"We let the soldiers down" Army Secretary Francis J. Harvey.

[Gem]

It's possible-----It's also possible that the Israeli/Palestinian issue is a big smoke screen for Islamo-facist agression. Do you think that the way to deal with an international dispute is to blow the hell out a couple buildings in New York. Did Bin Laden not think that the US might have taken that as military attack and the response would be a military one as opposed to diplomatic? I mean what was this guy thinking ?

Osama is a fanatical religious fundamentalist. What was he thinking? Who knows? But, as is the case with most hard-core religious fundamentalsts he's a couple of cards shy of a deck.
And, yes, attacking the WTC was an act of war, which is why I supported the President I didn't vote for in either election when he went after bin Laden and toppled the Taliban that had been protecting bin Laden. If Bush were to say that he was going to start relocating our forces from Iraq into Afghanistan to resume the hunt for bin Laden and seek the destruction of al Qeada I would still support him in that endeavor. Bush's biggest fuck-up was in straying from the good fight to invade Iraq. True, al Qeada is in Iraq now, but they weren't there before Bush invaded. Think about it for a minute- Saddam was a Sunni, bin Laden is a Shiite. Saddam was a secularist, bin Laden a fundamentalist Wahabi Shiite.

Saddam had precious little use for fundamentalist Shiites, so why would have Saddam welcomed him and his organization into Iraq? I think the most likely scenario is that Osama might have approached Saddam but that Saddam would have declined Osamas offers, whatever they may have been. Considering the long-standing hostilities between the two religious groups I don't think any real level of cooperation between the two would have been likely.

Gem

[pegwinn]

CSM: System won't let me rep you until I spread it around. Sorry boss.
Did a blog on Walter Reed. I am really surprized at the sheer number of folks going nuts over this.

[Gaffer]

I think you are now obligated to show where I've said that, Stephanie. Has it ever occured to you that if someone doesn't like you that you shouldn't go engaging in actions that might piss them off? It isn't that we deserved 9/11, Stephanie, but it is true that our past actions in regards to supporting the Israeli's, plus our placing a military installation 10 miles from Mecca- a direct show of disrespect to the religion of Islam- might have infuriated them enough to want to attack US?
I might be wrong but I get the impression that you may be a biker gal. How would you like it if I went to your clubhouse and started setting my wares up on your bike to sell? Think maybe other people might feel the same way about their own property and personal space?

Gem

The US went to saudi arabia at the request of the saudi's to help protect them from saddam. Where the bases were set up was up to them. The collision forces involved in that action were very careful NOT to disrespect anything to do with the muslims and for the most part were well away from any major cities. And ALL forces were withdrwn as soon as the war ended. Any military still in saudi arabia are there by invitation and are on saudi controled bases.

For your information we have been at war with the islamist since 1979. They were a little busy with the russians in afganhistan for ten years but after that they turned their attention back to us. It's just that we are fighting back now instead of sitting wondering where the next attack will be.

[Gem]

CSM: System won't let me rep you until I spread it around. Sorry boss.
Did a blog on Walter Reed. I am really surprized at the sheer number of folks going nuts over this.

Looks like even our own high-level military commanders are going nuts over this, Pegwinn. Heads have been rolling at a rapid pace, in case you hadn't noticed. And it hasn't been the liberals that have made those heads roll- it's been our own military commanders that have been doing that.
Why do you think that is, Pegwinn?
Please post your reply and I'll get back to you later- the lady of the house needs the computer.

Gem

[Dilloduck]

Osama is a fanatical religious fundamentalist. What was he thinking? Who knows? But, as is the case with most hard-core religious fundamentalsts he's a couple of cards shy of a deck.
And, yes, attacking the WTC was an act of war, which is why I supported the President I didn't vote for in either election when he went after bin Laden and toppled the Taliban that had been protecting bin Laden. If Bush were to say that he was going to start relocating our forces from Iraq into Afghanistan to resume the hunt for bin Laden and seek the destruction of al Qeada I would still support him in that endeavor. Bush's biggest fuck-up was in straying from the good fight to invade Iraq. True, al Qeada is in Iraq now, but they weren't there before Bush invaded. Think about it for a minute- Saddam was a Sunni, bin Laden is a Shiite. Saddam was a secularist, bin Laden a fundamentalist Wahabi Shiite.

Saddam had precious little use for fundamentalist Shiites, so why would have Saddam welcomed him and his organization into Iraq? I think the most likely scenario is that Osama might have approached Saddam but that Saddam would have declined Osamas offers, whatever they may have been. Considering the long-standing hostilities between the two religious groups I don't think any real level of cooperation between the two would have been likely.

Gem

You didn't answer my first question.

[pegwinn]

Looks like even our own high-level military commanders are going nuts over this, Pegwinn. Heads have been rolling at a rapid pace, in case you hadn't noticed. And it hasn't been the liberals that have made those heads roll- it's been our own military commanders that have been doing that.
Why do you think that is, Pegwinn?
Please post your reply and I'll get back to you later- the lady of the house needs the computer.

Gem

Notice I didn't mention liberals? Don't make the mistake of ascribing labels until you know the poster. As I said, I did a blog on it, read it if you will then perhaps we can discuss it.

[Gaffer]

Osama is a fanatical religious fundamentalist. What was he thinking? Who knows? But, as is the case with most hard-core religious fundamentalsts he's a couple of cards shy of a deck.
And, yes, attacking the WTC was an act of war, which is why I supported the President I didn't vote for in either election when he went after bin Laden and toppled the Taliban that had been protecting bin Laden. If Bush were to say that he was going to start relocating our forces from Iraq into Afghanistan to resume the hunt for bin Laden and seek the destruction of al Qeada I would still support him in that endeavor. Bush's biggest fuck-up was in straying from the good fight to invade Iraq. True, al Qeada is in Iraq now, but they weren't there before Bush invaded. Think about it for a minute- Saddam was a Sunni, bin Laden is a Shiite. Saddam was a secularist, bin Laden a fundamentalist Wahabi Shiite.

Saddam had precious little use for fundamentalist Shiites, so why would have Saddam welcomed him and his organization into Iraq? I think the most likely scenario is that Osama might have approached Saddam but that Saddam would have declined Osamas offers, whatever they may have been. Considering the long-standing hostilities between the two religious groups I don't think any real level of cooperation between the two would have been likely.

Gem

bin laden is a SUNNI wahabist. And his representatives met with saddams a number of times, even before 9/11. There were lots of al queda in iraq and a al queda training camp in the northern part near the iranian border. saddam was willing to work with anyone that was against the US. There is cooperation going on right now between the two groups. iran is supplying the sunni insurgents with weapons and other equipment and supplying the shites with the same. There are over 40,000 iranian agents in iraq right now helping both sides to destabilize the government and kill US forces. They have a mutual enemy at this time and until that enemy is gone they will fight together. After that they will turn on each other.

As for afganhistan. There are 50,000 NATO troops there now. How many do you think we need? Things are stirring up there again because the taliban and al queda have been allowed to regroup in western pakistan and are now strong enough to launch attacks into afganhistan again. Never hear anything on the news about all the battles fought along that border. Over 4000 taliban and al queda killed in major fighting in the last 6 months and lots more fighting expected in the spring. We can't chase bin laden down when he's hiding in another country and they won't let us go in after him. Unless you are all for invading pakistan?

[CSM]

OK, now we're actually getting somewhere.
And you know what? I hear you!
Sounds like you were in 'Nam, CSM. I think there's something you need to know about me. I lost more than a few friends during that time when I tried to tell my fellow peaceniks that they shouldn't be spittin' on returning soldiers, that they- as a general rule anyway- weren't the problem- that it was the lies and deceptions of those in power and those that stood to gain so much from that military campaign that were the problem. Yeah, you may have thought you were fighting for our country, but the sad fact is you were misled by your own government and fought a war that, in hindsight, never needed to be fought at all. and here is where we differ...I did't think I was fighting for my country ... I KNOW I WAS! I hate to tell you this, CSM, but you were being used- by your own government and the corporations that made billions off of all those misled soldiers, you included. Horsecrap ... I wasn't drafted, I joined. I volunteered (twice) to go over there. I know exactly what was at stake. I was not and am not as stupid or misled as you would have the world believe. I also don't believe I've ever said that our soldiers deserved to die because "they knew what they were getting into". You did not, others like you have. You're not the only one that lost friends in that war, CSM- and it hurt me just as bad as it hurt you. You think so? Did those friends die in your arms? Did you hear their cries of pain and anguish with your own ears? Did you have to wipe their blood and guts off your uniform (or worse, wear it for a few days until you got back to base camp)? Or did you read about it in the home town newspaper as you sat in our college dorm?

If I come across as "morally superior" to you maybe it's because I've been through my own battles and gotten screwed and hurt and faced death a few times myself. There are many battlefields in the journey of life, CSM, and a lot of those are concerned with learning the appropriate ways of dealing with misfortune and bitter disappointments. Do not presme to tell me what is appropriate; you have NO IDEA...none. It is the battles within that are the hardest battles to win, and to win those battles one must learn to step out of oneself and learn to see the world or a situation through someone elses eyes. You yourself may want to do that sometime before you start telling others how they should feel, think or act. It is, in a word, an excercise in getting over oneself and learning to move forward and releasing the anger and pain of previous realities that have caused us pain. Also, do not think you can lecture me with our sanctimonious psycho-babble....
You say you were wounded. Well, you know what, I've been wounded from hostile fire on the battlefield of life too. Battlefield of life??? Do you think that soldiers only fight on some isolated battlefield that has nothing to do with life? My friend, soldiers fight on more battlefields than you will ever know, including the one you call life.And you know what? When I returned to that battlefield a month later I wasn't allowed, by law, to carry a weapon on that battlefield. But I returned to that battlefield, unarmed, as required by law, with a paralysed arm and still spitting out chunks of lead, and performed the duties I was ordered to do. There are many forms of courage, CSM. You know, it took a lot of courage to go back on the job, unarmed, by myself, on the graveyard shift, after I'd been hit, point blank, with a 16 guage shotgun in the back and the side of my face. Especially without a weapon with which to defend myself. Ya know what, if it was a civilian job, you had a choice...you chose to go back into that situation. Just I and many others CHOSE to go back to ours...or perhaps you were misled and used?? But I did what I knew I had to do. You know, it took a lot of courage for those flower children in the 60's to walk up to those National Guardsmen that had their weapons leveled at them and stick the stems of flowers into the barrels of the weapons the Guardsmen had leveled at them, knowing full well that the order to open fire could come at any time too. Horsecrap again...those students never ever believed those soldiers would open fire...not in a million years! They were playing a game. It wasn't a courage born of fear or an instinct to survive, CSM, it was a courage borne of belief and conviction and a knowledge of right and wrong and a desire to do what we knew was right. You are so full of it! Those students were protesting because they thought they were being cute. It was the thing to do in those days. It was a spiritual courage, CSM, the kind of courage Jesus tried to teach, and there is no level of courage greater than that. You can save that too. I have seen the face of courage...all kinds, including spiritual courage.


Know why we aren't seeing any protestors spitting on wounded returning soldiers today like we saw during the 'Nam years? It's because we learned the lessons of the mistakes of our past. It has nothing to do with anyone supporting a "cause celebre' ". Bullshit. You are not spitting on soldier these days because there are those who today will not allow that to happen ever again...and it isn't you or those like you who ensure that.We know now what not to do. To that I can agree; you know that won't win you or "the party" votes. Question is, have those that support Bush&Co and the War in Iraq learned their lessons from the past, as US liberals have? Have they learned what not to do? Have you?

Oh indeed I have! I have learned that the "silent majority" can no longer be silent! They must stand up to the likes of you who have done all that I described before. I will never ever let denigrating comments about soldiers go unchallenged; I will not stand idly by while those like you try to undermine this country in the name of morality, or anything else. I will not let the lies and hypocricy stand in the limelight unopposed.
If we come across as being "superior" maybe it's because US liberals are disgusted at seeing our nation and our soldiers duped, not once but twice, in the same way in a single lifetime. Again the arrogance...the presumption that soldiers are too stupid to know what is right, too ignorant to know a scam when it happens. I too am disgusted...disgusted that once again, those who are interested only in political power turn to those like you to undermine this country. I am disgusted that once again those like you will impose defeat on the United States and then smuggly pat yourselves on the back. This may come as a surprise to you, CSM, but US liberals support our troops and don't like what this administration, and the corporate entities they cater and kow-tow to, are putting soldiers much like yourself through. Guess what, I don't believe ANY liberal truly supports the troops. Your own words and the words of the liberals just like you show how insincere you are! Instead of all the partisan bickering and hate and resentments from the past taking control of our lives wouldn't it be better to just let a peacenik liberal come up to you and hug you, say what needs to said, offer the deserved apologies and let the tears flow and watch the hatred, angst and bitterness melt away so that we can be one people and one nation once again? No, how about letting an old soldier like me come up to you and knock the snot out of you for selling us out those many years ago and then kick your ass for doing it again? That would be far better!
Things need to be said alright but you and those like you will not listen; but then I knew what you meant is that you want to tell me how wrong I am, but you have no intention of letting ME tell YOU how wrong YOU are.... That, I think, would be the healing way, and I think both you and I know that there's plenty of healing that needs to be done in OUR country.

There is indeed healing that needs to be done, but it sure wont happen if you keep sticking that knife in a soldier's back. It wont happen if you and those like you keep aiding and abetting the enemy. It wont happen as long as you and those like you look down your noses and me and those like me.
I think you also need to know that I haven't written this from a space of ego or superiority. What I have written here comes from the heart. I know you can't see it, but I am wiping the tears of hope and forgiveness from my face as I write these last few words. That should serve as a clear indication of the depth of what I have come to believe and wish to share with you. In the crowd I run with we say that you can always count on your fair-weather friends to tell you what you want to hear, but it's your real friends that will tell you what you need to hear. Really? Then you are trying to tell me that you are ready to listen to what I have to say? Or are you so self centered and arrogant that you think it is only YOU that has things I need to hear...I now the answer to that already! I really would prefer to be your friend, CSM, but you're going to have to let me be that friend- and that choice would have to be up to you.



Peace, Brother!

Gem

You want to be my friend? Change the arrogance, quit being a hypocrit, stop looking down your nose at those who do not agree with your politics and lose the hidden agenda when you post. I am more that willing to debate reasonably and as equals BUT not with someone who is thinks I am less intelligent or morally inferior. I will not debate with someone who posts with the presumption that they already have all the answers, that anyone who holds an opposing view was/is misled or stupid or lied to. I will not debate with those whose ONLY intent in posting is to bash the United States or its government. I will debate or discuss with those whom I feel are truly trying to understand and have something to offer me in return (telling me I was misled or stupid isn't it...I heard enough of that in the 60's and 70's...they were wrong then too!). Just know this....I still won't be your brother!

[CSM]

Looks like even our own high-level military commanders are going nuts over this, Pegwinn. Heads have been rolling at a rapid pace, in case you hadn't noticed. And it hasn't been the liberals that have made those heads roll- it's been our own military commanders that have been doing that.
Why do you think that is, Pegwinn?
Please post your reply and I'll get back to you later- the lady of the house needs the computer.

Gem

I will say this: the military can and does hold people responsible. Those that screw up do eventually pay the price. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, this has been going on for decades and some fish escaped the net, so to speak but maybe now Walter Reed and facilities like it will get the attention they need. I sincerely hope to that this great concern now being expressed by all the do gooders will extend to the VA as well. I'm sure you have already sent your generous donation to help the poor, misled, misused wounded soldier....right Gem?

[avatar4321]

You want to be my friend? Change the arrogance, quit being a hypocrit, stop looking down your nose at those who do not agree with your politics and lose the hidden agenda when you post. I am more that willing to debate reasonably and as equals BUT not with someone who is thinks I am less intelligent or morally inferior. I will not debate with someone who posts with the presumption that they already have all the answers, that anyone who holds an opposing view was/is misled or stupid or lied to. I will not debate with those whose ONLY intent in posting is to bash the United States or its government. I will debate or discuss with those whom I feel are truly trying to understand and have something to offer me in return (telling me I was misled or stupid isn't it...I heard enough of that in the 60's and 70's...they were wrong then too!). Just know this....I still won't be your brother!

She is just projecting herself onto you. I can't imagine how you feel and I am not going to pretend to. Just know that there are people who do support you and all the troops that have followed and are not just saying that to stay politically viable.

And you are definitely right about one thing. Putting flowers in guns you know aren't going to fire isn't courageous. It's quite childish.

What amazes me about all this is these liberals think they are standing for "freedom and peace" when its the exact opposite. The US military has done more for the cause of freedom and peace than any liberal could ever do. And every time they stab our troops in the back, they are fighting against that cause.

[stephanie]

She is just projecting herself onto you. I can't imagine how you feel and I am not going to pretend to. Just know that there are people who do support you and all the troops that have followed and are not just saying that to stay politically viable.

And you are definitely right about one thing. Putting flowers in guns you know aren't going to fire isn't courageous. It's quite childish.

What amazes me about all this is these liberals think they are standing for "freedom and peace" when its the exact opposite. The US military has done more for the cause of freedom and peace than any liberal could ever do. And every time they stab our troops in the back, they are fighting against that cause.

They don't care, Avatar..

Gem spoke down in the most demeaning manor that he could , yet they thought they WERE BEING SENSISTIVE.....

That's why I spoke no more to him/ she than was nessarary.....

DO they have no sense of what it is to volunteer to love a Country so much your life is WORTH THE SACRAFICE.....???

They believe the purest form of dissent is railing against ones OWN COUNTRY, calling us baby killers, we are the EVIL....

Do they care about our history.....the millions of men, mostly......but recently the women who have stood up for us,
The United States of America.........

To them....If you can get a bus ticket to a anti-war protest...your are SOMEBODY......

WE KNOW........
WHO THE TRUE PRATIOTS OF THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ARE..

[avatar4321]

They don't care, Avatar..

Gem spoke down in the most demeamng mamor that he could , yet he thought he WAS BIENG SENSISTIVE.....

That's why I spoke no more to him/ she than was nessarary.....

They have no sense of what it is to volunteer to love a Country so much your life is WORTH THE SACRAFICE.....

They believe the purest form of dissent is railing against ones OWN COUNTRY, calling us baby killers, we are the EVIL....

They don't care about our history.....the millisons of men, mostly......but recently the women who have stood up of us, The United States of America.........

To them....If you can get a bus ticket to a anti-war protest...your are SOMEBODY......

WE KNOW........
WHO THE TRUE PRATIOTS OF THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ARE..

20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! (Isaiah 5:20-21)

It's amazing that we live in a day when things which are good can be considered evil by people and those things which are evil considered good.

[stephanie]

20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! (Isaiah 5:20-21)

It's amazing that we live in a day when things which are good can be considered evil by people and those things which are evil considered good.

Amen, my friend...

I would love to be able to love all of mankind...

But I will tell my biggest disappoint of all.....
Is seeing my own people in this great nation, fall into the screamish, anti-American people of this great country....
But, is it inevitable.....??
For the weak here has no sense anymore for standing up for their own country, and it breaks my heart to pieces to see our beloved country being torn down, by it's OWN CITIZENS....
MY TEARS WILL BE SILENCED BY MY DEATH, for I am old now, and can only defend her for so long...
but my children will have to live on in a Nation where it's own citizens can help bring her to it's knees..........'

What a crying shame..

But I will not lay down and sacrifice my life for evil, and not fight back, and if I can help save another's life from it, I will do it if possible...
Even if it means sacrificing my own life...

Because to me.....If you give into Evil, There is no life..

And the United States of America, was worth dying and fighting for....

Call it stupid, Americanism....Call it stupid to love ones Country so much....

Whatever you want to call it???

Call it a love for ones Country and it's People......

The greatest, the Free, the Best.

[avatar4321]

Amen, my friend...

I would love to be able to love all of mankind...

But I will tell my biggest disappoint of all.....
Is seeing my own people in this great nation, fall into the screamish, anti-American people of this great country....
But, is it inevitable.....??
For the weak here has no sense anymore for standing up for their own country, and it breaks my heart to pieces to see our beloved country being torn down, by it's OWN CITIZENS....
MY TEARS WILL BE SILENCED BY MY DEATH, for I am old now, and can only defend her for so long...
but my children will have to live on in a Nation where it's own citizens can help bring her to it's knees..........'

What a crying shame..

But I will not lay down and sacrifice my life for evil, and not fight back, and if I can help save another's life from it, I will do it if possible...
Even if it means sacrificing my own life...

Because to me.....If you give into Evil, There is no life..

And the United States of America, was worth dying and fighting for....

Call it stupid, Americanism....Call it stupid to love ones Country so much....

Whatever you want to call it???

Call it a love for ones Country and it's People......

The greatest, the Free, the Best.

No it's not inevitable that we are destroyed as a nation.

However, we may face a time when we face trial and death before our nation will rise from the ashes.

[Gunny]

So what you're telling me is that it was the military/government bureuacracy that left your ass "out there", underfunded, underequiped and underarmed and dependant on substandard medical facilities and not the liberal anti-war crowd that put you through all that? If that's the case then why aren't you raising Holy Hell with the "Powers-that-be" that left your happy little ass out there to dry? Why blame it all on the liberals, when it was US liberals that were raising Holy Hell about the very same underfunded, underequiped and underarmed situation the Bush Administration subjected presumably you and your fellow soldiers to?

I think it's time for folks like you to put the blame exactly where it belongs, unless it's easier for folks like you to vent your frustrations on "easier" and less "threatening" targets like liberals and the anti-war crowd.

Gem

Gee, I guess what I posted was too simple for you that you had to go twisting the words around to suit yourself?

Feel free to point out exactly where I said the liberal, anti-war crowd was in and of themselves responsible for bureaucracy. YOU are the one trying to point a finger and misplace blame on Bush and/or his administration, but then, that is hardly a novel concept for you lefties.

Both Democrat Presidents I served under cut military funding to the ridiculous point. Both Republican Presidents I served under ensured we had the manpower and materiel to accomplish our mission, not to mention updated weaponry, better food and clothing. I had more money in my pocket and it went further ... right up to Clinton helping himself to my wallet.

If you don't think cutting military funding exacerbates an already underfunded bureaucratic problem, it's only because it suits you not to, and that CAN be laid at the feet of Democrats who think they can balance the budget and fund their pet socialist programs on the backs of the middle class and the military.

Now that I have covered your piss-poor attempt at deflection, where military healthcare facilities are concerned, it is up to the military to ensure they are adequate, and the bottom-line is, mission accomplishment comes first. Everything else is secondary.

I'd also like to know where the lefty, newfound concern was for inadequate military healthcare before now? There wasn't any. Not until you thought you could use as just another dishonest attack against Bush.