McCain or Obama? Obama or McCain?

[Hagbard Celine]

If your opening post was sincere...(I'm suspect about that)...your post reveals to me that you are indeed an Obomite at heart....you do agree with the liberal social agenda and its just alittle more important to you than you want to let on...
So you will go the Obama route....

You should keep in mind that he has absolutely no experience to be chief exec. of the US ...most Mayors of decent size cities have more experience than him....

He also has no credentials that would lead anyone to believe that he knows or identifies with the military and can fill the role of CIC to the degree necessary.......

Even his legislative experience is somewhat suspect....voting present more often than not is not showing adequate leadership at all....

Hes spent most of his Senate time on the road campaigning instead of attending to the duties of being a Senator....

From his campaigning, I find I cannot agree with his social agenda either....I believe him to be even further left than Hillary, and I could not condone her positions on social issues...and she comes across as moderate compared to Obama....I thought I could at least hold my nose and vote for her if worse came to worse.....

His explanations about Rev. Wright were akin to outright lies...saying what he thought was necessary at any given time.....I can't believe Wright just recently went off the deep end...and to subject your children to that kind of anti-American, hate-filled bigotry is unforgivable....and the insane rants of that priest was just more nails in Obama political coffin....

For all of these reasons, he does not merit my trust or my vote.

Good points all. And yes, I am being sincere. I also agree that Obama isn't really qualified. It's always better imo if presidents have had military experience--it just seems natural. But keep in mind that Abraham Lincoln and FDR--two of the nation's most respected wartime leaders ever--had no military experience, so that's not really an issue with me. However, it is one of McCain's strengths imo.
I don't really see the whole church thing as too big of a deal. Honestly I don't think Obama's religious beliefs influence his professional life very much.

[theHawk]

I don't really understand how anyone could be considering both candidates.
Either you're a shitbag liberal who does not object to socialism and marxism, and doesn't care that Obama thinks its OK for local governments to restrict constitutional rights, or you have a little bit of common sense and reject socialism and any attack on the constitution.
I also think its a cop out for anyone to say they'd vote for Obama because he is a great speaker and can restore our image to the rest of the world. Its just an attempt by the liberals and media to try to get people to ignore his voting record and his policies.
Then there is his proposed liberal foreign policy. Regardless of what he is promosing, Obama is not going to pull us out of Iraq entirely. Historically liberal foreign policy has been disastrous for our country. Clinton's apathetic approach to radical Islam leading to 9/11, Carter's mess with Iran, Kennedy's blunders like the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, and of course bringing the country to the verge of nuclear annihilation.

[Silver]

Good points all. And yes, I am being sincere. I also agree that Obama isn't really qualified. It's always better imo if presidents have had military experience--it just seems natural. But keep in mind that Abraham Lincoln and FDR--two of the nation's most respected wartime leaders ever--had no military experience, so that's not really an issue with me. However, it is one of McCain's strengths imo.
I don't really see the whole church thing as too big of a deal. Honestly I don't think Obama's religious beliefs influence his professional life very much.

Well, I didn't expressly say Obama needed to have served in the military, but he has nothing in his past that would lead one to think of him as a leader in any capacity....(other than being a savvy politician)
No bills ... no speeches...no nothing to give us a clue.....
You just don't vote for him to be the President of US and hope for the best....

And ..I don't question his religious beliefs either.....the rants of Rev. Wright and that lunatic priest have nothing to do with religious beliefs....they were political and anti-American, with a good dose of hate-filled anti-white innuendo...
making claims that the US gov. was killing blacks with HIV is over the top....

Even Oprah couldn't stay in that congregation....whats that reveal about Obama's character.....?

[Hagbard Celine]

I don't really understand how anyone could be considering both candidates.
Either you're a shitbag liberal who does not object to socialism and marxism, and doesn't care that Obama thinks its OK for local governments to restrict constitutional rights, or you have a little bit of common sense and reject socialism and any attack on the constitution.
I also think its a cop out for anyone to say they'd vote for Obama because he is a great speaker and can restore our image to the rest of the world. Its just an attempt by the liberals and media to try to get people to ignore his voting record and his policies.
Then there is his proposed liberal foreign policy. Regardless of what he is promosing, Obama is not going to pull us out of Iraq entirely. Historically liberal foreign policy has been disastrous for our country. Clinton's apathetic approach to radical Islam leading to 9/11, Carter's mess with Iran, Kennedy's blunders like the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, and of course bringing the country to the verge of nuclear annihilation.

Clinton's policies aren't what caused 9/11 man. Osama Bin Laden began his vendetta against the US during the first Gulf War when G. Bush Sr. used Saudi Arabia as his staging ground for pushing Saddam's forces back into Iraq. Bin Laden vowed vengeance against us for setting foot on and "soiling" Saudi soil and for interfering in Arab affairs. There was nothing that could've been done to prevent 9/11. Even if someone had gotten suspicious about one of the hijackers when they were taking their flying lessons, it would've taken an in-depth investigation by federal authorities to even find his links to Al Qaeda. And that would only be one of them. They took their lessons at different facilities. We didn't even have the infrastructure to investigate them until after 9/11 and the homeland sec. dept. was set up.
I've never heard the "speaker" argument for Obama and I agree it's lame.
And for the record, I don't object to socialist programs being used in gov't. We already have social security, government pensions, medicare, etc. These policies have problems because conservatives here won't commit to them so they always end up being half-assed and either fail or don't work properly. Socialist programs work very well in almost all of Europe and select Asian nations--and guess what, most of them have capitalist economies. I don't know why you can't look at those examples where these programs work and not come to the conclusion that they could work here.

[Trigg]

If your opening post was sincere...(I'm suspect about that)...your post reveals to me that you are indeed an Obomite at heart....you do agree with the liberal social agenda and its just alittle more important to you than you want to let on...
So you will go the Obama route....

You should keep in mind that he has absolutely no experience to be chief exec. of the US ...most Mayors of decent size cities have more experience than him....

He also has no credentials that would lead anyone to believe that he knows or identifies with the military and can fill the role of CIC to the degree necessary.......

Even his legislative experience is somewhat suspect....voting present more often than not is not showing adequate leadership at all....

Hes spent most of his Senate time on the road campaigning instead of attending to the duties of being a Senator....

From his campaigning, I find I cannot agree with his social agenda either....I believe him to be even further left than Hillary, and I could not condone her positions on social issues...and she comes across as moderate compared to Obama....I thought I could at least hold my nose and vote for her if worse came to worse.....

His explanations about Rev. Wright were akin to outright lies...saying what he thought was necessary at any given time.....I can't believe Wright just recently went off the deep end...and to subject your children to that kind of anti-American, hate-filled bigotry is unforgivable....and the insane rants of that priest was just more nails in Obama political coffin....

For all of these reasons, he does not merit my trust or my vote.

You beat me to it. I would say the bolded parts are my biggest problem with Obama.

As far as McCain. I don't like his stance on illegal immigration, I believe he is still in favor of amnesty which has been proven to encourage more illegals to sneak into the country.

As far as lobbyists Obama doesn't have FEDERAL lobbyists on his campain, he does have state lobbyists which IMO are the same thing. Why is one better than the other????? McCain has fired ALL lobbyists on his campain and challenged Obama to do the same.

[Silver]

Clinton's policies aren't what caused 9/11 man. Osama Bin Laden began his vendetta against the US during the first Gulf War when G. Bush Sr. used Saudi Arabia as his staging ground for pushing Saddam's forces back into Iraq. Bin Laden vowed vengeance against us for setting foot on and "soiling" Saudi soil and for interfering in Arab affairs. There was nothing that could've been done to prevent 9/11. Even if someone had gotten suspicious about one of the hijackers when they were taking their flying lessons, it would've taken an in-depth investigation by federal authorities to even find his links to Al Qaeda. And that would only be one of them. They took their lessons at different facilities. We didn't even have the infrastructure to investigate them until after 9/11 and the homeland sec. dept. was set up.


Excellent....absolutely excellent and absolutely the truth....
I dare say you are the first, the very first, left leaning poster I've ever seen to understand those FACTS you've posted.....kudos...


I've never heard the "speaker" argument for Obama and I agree it's lame.
And for the record, I don't object to socialist programs being used in gov't. We already have social security, government pensions, medicare, etc. These policies have problems because conservatives here won't commit to them so they always end up being half-assed and either fail or don't work properly. Socialist programs work very well in almost all of Europe and select Asian nations--and guess what, most of them have capitalist economies. I don't know why you can't look at those examples where these programs work and not come to the conclusion that they could work here.

Most, if not all, what you might refer to as a "socialist" program really is not...
Pensions? Soc. Sec...?

We have programs to address a distinct group of people that either cannot care for themselves due to some personal problem or our older citizens that need special care and certainly deserve it from their government....

These are not 'socialist' at all....
but....
Some have evolved into ... and lean to socialism more than they did at their conception due to Democratic influence and tinkering....

[Hagbard Celine]

Most, if not all, what you might refer to as a "socialist" program really is not...
Pensions? Soc. Sec...?

We have programs to address a distinct group of people that either cannot care for themselves due to some personal problem or our older citizens that need special care and certainly deserve it from their government....

These are not 'socialist' at all....
but....
Some have evolved into ... and lean to socialism more than they did at their conception due to Democratic influence and tinkering....

Thanks? I saw a PBS special on Bush Sr.'s presidency and it went over all that business about Osama and the Gulf War. Bush Sr. was a great president--the reason he didn't get re-elected is because he was arrogant about having to campaign again and he ended-up being pretty out of touch with voters at the end of his term. He thought his achievements (and they were great) would stand on their own, but he misjudged the fickle and forgetful nature of the American public. That, plus the Clinton political machine was pretty much unstoppable.
And I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying about our social programs, but you have to admit that they're still "social" programs--i.e. "socialist" programs. We don't have a purely capitalist system here and my main point is that true socialist programs like universal healthcare work really well in other countries and those countries haven't sacrificed their capitalist marketplaces to get it. My point is that could be us, but we're so concerned with bickering with each other over wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage that it gets pushed under the rug and when it does get brought up again some yahoo shouts "socialism!" and everybody pretends like he has a point. It's really frustrating if you ask me.

[theHawk]

Clinton's policies aren't what caused 9/11 man. Osama Bin Laden began his vendetta against the US during the first Gulf War when G. Bush Sr. used Saudi Arabia as his staging ground for pushing Saddam's forces back into Iraq. Bin Laden vowed vengeance against us for setting foot on and "soiling" Saudi soil and for interfering in Arab affairs. There was nothing that could've been done to prevent 9/11. Even if someone had gotten suspicious about one of the hijackers when they were taking their flying lessons, it would've taken an in-depth investigation by federal authorities to even find his links to Al Qaeda. And that would only be one of them. They took their lessons at different facilities. We didn't even have the infrastructure to investigate them until after 9/11 and the homeland sec. dept. was set up.

Clinton could of done alot to prevent 9/11. His blantant disregard and cowardice after multiple attacks against US targets across the globe during his Presidency went unanswered. Osama himself said that the inaction of the US in response to those attacks emboldened him and his followers to start planning major attacks in the US.

I've never heard the "speaker" argument for Obama and I agree it's lame.
And for the record, I don't object to socialist programs being used in gov't. We already have social security, government pensions, medicare, etc. These policies have problems because conservatives here won't commit to them so they always end up being half-assed and either fail or don't work properly. Socialist programs work very well in almost all of Europe and select Asian nations--and guess what, most of them have capitalist economies. I don't know why you can't look at those examples where these programs work and not come to the conclusion that they could work here.

How are we only commiting to these socialist programs "half-assed"? We're being taxed in huge amounts to support these broken systems. The problem is they are managed by the government and they are mandatory. If they were privatized and voluntary I think they'd be fine programs. And I am sorry if I can't look at Euro countries that have socialist programs because they are very small countries with usually just a few large cities, whereas we are almost an entire continent with a huge amount of immigrants (legal and illegal). I am not totally against social programs, but I think they are better done at the state level.

[Hagbard Celine]

Clinton could of done alot to prevent 9/11. His blantant disregard and cowardice after multiple attacks against US targets across the globe during his Presidency went unanswered. Osama himself said that the inaction of the US in response to those attacks emboldened him and his followers to start planning major attacks in the US.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here man. You can make a case that Bush dropped the ball just as much as Clinton supposedly did. You remember the "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" memo that sat on Bush's desk for the first year of his presidency? The truth is that nobody could have stopped 911 from happening unless God himself had reached down and laid it out piece by piece for some CIA guy to see it. The awful truth that we have to acknowledge is that anybody can attack us at any time if they are secretive and determined enough to do so and it's nobody's fault, it's just the human condition.

[gabosaurus]

Hanoi John McCain = continuation of the War in Iraq; escalation of hostilities with other Middle East nations; increased risk of a major terrorist attack, due to his harsh views; continued pandering to illegal aliens; increased visibility by special interest groups.
If you have forgiven Jane Fonda, vote for McCain.

[stephanie]

typical liberal-blaming their own country for the terrorist attacking us..

Funny we were attacted even when Democrats were Presidents..How the hell did that happen?

Don't Forget-vote the boy wonder in and all will be GREAT WITH THE WHOLE WORLD...yeehaaaaaaaa

[gabosaurus]

The United States was attacked by a foreign adversary. Who was not only never punished, but pretty much disregarded by our elected leader.
Instead, our leader used the attack as an excuse to dispose of a hated rival, who had nothing at all to do with the attack.
This was the policy of G.W. Bush. This is what you will continue to get with Hanoi John McCain.
Unless he decides to collaborate with the terrorists.

[Silver]

Koolade kickin' in pretty good there Gabber....

Actually, your post is too silly and stupid to warrant a reply...if you believe what you post, you're already a lost cause and rational debate is lost on you....

Shows you definitely do swallow....

[manu1959]

The United States was attacked by a foreign adversary. Who was not only never punished, but pretty much disregarded by our elected leader.
Instead, our leader used the attack as an excuse to dispose of a hated rival, who had nothing at all to do with the attack.
This was the policy of G.W. Bush. This is what you will continue to get with Hanoi John McCain.
Unless he decides to collaborate with the terrorists.

i actually hope obama wins just so i can see your reaction when he can't pull the troops out after he gets his first national security briefing.....

[midcan5]

I really am open-minded about the candidates. You've said yourself that McCain is a "liberal" republican. He's got years of experience. A military background. And some good ideas. I could definately see myself voting for him if Obama loses all the debates and ends up being an empty suit.

McCain was liberal until he had to sell his soul to the republican church. It would be curious to see how he operates as prez, as once in, he can throw out the temporary pass. Only his war stance bothers me, we are not a nation who imposes its will on another sovereign nation just because they are different.