy, I'm sure..But it wouldn't make the GOVERMENTS happy because they wouldn't have all those little peons to collect all that money from and have less people who the can control..

I'm all for finding better solutions for saving energy, doing conservation and all that...But not at the determent at us being able to make a living, or being taxed out of our money for the sake of these Environmentalist...


Amazing..

[Sitarro]

Damn winter weather........

[stephanie]

Damn winter weather........

Hey..we're enjoying global warming up here...It's 1 above zero...
Usually this time of yr...we seeing 30 to 40 BELOW ZERO...

Not much snow for snowmaching though...

[diuretic]

Global warming will never effect us regardless of whether legislation is passed restricting economics or not because global warming is a total scam.

So may as well let people earn a living and survive. Any country foolish enough to place the life of plants and animals over human beings, particularly little children, is ruled by fools and populated by willing dupes.

Plants and animal can grow back quickly. Human lives are irreplacible.

The point about global warming is that if unchecked it will kill all life on Earth. That means little children as well as pussycats and doggies and daffodils.

You're pulling my leg with your post. Jeez you had me thinking you were serious for a moment

[diuretic]

What I'm absolutely shocked about...

Is how many people are buying into this scam..

The trading cap system is EXTORTION...Plain and simple...
It's taking from one country to give to another...And those other countries don't have to do anything to abide by the same rules that us who are being extorted have to when it comes to their environmental so called impact on the Earth...

And then someone was quoting Marx...like is that how they REALLY WANT TO LIVE...Because that's exactly where your headed......This is another step for a counties GOVERMENT TO DICTATE HOW YOU HAVE TO LIVE....is that FREEDOM??
Us humans are continually getting a bad rap...The more we create that helps and saves lives it seems, we are now being berated for doing all that
Maybe we should just have a mass suicide so we don't hurt the Earth any longer...
Of course this suggestion would make all the Radical Environmentalist happy, I'm sure..But it wouldn't make the GOVERMENTS happy because they wouldn't have all those little peons to collect all that money from and have less people who the can control..

I'm all for finding better solutions for saving energy, doing conservation and all that...But not at the determent at us being able to make a living, or being taxed out of our money for the sake of these Environmentalist...


Amazing..

I tell you what, ignore it because it won't be us that dies from it, it will be several generations hence so why should we give a shit right? We might get a bit of discomfort in the next few years, temps may be a bit high, people in Finland might get sunstroke now and again but what the hell, we'll all be dead anyway and who gives two frigging hoots about our descendants? Just as long we we don't sucked in by all those scientists warning us about climate change. Nope, we're too damn clever to get sucked in by all those eggheads and their cleverdick science. Let's listen to big business instead. Let's allow China to keep pumping shit into their rivers and seas and into their air, because the water from their rivers and seas and the air from their landmass won't affect us will it?

[Said1]

If that's so then that simply shows how stupid we are. A country willing to sacrifice its environment for economic growth is ruled by fools and populated by willing dupes. Perhaps Marx was right, perhaps capitalism does have the seeds of its own destruction within it, because ignoring the effect of industrialism on the environment is blind greed. If that's carried through to its logical conclusion then there'll be no economies, there'll be nothing. And folks call me a nihilist!

Look around. Ireland for example, went over quota and were supposedly fined. Their outputs were over agreed limits due to :"unexpected" industrial growth. Go figure!

[diuretic]

Look around. Ireland for example, went over quota and were supposedly fined. Their outputs were over agreed limits due to :"unexpected" industrial growth. Go figure!

What works best, carrot or stick?

Anyway Ireland can go over quota, they make Guinness

Seriously though, fair point but at least it's being managed and it's better than the head up the arse attitude of all of us doing our own thing without regard to others. I have to tell you that clean and green Australia is the highest (I think) producer on a per capita basis of CO2, no, it's not our sheep, so we need to get the finger out big time.