The Palestineans got a raw deal.

[fj1200]

As have the Jewish for centuries. Raw deals happen.

Correct. No sense in studying history I guess. S* happens!

[SassyLady]

Correct. No sense in studying history I guess. S* happens!

Study history. Have an opinion. Native Americans got a raw deal as well.

I'm Irish ... my ancestors were killed by Cromwell and one immigrated to America. We lost our castles, land, titles ... but we survived as indentured servants in America.

Shit happens.

[fj1200]

^ I feel we all solved a pressing problem of the day by diving deep into the issues that may continue to plague the world. Good job everyone.

[Gunny]

^ I feel we all solved a pressing problem of the day by diving deep into the issues that may continue to plague the world. Good job everyone.

The UN did not exist when Israel was recreated. Palestine was a state within the Nation of Transjordan, part of the Ottoman Empire. Palestine as an actual nation never actually existed. Palestinians are Arabs - semites - like all the rest.

The Balfour Agreement in 1924 reestablished the Jewish state. Not out of altruism mind you; rather, out of antisemitism and how far away from us can we get them.

Transjordan was a British mandate following WWI and the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire. Technically speaking, by the standard of the day rather than revisionism of acts then by standards pretended to be held now, it was Britain's to do with however it saw fit. The Ottomans were on the losing end.

Israel/Judea in fact existed until the Romans erased it from history because they kept rebelling.

I would say Palestine got a damned good deal since Israel occupied all of what is now called Palestine and the PLO had its ass kicked all the way into Syria and Lebanon. They had the right to expect nothing and Israel had every right to give them nothing; which, is what they would have gotten from me.

I see the whole Israel-Palestine conflict as contrived by nobodies making a living from war because they'd otherwise have to get real jobs, based on the usual hatred of difference.

[fj1200]

The UN did not exist when Israel was recreated. Palestine was a state within the Nation of Transjordan, part of the Ottoman Empire. Palestine as an actual nation never actually existed. Palestinians are Arabs - semites - like all the rest.

The Balfour Agreement in 1924 reestablished the Jewish state. Not out of altruism mind you; rather, out of antisemitism and how far away from us can we get them.

Transjordan was a British mandate following WWI and the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire. Technically speaking, by the standard of the day rather than revisionism of acts then by standards pretended to be held now, it was Britain's to do with however it saw fit. The Ottomans were on the losing end.

Israel/Judea in fact existed until the Romans erased it from history because they kept rebelling.

I would say Palestine got a damned good deal since Israel occupied all of what is now called Palestine and the PLO had its ass kicked all the way into Syria and Lebanon. They had the right to expect nothing and Israel had every right to give them nothing; which, is what they would have gotten from me.

I see the whole Israel-Palestine conflict as contrived by nobodies making a living from war because they'd otherwise have to get real jobs, based on the usual hatred of difference.

UN 1947, modern State of Israel 1948. My reference to the bad deal goes back to the creation of the modern state and how those actions are causing todays problems.

[Kathianne]

UN 1947, modern State of Israel 1948. My reference to the bad deal goes back to the creation of the modern state and how those actions are causing todays problems.

My bottom line comes down to the many offers to Palestinians to gain land, a state. Always they turn it down and increase the violence. They will not compromise with the existence of Jews. Period.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

My bottom line comes down to the many offers to Palestinians to gain land, a state. Always they turn it down and increase the violence. They will not compromise with the existence of Jews. Period.

They seem to want Israel totally destroyed. Such extremism shows the truth of it,imho.
Israel existed as a nation hundreds of years before= the Pali's did not.
That is the truth of it, Tyr

[AHZ]

My bottom line comes down to the many offers to Palestinians to gain land, a state. Always they turn it down and increase the violence. They will not compromise with the existence of Jews. Period.

so where are you on illegal settlements that the israeli government won't address.

daniel Boonovitz.

[Gunny]

UN 1947, modern State of Israel 1948. My reference to the bad deal goes back to the creation of the modern state and how those actions are causing todays problems.

There are arguments for and against it being a "bad idea", just as there are at least half-million nuances/factors to argument.

The UN Resolution brought to fruition the Balfour Agreement. Why? Put on both your anti-Jew cap and your Western/Christian guilt trip cap. The Holocaust would not have happened had we honored the Balfour Agreement in 1924 (speculative, not definitive). We, as the winners, have to fix this to assuage our guilt.

If you say the UN resolution brought on the current problem, I would counter with hatred for a religion and its people - hatred of difference - caused the current problem or Jews would have had no need to be sequestered to their own isolated little patch of ground that at the time was nothing beyond its religious significance. They could live anywhere without being pariahs and/or persecuted.

Most enemies are fabricated by politicians play on fear on hatred. Like ours.

[fj1200]

There are arguments for and against it being a "bad idea", just as there are at least half-million nuances/factors to argument.

The UN Resolution brought to fruition the Balfour Agreement. Why? Put on both your anti-Jew cap and your Western/Christian guilt trip cap. The Holocaust would not have happened had we honored the Balfour Agreement in 1924 (speculative, not definitive). We, as the winners, have to fix this to assuage our guilt.

If you say the UN resolution brought on the current problem, I would counter with hatred for a religion and its people - hatred of difference - caused the current problem or Jews would have had no need to be sequestered to their own isolated little patch of ground that at the time was nothing beyond its religious significance. They could live anywhere without being pariahs and/or persecuted.

Most enemies are fabricated by politicians play on fear on hatred. Like ours.

I started this with the idea that the Palestineans got a raw deal in the beginning with their loss of their particular set of natural rights; life, liberty, property (and yes I know your position on you don't have any rights unless you can defend them). Were those losses necessary? Did UN actions lead to those losses? Did they become merely political pawns because of Israel's Muslim neighbors and their action? They have zero self determination at present that probably did not need to be and now they are being held hostage by their "leaders" with built-in Israel hatred.

I guess it comes down to can the problems of the past be helpful in a peaceful future for the Middle East and Israel as a whole?

[RoccoR]

RE: Was it a Raw Deal?
SUBTOPIC: Thumbnail View
※→ Gunny, fj1200, et al,

The Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917. The Treaty of Lausanne (which replaced the unratified Treaty of Sevres) was 1923.

The UN Resolution brought to fruition the Balfour Agreement. Why? Put on both your anti-Jew cap and your Western/Christian guilt trip cap. The Holocaust would not have happened had we honored the Balfour Agreement in 1924 (speculative, not definitive). ...

(COMMENT)

We do not know the political outcomes if the Treaty of Sevres (1920) had been ratified and adopted, as opposed to the Treaty of Lausanne (1923).

An important point that the Arab Palestinians seldom recognize is that the territory known as "Palestine" was not mentioned once in the treaty. (Not once!). By the Treaty, "Palestine" was territory included under the Territorial Clauses found in Section 1 of the Treaty - Article 3(1):

"From the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down as follows:

(I ) With Syria:
The frontier described in Article 8 of the Franco-Turkish Agreement of the 20th October 1921."


In the near Century of Political haggling since the Treaty of Lausanne, many changes to the understanding of what the term "Palestine" means have been made. Prior to 15 MAY 1948, "Palestine was considered a "Legal Entity." It was neither a "state," or a "country." Based on General Assembly Resolution A/RES/43/177 (15 DEC 1982) "Palestine" was used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" (PLO). Based on the General Assembly Resolution A/RES/67/19.
SOURCE: Official Memorandum, from the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs (2 DEC 2012).

Most enemies are fabricated by politicians play on fear on hatred. Like ours.

(COMMENT)

In April 1950, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan officially annex the West Bank. The West Bank remained a sovereign Jordanian Territory until 31 July 1988 when King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank. Between April 1950 and July 1988, the residents of the West Bank were Jordanian Citizens. The only official governing body as of 21 August 1988 was the Israeli Occupation Force.
SOURCE: Period 9, Official Hashemite Kingdom History

UN 1947, modern State of Israel 1948. My reference to the bad deal goes back to the creation of the modern state and how those actions are causing todays problems.

(COMMENT)

It is often heard said that the UN created the Modern State of Israel. That is not accurate. The Provisional Government of Israel declared independence under the Right of Self-Determination. The UN General Assembly has no legal authority to create or disband a nation.


Most Respectfully,
R

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

RE: Was it a Raw Deal?
SUBTOPIC: Thumbnail View
※→ Gunny, fj1200, et al,

The Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917. The Treaty of Lausanne (which replaced the unratified Treaty of Sevres) was 1923.


(COMMENT)

We do not know the political outcomes if the Treaty of Sevres (1920) had been ratified and adopted, as opposed to the Treaty of Lausanne (1923).

An important point that the Arab Palestinians seldom recognize is that the territory known as "Palestine" was not mentioned once in the treaty. (Not once!). By the Treaty, "Palestine" was territory included under the Territorial Clauses found in Section 1 of the Treaty - Article 3(1):

"From the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down as follows:

(I ) With Syria:
The frontier described in Article 8 of the Franco-Turkish Agreement of the 20th October 1921."


In the near Century of Political haggling since the Treaty of Lausanne, many changes to the understanding of what the term "Palestine" means have been made. Prior to 15 MAY 1948, "Palestine was considered a "Legal Entity." It was neither a "state," or a "country." Based on General Assembly Resolution A/RES/43/177 (15 DEC 1982) "Palestine" was used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" (PLO). Based on the General Assembly Resolution A/RES/67/19.
SOURCE: Official Memorandum, from the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs (2 DEC 2012).


(COMMENT)

In April 1950, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan officially annex the West Bank. The West Bank remained a sovereign Jordanian Territory until 31 July 1988 when King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank. Between April 1950 and July 1988, the residents of the West Bank were Jordanian Citizens. The only official governing body as of 21 August 1988 was the Israeli Occupation Force.
SOURCE: Period 9, Official Hashemite Kingdom History


(COMMENT)

It is often heard said that the UN created the Modern State of Israel. That is not accurate. The Provisional Government of Israel declared independence under the Right of Self-Determination. The UN General Assembly has no legal authority to create or disband a nation.


Most Respectfully,
R

Interesting information provided by you. Regardless of those details the Pali's have no right to be declared a nation and be given Israel's territory.
Merely wishing something (no matter what fanatism is involved) does not make it right/legal. ---Tyr .

[icansayit]

ANY recognition of Palestinians is just about equal to our Congress, recognizing ANTIFA as a viable, peaceful
organization...and including ANTIFA in any FUNDING by the American people.

For instance. Our Pentagon supplies ANTIFA with missiles to attack Anyone who disagrees with their Terror.

Think about it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

ANY recognition of Palestinians is just about equal to our Congress, recognizing ANTIFA as a viable, peaceful
organization...and including ANTIFA in any FUNDING by the American people.

For instance. Our Pentagon supplies ANTIFA with missiles to attack Anyone who disagrees with their Terror.

Think about it.

Hey, that is a very good comparison my friend! --Tyr