Will/Did you encourage your kids to join the military?

[Kathianne]

and politicians have always interfered in war, usually badly:

Civil War and before:

http://home.carolina.rr.com/civilwarcauses/


Wilson and WWI:

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0601g.asp


The Industrial-Military Complex WWII:

http://www.amazon.com/Arsenal-World-.../dp/0700613080

it goes on and on...

[NATO AIR]

Do you honestly think either of the service you listed are immune to the effects you listed? If you do you are an idiot. Both of those branches are fully immersed in the war in Iraq and the CG is the prime agent of the war on terror in the ports in the us. Those young men and are in as much danger as the rest of us. Join or don't join, that is the choice. The danger may be greater in the Army or the USMC, but the danger is still there.

AF

Our missions are different. We do have IA's and the FMF corpsmen, as well as the naval pilots and crew members. The average sailor though faces far less at this moment in time, though stupidity over China or Iran could easily see quite a few ships attacked and sunk.

Our enemies are less the politicians and grubby admirals and more the dirtbag contractors who do crap repairs that put us at risk in a varying degree of situations. At least they punish those fucks though, because guys like me could come after the fact and tell you what happened and why and show the evidence in a court of law if necessary.

[NATO AIR]

and politicians have always interfered in war, usually badly:

Civil War and before:

http://home.carolina.rr.com/civilwarcauses/


Wilson and WWI:

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0601g.asp


The Industrial-Military Complex WWII:

http://www.amazon.com/Arsenal-World-.../dp/0700613080

it goes on and on...

Indeed. Especially now in our wars of choice and misbegotten strategies, I would not want my kid to die because of some politician's stupidity, arrogance or greed.

[pegwinn]

Grasshopper. I am glad to see that you are making an effort to regain your Kung Fu. Please read on....

I would agree with you that I did not have the mental toughness to be in the military. My complaint goes beyond a drill sgt yelling at me, to put it in list form because I am notorious for run on sentences The first step to reconciling failure is to admit to yourself that you, not society or the Army or even your family, are the one that failed. From there you can begin to figure out why and take steps, if needed, to correct the problem. By admitting that you lacked the mental toughness, you have taken a worthy first step.

1. There was no quality control, had I not disenrolled myself and pushed to get out I would be a 1lt or cpt by now, (I was even encouraged to stay in a non military way by the major, I have alot of respect for that major because she did not attempt encouragement through intimidation which was of course outlined in my letter as one of the reasons I wanted to quit in the first place). I should have been ELSed in basic and in fact I even asked for it and was denyed. Many recruits believe that they cannot make it, when in reality they can. You have to understand that the services balance the minimum standards against the quality of the applicant. They also know that many recruits have never been in a situation where quitting was not an option. Asking to quit in your recruit or entry level training is often simply someone who can succeed, but doesn't know it yet. As to quality control, I can only speak for Marines. But, I am certain that if pushed there would be documentation of your successes and evaluations to demonstrate that you were not perfect. But, good enough really does mean, Good Enough.

2. Since I had endured a moderate boarder line severe injury I got to experence what the CTMC and PTRP were like first hand and after reading articles there are many who had it bad enough that congress should have been involved. My daughter is a Marine as well. During her time at SOI (School of Infantry) she twisted her ankle and knee on a night movement at Camp Geiger. She was dropped, and sent to the MRP. MRP is Medical Rehabilitation Platoon. On a daily basis her training day was physical therapy to rebuild her strength. She also endured the usual chickenshit (her words) of formations, inspections, duty or a-duty etc. What she, and many others in the PVT/PFC realm don't understand is that by doing those things, she never forgot that she was a Marine. What she saw was "I am supposed to be getting better and these idiots are worried about me passing a fucking JOB". Also, there are two chains of command at MRP. The primary COC is the troop handlers, Company Level, etc. The second is medical. The bottom line is that the medical folks decided she was fit. So, once she passed a PFT she went back to an SOI class to complete her training. I am going out on a limb here, but I bet the Army PTRP is run pretty close to this with one difference. My daughter was a Marine, not a recruit as SOI comes after boot camp. These soldiers, were not really Soldiers. Since they had not graduated from recruit training, a semblence of the recruit training structure has to be maintained to at least salvage a bit of the training received. I understand that sucks. But unlike you and the blogger, I understand why it has to be that way.

http://onlyvolunteers.blogspot.com/2...nks-abuse.html

Intereting Blog. But, I have to wonder, why is it written by a Mom who is obviously not Army Literate? She cannot do anything but emphasize with her adopted Soldiers without a BS filter. She is seeing things thru thier eyes. There is a remedy built in as well. From one of the comments on the same page as the above link:

While, yes in every organization, there is a bad apple. You have no right to blame the Chain of Command. Any and all incidents should have been reported promptly. I am sure it would have been taken care of in an appropriate and just manner.

http://www.counterpunch.org/jw04052006.html

This was one of the most deplorable things I have ever seen, the things done to people that should have been discharged equate to torture. Also the VA hospital incident. The fact that I experenced these things to a much milder degree tells me these are not one offs or flukes these are just the times the military sort of got caught. The military does not care about its own members well being, if you are lucky enough you will have a unit that will care about each other but the military as a whole could care less.

I read the entire second link. The physical abuse should have been nipped in the bud and the Drill Sergeant punished. The First Sergeant (according to the author) should have been punished. The issue is that the troops in question had not completed the basic training to the degree to know how to properly report these things. The woman writing the blog is screaming at the top of her lungs in the wrong directions as well. IF she really wants to help, then she needs to educate herself on the system in place. Simply building a website that gets lots of hits won't do it. Your comments about the military not caring are simply ignorant since you personally didn't get high enough in the food chain to be charged with leadership of Soldiers.

3. National gaurd should never be used for forign deployments, hence the word NATIONAL regardless of whatever beauricratic regulation you want to post, it is a blatent misuse of state resources for federal gain not to mention an undue strain on the members becasue they have civilian jobs, and often times full time military pay is way less than there civilian pay (in my case much much much less, full time military pay would not come close to covering my bills). I'm guessing that you, a college graduate, did no personal research on the mission of the Army Guard before you volunteerd? Also, had you successfully integrated into the Guard and gained the experience you would have received follow on training to address the financial issues you mention. But, since you didn't, Let me try to help you out. This is getting to be a long post. So, go, here, and let that be your starting point. Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act of 1940 as amended in 1991

If you want to post ignorant/flaming or otherwise uninteresting posts I will ignore you, I have run out of patience for thoes who dont get it and tout the same BS I heard over and over when I was in, its like a broken record. Grasshopper, you get what you give. When you post like an idiot you will get flames. When you post intelligently you will get discussion. This post is the first one I have seen out of you that appears to have been written by someone who didn't flunk out of "Are you smarter than a fifth grader?".

BTW black lance thank for posting something in an intellegent manner.

BTW. I will easily admit that a full ten percent of the US Military doesn't deserve to be there. They are the ones who made it under the radar and thru the cracks. Often they will slink and worm thier way into areas where they will not be closely monitored and then do great harm.

Personally when I encountered them, like a snake, they were outed and worse. But, to paint the entire US Army with that brush is no more fair than you thought they were to you.

[Black Lance]

I would agree with you that I did not have the mental toughness to be in the military. My complaint goes beyond a drill sgt yelling at me, to put it in list form because I am notorious for run on sentences

1. There was no quality control, had I not disenrolled myself and pushed to get out I would be a 1lt or cpt by now, (I was even encouraged to stay in a non military way by the major, I have alot of respect for that major because she did not attempt encouragement through intimidation which was of course outlined in my letter as one of the reasons I wanted to quit in the first place). I should have been ELSed in basic and in fact I even asked for it and was denyed.

Your overall performance was probably rated "satisfactory", even if your attitude sucked. Lots of new recruits initially have a hard time adapting to military life, which (along with the current manpower shortage) is probably why the army wasn't in a hurry to wash you out. They were giving you time to adapt. As for your wanting to quit, you probably knew when you chose to enlisted that you couldn't just quit the military anytime you felt like it.

2. Since I had endured a moderate boarder line severe injury I got to experence what the CTMC and PTRP were like first hand and after reading articles there are many who had it bad enough that congress should have been involved

http://onlyvolunteers.blogspot.com/2...nks-abuse.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/jw04052006.html

This was one of the most deplorable things I have ever seen, the things done to people that should have been discharged equate to torture. Also the VA hospital incident. The fact that I experenced these things to a much milder degree tells me these are not one offs or flukes these are just the times the military sort of got caught. The military does not care about its own members well being, if you are lucky enough you will have a unit that will care about each other but the military as a whole could care less.

I can't comment on the medical situation, as I have never been hospitalized while in service. As for the military "torturing" people who should have been given a medical discharge, I can only comment on the AF, but I haven't observed this to be the case. I know several airmen who went to great lengths to avoid being removed from the service due to injuries sustained during BMT. They are now tech school students, and holders of the much envied PT waiver.

I have to agree with your overall assesment of the militaries attitude towards its personnel. On the whole, they don't care about your welfare, especially if you are an enlisted member. The military exists to accomplish its mission, and as a sailor/marine/soldier/airmen, you are used as a tool to achieve that end. But, again rppearso, perspective: most civilian employers also don't care about their employees, and simply use them as tools to make the company money. The only reason this attitude is more noticeable in the military than it is among civilian employers is because the military makes more demands on its workers, and because military duty hours are often longer than civilian work hours.

3. National gaurd should never be used for forign deployments, hence the word NATIONAL regardless of whatever beauricratic regulation you want to post, it is a blatent misuse of state resources for federal gain not to mention an undue strain on the members becasue they have civilian jobs, and often times full time military pay is way less than there civilian pay (in my case much much much less, full time military pay would not come close to covering my bills).

If you want to post ignorant/flaming or otherwise uninteresting posts I will ignore you, I have run out of patience for thoes who dont get it and tout the same BS I heard over and over when I was in, its like a broken record.

BTW black lance thank for posting something in an intellegent manner.

The Guard has a Federal mission as well as a State mission. Given the manpower shortage the army is facing right now you should have known that before the end of your enlistment you would be deployed.

[gabosaurus]

The best way to avoid dying in a war is to get rid of the politicians who begin them.
Bush and Cheney, et all, started the Iraq war to satisfy their own selfish purposes. They are more than willing to see people die as a result of them.
When our country gets more responsible leadership, perhaps then the services will become a more viable option for young people.

[pegwinn]

The best way to avoid dying in a war is to get rid of the politicians who begin them.
Bush and Cheney, et all, started the Iraq war to satisfy their own selfish purposes. They are more than willing to see people die as a result of them.
When our country gets more responsible leadership, perhaps then the services will become a more viable option for young people.

A noble sentiment. But the truth is that there has never been a political combination in the USA that did not deploy the military into harms way.

Your beef with Bush is noted and even understood. But, it is misguided.

[manu1959]

The best way to avoid dying in a war is to get rid of the politicians who begin them.
Bush and Cheney, et all, started the Iraq war to satisfy their own selfish purposes. They are more than willing to see people die as a result of them.
When our country gets more responsible leadership, perhaps then the services will become a more viable option for young people.

couple of questions for you you....

what is the purpose of the military....

name a president that has not sent our boys to war....

[Mr. P]

The best way to avoid dying in a war is to get rid of the politicians who begin them.
Bush and Cheney, et all, started the Iraq war to satisfy their own selfish purposes. They are more than willing to see people die as a result of them.
When our country gets more responsible leadership, perhaps then the services will become a more viable option for young people.

The Bush bashing is transparent and mindless gab.

[gabosaurus]

Who was the last president to invade a foreign country without provocation? Then remain there without reason?
Bush is a loose cannon. His idiocy has cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

[Sitarro]

Who was the last president to invade a foreign country without provocation? Then remain there without reason?
Bush is a loose cannon. His idiocy has cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

What is your definition of provocation, how many politicians didn't agree that Saddam was a threat to the U.S. and it's allies? The United States didn't invade Iraq, they fought against Saddam and his military to liberate the Iraqi people ...... at least that is what my Orthopaedic surgeon said to me last week, he is Iraqi who fled Iraq to get away from Saddam's regime.

[Abbey Marie]

What is your definition of provocation, how many politicians didn't agree that Saddam was a threat to the U.S. and it's allies? The United States didn't invade Iraq, they fought against Saddam and his military to liberate the Iraqi people ...... at least that is what my Orthopaedic surgeon said to me last week, he is Iraqi who fled Iraq to get away from Saddam's regime.

In addition to the major international intelligence agenices...

[gabosaurus]

Nice spin try. Where is the attack? Or even threat of such? Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia instead? They are the ones that financed 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers.
Bush is an international terrorist. That is his legacy to history.

[Mr. P]

Who was the last president to invade a foreign country without provocation? Then remain there without reason?
Bush is a loose cannon. His idiocy has cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

Lincoln.....and them DAMN yanks ain't left yet!

[rppearso]

Grasshopper. I am glad to see that you are making an effort to regain your Kung Fu. Please read on....



BTW. I will easily admit that a full ten percent of the US Military doesn't deserve to be there. They are the ones who made it under the radar and thru the cracks. Often they will slink and worm thier way into areas where they will not be closely monitored and then do great harm.

Personally when I encountered them, like a snake, they were outed and worse. But, to paint the entire US Army with that brush is no more fair than you thought they were to you.

Maybe they should disolve the national guard and reserves and just have everything be active duty there is no reason to have a seperate entity if they are all going to eventaully serve the same purpose anyways.

Did you ever think that maybe thoes 10% you speak of were thoes that made a bad decision to join and were not able to get out like I did and are just trying to make it through there enlistment contract alive. Just because people "volunteer" does not mean they want to stay, what seemed like a good idea at the time may not be anymore. Why would you want to ruin someones life with an OTH discharge or what ever the "much worse" refers to just because they are not GI Joe super trooper and they are just muddling there way through a bad choise in life, if you think there muddling is holding you up then why be melevolant and give them extra hardships instead of just cutting them loose with an honorable so they can get on with the rest of there life (because anything less than an honorable can potentially have negitive conotations when you are trying for a security clearance later on.