US Troops Are Winning in Iraq - When Will Dems Admit It?

[glockmail]

no. you dodged my issue by spewing a smoke screen or word games. Try again:

How long are you willing to continue to attempt to make sunnis and shiites live together peacefully in a multicultural democracy in the territory we call Iraq?

I claim NO more expertise than the administration. I have an opinion. I stated it, and I stated the basis for it. Clearly, you disagree....and on at least one key point, you don't really disagree with me, you merely disagree with my right to voice my disagreement, preferring, it would seem, to silently witness attempts to institute what you believe to be bad foreign policy rather than speaking up. THAT would fit my definition of a manliness deficit on your part.

As I said, I think that the administration's stated goals are stupid and unachievable. I have a desire to affect a change in American foreign policy by using the ballot box. That is my right and my duty as an American.

So now JFK's philosophy is a word game to you. My how far Democrats have fallen.

To answer our question more directly, if it is in America’s interests, I advocate paying any price or bearing any burden.

You admit that you have no more expertise than the Administration. Yes you are entitled to your opinion no matter how misinformed. However you never addressed my question as to why the Democrat leadership appears to be undermining the Administration’s efforts to achieve it’s stated goals.

[red states rule]

So now JFK's philosophy is a word game to you. My how far Democrats have fallen.

To answer our question more directly, if it is in America’s interests, I advocate paying any price or bearing any burden.

You admit that you have no more expertise than the Administration. Yes you are entitled to your opinion no matter how misinformed. However you never addressed my question as to why the Democrat leadership appears to be undermining the Administration’s efforts to achieve it’s stated goals.

You Bushbot warmonger

[retiredman]

So now JFK's philosophy is a word game to you. My how far Democrats have fallen.

To answer our question more directly, if it is in America’s interests, I advocate paying any price or bearing any burden.

You admit that you have no more expertise than the Administration. Yes you are entitled to your opinion no matter how misinformed. However you never addressed my question as to why the Democrat leadership appears to be undermining the Administration’s efforts to achieve it’s stated goals.

I think it is the duty of the loyal opposition to affect a change in our foreign policy when they feel it is poorly designed and fatally flawed in its inept execution and it is the duty of the loyal opposition to do their very best to keep the administration from driving the ship of state up onto the rocks and shoals.

Again....you yourself doubt the ability of sunnis and shiites to live together. How many decades would you suggest we continue an effort which you yourself question the validity of? Are we better served by spending twenty more years trying to get them to live together before finally coming to the realization that they really don't want to and won't do so regardless of the blood and treasure we throw at them?

Would you sit quietly in your seat on a bus when you could clearly see that the bus driver was steering the bus over a cliff, or would you try to take action to change the direction of the bus?

[glockmail]

I think it is the duty of the loyal opposition to affect a change in our foreign policy when they feel it is poorly designed and fatally flawed in its inept execution and it is the duty of the loyal opposition to do their very best to keep the administration from driving the ship of state up onto the rocks and shoals.

Again....you yourself doubt the ability of sunnis and shiites to live together. How many decades would you suggest we continue an effort which you yourself question the validity of? Are we better served by spending twenty more years trying to get them to live together before finally coming to the realization that they really don't want to and won't do so regardless of the blood and treasure we throw at them?

Would you sit quietly in your seat on a bus when you could clearly see that the bus driver was steering the bus over a cliff, or would you try to take action to change the direction of the bus?

Your analogy is way over the top and not worth commenting on.

With regards to the reality of Iraq, I repeat again: if it is in America’s interests, I advocate paying any price or bearing any burden.

You have now admitted that the Democrat leadership not only appears to be, but is actively working towards undermining the Administration’s efforts to achieve it’s stated goals. This is in spite of the fact that the Democrats authorized the Administrations actions in the first place. How is that not treason?

As I stated before: ‘Real men may disagree, but they don’t let Party goals trump National interests. Real men finish what they have started, regardless of any disagreement of whether or not they should have started.’

Let’s say that the Democrats were successful, and our troops were required to leave Iraq immediately. As we saw in Vietnam, Rwanda, and Bosnia, that is likely to result in the slaughter of millions of innocent people. That is an undeniable fact. Why would the Democrats advocate that?

[retiredman]

Your analogy is way over the top and not worth commenting on.
With regards to the reality of Iraq, I repeat again: if it is in America’s interests, I advocate paying any price or bearing any burden.

You have now admitted that the Democrat leadership not only appears to be, but is actively working towards undermining the Administration’s efforts to achieve it’s stated goals. This is in spite of the fact that the Democrats authorized the Administrations actions in the first place. How is that not treason?

As I stated before: ‘Real men may disagree, but they don’t let Party goals trump National interests. Real men finish what they have started, regardless of any disagreement of whether or not they should have started.’

Let’s say that the Democrats were successful, and our troops were required to leave Iraq immediately. As we saw in Vietnam, Rwanda, and Bosnia, that is likely to result in the slaughter of millions of innocent people. That is an undeniable fact. Why would the Democrats advocate that?

My analogy is valid. you are just afraid of it. real men don't run away from arguments. If you were a member of congress and you believed that the president was engaging in foreign policy misadventures that put our country at risk, would you sit silently or would you speak up and attempt to influence the administration, through the political process, to change course?

you state: "if it is in America’s interests, I advocate paying any price or bearing any burden." In theory, I agree with that statement. Unlike you, I would temper it with reality. If president Bush determined that it was in America's interests to overcome the law of gravity, I would not agree with him and would not advocate paying any price or bearing any burden in an attempt to do so. I happen to fervently believe that trying to make Iraq into a unified multicultural democracy is a fool's errand.

Treason? How IS it treason? It is not seeking to overthrow the government. It is seeking to affect change in our foreign policy through the legal processes set up in our constitution. Treason??? Bullshit. Use of that word is nothing but hyperbolic rhetoric.


An undeniable fact? how can a likelihood be a fact?

I can just as easily say that it is an undeniable fact that, regardless of when we leave Iraq and how tamped down the violence may be, the minute we leave, all hell will break loose, the well trained Iraqi army will disintegrate into two well trained sectarian militias, and the carnage will explode.

[glockmail]

My analogy is valid. you are just afraid of it. real men don't run away from arguments. If you were a member of congress and you believed that the president was engaging in foreign policy misadventures that put our country at risk, would you sit silently or would you speak up and attempt to influence the administration, through the political process, to change course?

you state: "if it is in America’s interests, I advocate paying any price or bearing any burden." In theory, I agree with that statement. Unlike you, I would temper it with reality. If president Bush determined that it was in America's interests to overcome the law of gravity, I would not agree with him and would not advocate paying any price or bearing any burden in an attempt to do so. I happen to fervently believe that trying to make Iraq into a unified multicultural democracy is a fool's errand.

Treason? How IS it treason? It is not seeking to overthrow the government. It is seeking to affect change in our foreign policy through the legal processes set up in our constitution. Treason??? Bullshit. Use of that word is nothing but hyperbolic rhetoric.


An undeniable fact? how can a likelihood be a fact?

I can just as easily say that it is an undeniable fact that, regardless of when we leave Iraq and how tamped down the violence may be, the minute we leave, all hell will break loose, the well trained Iraqi army will disintegrate into two well trained sectarian militias, and the carnage will explode.

On your first analogy: The war is not a like a bus about to go over a cliff. The bus has one driver, while the war has many knowledgeable professionals involved; “off a cliff” alludes to complete destruction of the entire population and infrastructure, and we are talking about a small war in a small foreign country.

Your second analogy about the laws of gravity is even more ludicrous.

It is my “opinion” that the Democrat leadership has gone well past the acceptable bounds of political discourse in order to undermine the war effort and in effect, have given aid and comfort to our enemy. From John Kerry’s “Stuck in Iraq”, to Ted Kennedy’s “lies, lies, lies”, these antics have been acknowledged by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi: “I say to you: that we are in a battle, and that more than half of this battle is taking place in the battlefield of the media.” http://patriotpost.us/news/zawahiri.asp


As I stated previously, it is an undeniable fact that our immediate withdrawal from Iraq is likely to result in the slaughter of millions of innocent people. In your response you agree with that assessment. So I ask you again, Why would the Democrats advocate that?

[retiredman]

On your first analogy: The war is not a like a bus about to go over a cliff. The bus has one driver, while the war has many knowledgeable professionals involved; “off a cliff” alludes to complete destruction of the entire population and infrastructure, and we are talking about a small war in a small foreign country.

Your second analogy about the laws of gravity is even more ludicrous.

It is my “opinion” that the Democrat leadership has gone well past the acceptable bounds of political discourse in order to undermine the war effort and in effect, have given aid and comfort to our enemy. From John Kerry’s “Stuck in Iraq”, to Ted Kennedy’s “lies, lies, lies”, these antics have been acknowledged by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi: “I say to you: that we are in a battle, and that more than half of this battle is taking place in the battlefield of the media.” http://patriotpost.us/news/zawahiri.asp


As I stated previously, it is an undeniable fact that our immediate withdrawal from Iraq is likely to result in the slaughter of millions of innocent people. In your response you agree with that assessment. So I ask you again, Why would the Democrats advocate that?

the president is the captain of the ship of state. He sets the course. I disagree with the course. I feel as if he is heading the ship of state onto the rocks and shoals. He has an able crew who is keeping the various systems of that ship operating correctly, but the course is wrong. The war in Iraq is not merely about a small foreign country, it is indicative of the failed direction of this president. As a patriot, I will speak loudly and try to get the captain removed from his command prior to the ship running aground. I will try to get the captain to slow his speed to further delay what I see as an impending collision.

Your opinion about the democrats is certainly yours to have...but nothing they have done has been anything that is not sanctioned and authorized by the constitution. To call them traitors for disagreeing with the president is, itself morally treasonable and servile.

And again... how can a likelihood by an undeniable fact??? I do not agree that it is an undeniable fact that slaughter will occur. I think it might very well occur and if it does, it will happen, IMHO, whether we stay there ten months or ten years. The only difference will be the number of lives WE lose and the treasure WE lose and the allies WE lose and the world prestige WE lose and the time WE lose in our efforts to fight and defeat Islamic extremism. If Iraqis want democracy...or three democracies, they will have to fight for it. No one handed us our freedom. We should not spill one more drop of American blood in a misguided effort to hand them something that will be worthless to them without their having to fight for it in the first place.

[theHawk]

And again... how can a likelihood by an undeniable fact??? I do not agree that it is an undeniable fact that slaughter will occur. I think it might very well occur and if it does, it will happen, IMHO, whether we stay there ten months or ten years. The only difference will be the number of lives WE lose and the treasure WE lose and the allies WE lose and the world prestige WE lose and the time WE lose in our efforts to fight and defeat Islamic extremism. If Iraqis want democracy...or three democracies, they will have to fight for it. No one handed us our freedom. We should not spill one more drop of American blood in a misguided effort to hand them something that will be worthless to them without their having to fight for it in the first place.

I can agree with that. I didn't have a problem with starting the war in Iraq. And I still say it was a damned good thing to get Saddam out and dead rather than leaving him there. We accomplished all of the goals of Operation Iraqi Freedom. We've given them the chance to form their own democracy, whether or not they can sustain it is up to them.

[retiredman]

I can agree with that. I didn't have a problem with starting the war in Iraq. And I still say it was a damned good thing to get Saddam out and dead rather than leaving him there. We accomplished all of the goals of Operation Iraqi Freedom. We've given them the chance to form their own democracy, whether or not they can sustain it is up to them.

thank you for that.

[LuvRPgrl]

thank you for that.

HA ! He really didnt even back anything you said in your post.

As for GLOCK and your CLAIM he is dodging your question, the premise of your question is false, therefore it cant be answered.

[retiredman]

HA ! He really didnt even back anything you said in your post.

As for GLOCK and your CLAIM he is dodging your question, the premise of your question is false, therefore it cant be answered.

so..when he said "I can agree with that"...you think i meant that he DIDN'T back the quote he posted????

What the fuck do you think that:
"We've given them the chance to form their own democracy, whether or not they can sustain it is up to them".
means???

The premise is not false at all...you all just refuse to discuss how long you will beat the dead horse of a Iraqi multicultural pipedream. You have refused to acknowledge that you might be wrong and the Iraqis might never WANT to have a big group hug and sing Kumbaya no matter how many years we spend teaching them the words.

[Yurt]

fuck fuck fuck

desperation is clear when people must resort to TYPING the word fuck over and over

[retiredman]

fuck fuck fuck

desperation is clear when people must resort to TYPING the word fuck over and over

oh... the polite squad has shown up. how cute. how droll. Where exactly am I showing "desperation", counselor?

[glockmail]

the president is the captain of the ship of state. He sets the course. I disagree with the course. I feel as if he is heading the ship of state onto the rocks and shoals. He has an able crew who is keeping the various systems of that ship operating correctly, but the course is wrong. The war in Iraq is not merely about a small foreign country, it is indicative of the failed direction of this president. As a patriot, I will speak loudly and try to get the captain removed from his command prior to the ship running aground. I will try to get the captain to slow his speed to further delay what I see as an impending collision.

Your opinion about the democrats is certainly yours to have...but nothing they have done has been anything that is not sanctioned and authorized by the constitution. To call them traitors for disagreeing with the president is, itself morally treasonable and servile.

And again... how can a likelihood by an undeniable fact??? I do not agree that it is an undeniable fact that slaughter will occur. I think it might very well occur and if it does, it will happen, IMHO, whether we stay there ten months or ten years. The only difference will be the number of lives WE lose and the treasure WE lose and the allies WE lose and the world prestige WE lose and the time WE lose in our efforts to fight and defeat Islamic extremism. If Iraqis want democracy...or three democracies, they will have to fight for it. No one handed us our freedom. We should not spill one more drop of American blood in a misguided effort to hand them something that will be worthless to them without their having to fight for it in the first place.

I’m really losing patience with your ridiculous analogies. First a bus, then gravity, now a boat. They are silly and serve no purpose. Stick to reality.

As I said previously, the Democrats have given aid and comfort to our enemy, and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi confirms that. That’s treason and evidence of it. I have no problem with political discourse but this has gone well past Constitutional authority and congressional privilege.

Stop pretending that you don’t know how to read. I’ll state it a third time: it is an undeniable fact that our immediate withdrawal from Iraq is likely to result in the slaughter of millions of innocent people. You have stated twice now that you agree with that assessment, so stop trying to play semantic games.

I’ll ask you a third time: Why would the Democrats advocate that?

[retiredman]

I’m really losing patience with your ridiculous analogies. First a bus, then gravity, now a boat. They are silly and serve no purpose. Stick to reality.

As I said previously, the Democrats have given aid and comfort to our enemy, and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi confirms that. That’s treason and evidence of it. I have no problem with political discourse but this has gone well past Constitutional authority and congressional privilege.

Stop pretending that you don’t know how to read. I’ll state it a third time: it is an undeniable fact that our immediate withdrawal from Iraq is likely to result in the slaughter of millions of innocent people. You have stated twice now that you agree with that assessment, so stop trying to play semantic games.

I’ll ask you a third time: Why would the Democrats advocate that?

speech is not comfort to the enemy. grow up....and quit running away from valid analogies just because the subject matter is uncomfortable to you.

Re: your question: I "advocate" nothing of the sort.

semantics? How can you claim that a likelihood can be an undeniable fact.

It is an undeniable fact that it may rain tomorrow. How stupid a grammatical construct is that????

And when will you quit running away from my points and show some balls and answer one once in a while?

Iraqis are grown ups. They do not need us to hold their hand for the next decade. Either they want democracy or they don't. If they don't...it ain't MY problem... it ain't America's problem.

Why would republicans advocate spending American treasure and spilling American blood for an undetermined amount of time on the unfounded hunch that sunnis and shiites in Iraq would decide that THIS century might be a good one to stop hating one another?