"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
Well from My POV
as i mentioned.
I'm really not saying anything new. just adding historical context.
My initial point was only that the roots of all our freedoms. and the way most conservatives think about what the moral lines are, and what should be legal or not is BASED ... comes from the christian Bible based culture from Europe, filtered through Aquinas, Wycliff, Calvin etc, brought to the U.S. promoted by the Puritans, Baptist, Quakers, Catholics etc, imbibed by Deist and even "infidels"/atheist. who assumed the morals to be true.
And that today we've forgotten those roots and without the knowledge of that root, and more people going back to those roots, the freedoms we ASSUME "everybody knows" are going to slip away.
Having tried to say that a few times and few different ways.
It seems everyones take away from that is that I want everyone to lead every political conversation with that info.
Or that I want to the church to take over gov't or to try and get voters to make baptist doctrine into laws or something.
Things I've never proposed in any way.
But some how it seems people's serious concerns come out with anyone even mentioning the facts of history that religion/Christianity played. still plays.
As the root of western moral & legal standards.
So somehow the response is that religion CAN NOT and SHOULD NOT be brought up in politics. And how bad religion is... violent even.
I'm not sure what i'm not communicating clearly and why folks are jumping to every negative conclusion about "religion" after mentioning historical facts.
And as i mentioned before, I want no new laws.
I want REPEAL of new laws so that the old laws stand.
The old laws that ALIGN CLOSER with "religion".
Amazingly it seems that the old laws align closer to "religion" specifically, broad brush Conservative Christianity.
It's almost like the people who wrote them were religious or influenced by religion or maybe even Christian or something.
Last edited by revelarts; 08-24-2023 at 09:58 PM.
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16
"when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
"You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
“Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho
You aren't listening. That current law is based on Judeo-Christian morality was dealt with first or second page of the thread. Law is worded in a secular manner as to include all, religious and non-religious. Law based solely on religion would be challenged at every turn by the non-religious (as they already have done and do) simply because it is based on religion.
Nobody's forgetting anything, Rev. It's about addressing issues in appropriate forums. It's about attempting to sell one idea at a time which has a better chance of success than piling a bunch of wants into one package like Congress does. The non-religious are never going to agree that our laws are Judeo-Christian-based, nor to support that they should be. They have message board pages of pages denying any such thing regardless the fact they are wrong.
The non-religious however are part of society and have the same Rights as religious people. As intended. Attempting to sell an idea to the people includes all. Not going to sell much when when your pitch takes away/tramples on the rights of some.
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke
I personally do not care whether or not the Ten Commandments appear as a donated decoration in a courthouse. I have a MAJOR issue with the crybaby fuckwits claiming it somehow infringes on the Establishment clause/their rights. That's stupid leftists in their neverending mission to destroy our history and culture and rewrite it. A basic tenet of totalitarianism, which this thread is about.
"School prayer" amounted to saying a prayer at lunchtime over your Daniel Boone lunchbox. "Karma" got OHare for that shit. If I felt like praying over my lunch at school I'd do it. Fuck them.
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke
I saw your post as a side issue as I was not and am not arguing about getting God out of anything. God is always with those of us He is always with. We are not the only members of society. The appeal is societal freedom and reform. reform society and the government follows as reformed members of society fill government seats.
Hard enough to sell for a spoiled society used to instant gratification. Reforming society from the ground up would take awhile. None of us would live to see the outcome. We're just caught in the current struggle.
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke
Why should religion be kept out of government? Couple of examples. One worse than the other. Hopefully, cooler heads in Israel will prevail.
https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...tion-of-women/
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16
Government Allegedly Refuses to Let Husband and Wife Participate in Foster Care, Adoption Over Biblical Views: ‘Their Faith Is Not Supportive’
https://www.faithwire.com/2023/08/29...ot-supportive/
Can't have religion or religious people involved in or giving input into laws or gov't controlled activities.
That'b be bad. "mind control", "theocracy" & the history of religious violence you know.
The gov't here is obviously just following the Golden Rule.
those in gov't just want the BEST for children, and religious people are not "supportive".
And the secular gov't officials wouldn't want THIER CHILDREN raised by religious people so .. boom. do unto others.
Golden Rule APPLIED.
Maybe this makes it a little clearer WHY I say, when I hear "you can't have religion in politics" it rubs the wrong way.
It's this kinda crap.
Because it almost means , by default, not only "no religious laws" but no "religious people".
The fact that "no one HERE" has SAID that... or thinks they mean that, is no comfort.
The point is, the logical application of the way it's phrased, and the secular mindset means exclusion.
As a start.
And Please don't tell me that 'the courts will fix it' and this is an extreme case and it will never happen as policy.
I don't want to list the things I've warned of as logical extensions of bad legal/court precedents & ideas that have come to pass.
Ideas have consequences... sometime unintended.. sometimes intended.
If we look at the principals 1st & add pinch of honest understanding of human nature.
We can often get a clue of what direction somethings head towards.
Last edited by revelarts; 08-30-2023 at 07:08 PM.
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16
You are using bad government as an example. Isn't this thread about how to overcome bad government? Or it was
You are not keeping it in context of the discussion. I consider the decision you cite to be incorrect, and unconstitutional. It's religious persecution.
When the right people take back government, such a decision is rare, and would more than likely be overturned. Religion belongs to the people. Government belongs to the people. Government does not belong to religion and it should not. That doesn't mean religious people in government cannot make decisions based on their morals/ethics. They are in fact expected to and elected to office based on where they state they stand.
The wrong people are in office. Replacing them with the right people solves ALL people's issues, not just yours nor any other individual's.
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke
I'm partly saying, sort of, what you were saying in the other tread about BEING RAISE with religion.
Even though you and i didn't "believe it" at least I still thought the principals and teaching were basically OK, and a decent moral framework. if not 100% correct.
MOST PEOPLE in the U.S. did.
As a matter of course, not a matter of Gov't mandate. Or religious take over.
the religion and it's morals simply permeated the culture.
the ideas that made the consensus framework of most people's thinking of "right and wrong" was basically Christian.
But now that a growing portion of secular society think Christianity is bad or at least suspect.
why should they adhere to the the general framework of morals in or out of law/politics?
there was NO NEED for Priest, Pastors or "the church" to make the laws because the people all ready GENERALLY believed that there were only 2 genders, and God or somehow we all have the right to freedom of speech, religion. The right not to have our home busted in without warrant, or be tortured, or torture.
Those things were the RIGHT thing to do.
Now it's ANYTHING goes.
Free speech they say is Too dangerous.
So the golden rule says "do unto others" So the thing to do is Protect people from harmful hateful speech that will cause pain and suicide.
Since religion teaches things that are hateful and bigoted by a NON Christian framework, then it must be suppressed... for the greater good.
"do unto others" is the greater law.. so the constitutional protections don't apply Gunny.
except the "promote the general welfare".
bottom line is thsi
the nation had a basic overall POV that was Christian. Now not so much.
and that means what was set up BY people thinking under a general Christian framework (not theocracy) can't be defended fully.
And it is being dismantled, cannibalized.
And assumed as changeable in definition as gender, man & woman.
the whole culture needs to be renewed to the the older way of thinking.. it's roots.
and that has to be organic, not by Christians making new laws or taking over but by MORE people understanding who God is.
because at this point,
Well there's a verse from the old testament that summed up a time when Israel went to crap politically and spiritually.
"...In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes...."
If there is no objective framework for morals then ,at best, the laws will become a mishmash of ideologies and personal visions of right & wrong.
people "doing unto others" what they think is best.
It won't be right people, but people who think they are right.
Last edited by revelarts; 08-30-2023 at 08:27 PM.
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16
Horrible, but apparently MA DCF isn't even following MA law.
https://www.mspcc.org/maff/fpbor/Basic rights of foster parents:
- To be treated with dignity and respect.
- To be free from all forms of discrimination in their role as a foster parent.
- To be free from any retaliation for asserting the rights outlined in this new law.
- To have information regarding the foster home (including all household members) be kept confidential.
"when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
"You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
“Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho
18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.