The Confederate Flag

[Yurt]

would you "ban" sexually explicit T shirts from being worn by grade schools students at a public school? yes or no?

when you can answer the question i posed about the differences? when can you admit you did in fact talk about banning when you said you didn't?

when you answer the difference question, you will have answered your question. now, can you do that?

[DannyR]

if you have no right to be offended, they why should they stop simply because you asked....you are disrespecting them because you have no right to be offended and yet you ask them to stop.

Very simple. People do things all the time that give offense, but don't realize it. A couple in the midst of a passionate kiss might not realize they are being quite so affectionate, as they have other things on their mind. A boy playing his rap music loudly might actually turn it down if you ask him to.

My "I'd tap that" joke in a different thread being a perfect example.

Should I have ignored the request not to say such things? Was the act of them asking me to not tell such jokes a disrespect of me as you say? I think not.

Its possible raising the battle flag of the confederacy was done without insult being intended (thats a very generous way of looking at it in my opinion). But upon being told it was no longer such a pure symbol of southern pride, but was tainted by a multitude of hateful acts, the real southern gentleman would respectfully put that symbol away and use another in its place that did not hold such hurtful memories.

[Yurt]

Very simple. People do things all the time that give offense, but don't realize it. A couple in the midst of a passionate kiss might not realize they are being quite so affectionate, as they have other things on their mind. A boy playing his rap music loudly might actually turn it down if you ask him to.

My "I'd tap that" joke in a different thread being a perfect example.

Should I have ignored the request not to say such things? Was the act of them asking me to not tell such jokes a disrespect of me as you say? I think not.

Its possible raising the battle flag of the confederacy was done without insult being intended (thats a very generous way of looking at it in my opinion). But upon being told it was no longer such a pure symbol of southern pride, but was tainted by a multitude of hateful acts, the real southern gentleman would respectfully put that symbol away and use another in its place that did not hold such hurtful memories.

you again take the stance that the "southern gentleman" is the one causing the harm. what if the person who misunderstands the flag is wrong? what if a muslim, an american citizen, finds christian church bells offensive...would you support a "stop" (not a ban i guess) on that?

now....what about the majority in a town that find islamic call to prayer offensive....because they find islam and islamic ideas hateful, a pure symbol of hate towards non-muslilms, would you support a "stop" to that, if i asked?

afterall, what is the polite thing to do....

[Mugged Liberal]

when you can answer the question i posed about the differences? when can you admit you did in fact talk about banning when you said you didn't?

when you answer the difference question, you will have answered your question. now, can you do that?

Some people cannot talk to each other reasonably. It always degenerates into a “I did not” “Yes you did” exchange. That’s what should be banned. The personal dispute which results ruins every discussion.

[Immanuel]

Some people cannot talk to each other reasonably. It always degenerates into a “I did not” “Yes you did” exchange. That’s what should be banned. The personal dispute which results ruins every discussion.

Amen! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Immie

[Yurt]

Some people cannot talk to each other reasonably. It always degenerates into a “I did not” “Yes you did” exchange. That’s what should be banned. The personal dispute which results ruins every discussion.

fine, ban me....

whiner

[Immanuel]

fine, ban me....

whiner

Oh if only I could!

Immie

[DannyR]

what if the person who misunderstands the flag is wrong?

Any symbol has multiple meanings. As I mentioned before, even the Nazi symbol has meanings associated with it other than the one its known for today. And what a symbol means is open to interpretation obviously. But this is why people looked at why the flag was raised anew and who did it, and the actions of those who used it.

The excuse is that the flag was raised as a symbol of southern pride. Problem with that excuse is that the flag used at the time was already a symbol of that, a confederate emblem that had already been flying for 75 years.

The legislature actions the year the Georgia flag was changed were dominated by laws meant to fight desegregation. One is judged by the company one keeps, and this law had very poor company. It was part of a larger set of laws passed aimed at fighting desegregation.

And of course this isn't just a couple of blacks who think the flag is wrong. A rather large majority of them didn't want it. When a minority complains its rights are infringed, believing in the honest intentions of the majority who is oppressing them just doesn't hold much value. Perhaps the oppression isn't intentional, but again, we are back to the point that if someone claims to be insulted, a gentlemen will stop the actions out of respect.

And finally of course is that a state flag is a symbol of ALL the state, and not just a portion of it. As such, it should be a symbol all the state wants. That alone in my opinion justifies restoring the flag to its original symbol and removing the battle emblem.

So perhaps they are wrong... but I don't think so for the Georgia case.

[Yurt]

Any symbol has multiple meanings. As I mentioned before, even the Nazi symbol has meanings associated with it other than the one its known for today. And what a symbol means is open to interpretation obviously. But this is why people looked at why the flag was raised anew and who did it, and the actions of those who used it.

The excuse is that the flag was raised as a symbol of southern pride. Problem with that excuse is that the flag used at the time was already a symbol of that, a confederate emblem that had already been flying for 75 years.

The legislature actions the year the Georgia flag was changed were dominated by laws meant to fight desegregation. One is judged by the company one keeps, and this law had very poor company. It was part of a larger set of laws passed aimed at fighting desegregation.

And of course this isn't just a couple of blacks who think the flag is wrong. A rather large majority of them didn't want it. When a minority complains its rights are infringed, believing in the honest intentions of the majority who is oppressing them just doesn't hold much value. Perhaps the oppression isn't intentional, but again, we are back to the point that if someone claims to be insulted, a gentlemen will stop the actions out of respect.

And finally of course is that a state flag is a symbol of ALL the state, and not just a portion of it. As such, it should be a symbol all the state wants. That alone in my opinion justifies restoring the flag to its original symbol and removing the battle emblem.

So perhaps they are wrong... but I don't think so in this case.

good post, though i disagree.

1. i do not understand how you can logically see that the swastika is not solely about nazis and yet you say that the dixie flag is only an excuse and is racist when you know that not all who believe in the flag are racist. seems contradictory.

2. the majority is not always right. america protects minority rights, our government was founded on protecting the minority from the tryanny of the majority. so i do not understand your reliance on stopping something merely because a majority find it offensive or simply because you ask someone to stop...further, you have admitted that you have no right to be offended. where then does your right to ask them to stop come from?

3. i'm right, you wrong.

[DannyR]

1. i do not understand how you can logically see that the swastika is not solely about nazis and yet you say that the dixie flag is only an excuse and is racist when you know that not all who believe in the flag are racist. seems contradictory.

I never said the battle flag is always racist. I'm sure people fly it for southern pride. The excuse however comes into play when they refuse to admit that its a tainted symbol or try to tell other people how to feel about it.

If I put a swastika in front of my house and tried to convince everyone that it was a common christian cross or hindu symbol of hope you'd say that was a lame excuse as well. And good luck if I actually tried to convince a jewish person that their objection to my using it was just wrong because I wasn't using it the ways the nazi's did. *lol* That is as laughable as the scene in Clerks 2 where he tries to "take back" the porch-monkey insult.

2. the majority is not always right. america protects minority rights, our government was founded on protecting the minority from the tryanny of the majority. so i do not understand your reliance on stopping something merely because a majority find it offensive or simply because you ask someone to stop...further, you have admitted that you have no right to be offended. where then does your right to ask them to stop come from?

I never said the majority is always right. In fact, when it comes to civil rights, the opposite has more often been true. The majority not being right is how the battle flag got put up in the first place. It was an attempt to trample the spirit of the minority.

Its anyone's right to ask someone to stop something. If they do or not depends on how much that person values the other. I find it to be a good sign and natural progression that the hatred of the 1950's and 60's has finally been replaced and the flag taken down, as the respect of the white majority for their black brethren has increased over the years.

As for one's right to be offended... there is also a difference between what one does in private versus what is done as a symbol for the public as a while. A state flag isn't the same as putting the flag in the window of your pickup truck. One is a symbol that supposedly represents the entire state, and citizens who object to that symbol have the right to make that objection known. The other is a symbol of what that specific individual believes. I might object to it, but if he doesn't care, I don't have the right to force him to take it down.

Ultimately the state flag issue isn't a civil right issue, which is why it was changed by legislative action and somewhat by vote. As such, I think the fact that people respected the opinions of those who said it was a tainted symbol is why it was taken down. If that respect didn't exist, it would still be flying.

3. i'm right, you wrong.

Back at you, although I'm not certain what your actual opinion on the issue is. You've pretty much just argued against mine. Is it your opinion that the battle flag has no association with racism at all?

[Yurt]

my opinion:

sure, it is associated with racism. just like the swastika though, it doesn't mean it is racist as you said.

so, unless it is a sign solely for racism, then i support the 1st amendment right to display it. i support the right to display for southern pride. if someone is offended because some people have misused the symbol, that does not in anyway give them a right to ask or demand that all people stop using the symbol.

[DannyR]

i support the 1st amendment right to display it. i support the right to display for southern pride. if someone is offended because some people have misused the symbol, that does not in anyway give them a right to ask or demand that all people stop using the symbol.

Sounds like we are in agreement then on the basics.

I wouldn't tell someone to repaint the General Lee because it has the battle emblem on its roof. You can ask if you want, but here is where one's right to not be offended comes into play. What someone does in relative privacy doesn't directly impact your life. Simply seeing a car drive down the road doesn't change who you are.

Someone flies the flag at a KKK rally marching down main street, I'd be correct in chastising them though in my opinion. Sure it doesn't directly impact my life, but they are making a political statement, and I've got the right to respond in kind. Again though, nobody is saying they don't have the right to fly the flag. But likewise you have the right to protest it.

Wanting the state flag changed is different from both cases, as it is a symbol of the entire state, giving everyone of that state the right to have a voice in what it should be.

[Yurt]

i edit my ealier post to say:

even if a racist purpose, i support the free speech right to say it or display it.

danny,

i don't think we agree on the basics. can you tell me why you think we do? because i really don't see it.

[DannyR]

I support the 1st amendment right to display it as well. I've never suggested display of the flag should be banned or forcibly stopped. I'd certainly not force someone to take down a flag they put up on their own property. I just said its not always appropriate to wave it, and out of respect you sometimes shouldn't. No different than telling jokes in inappropriate settings.

I have no problem displaying it for southern pride - in an appropriate setting. Confederate memorials, confederate celebrations, General Lee, Stone Mountain park, etc. are the ideal setting. You display it at your house or in the back of your truck is fine too, but that doesn't mean you are proof from someone thinking you are a redneck racist, because ultimately while you might think it represents southern pride, others are equally correct in thinking it might mean something else. They obviously don't have the right to take your flag down, but they certainly can tell you what they think. And its up to you if you respect that person enough to want to not offend them, or don't give a damn.

But private use is not the same as using the image as a State symbol and in that regard this isn't a 1st amendment topic. I get the feeling you are not separating the two issues, or you see my statements about the appropriateness of the symbol used on the flag as somehow being my stance when it comes to private use.

[DragonStryk72]

You moved off target. What do the reasons why the civil war was fought have to do with this issue?

Most blacks don't care about other confederate symbols. The change of Georgia's flag to the pre-1956 flag was generally met with approval, and its still a Confederate based flag. So obviously not all things confederate are met with the same response.

Its the specific battle flag that has become the tainted image. Its the flag flow by racists and segregationalists. NOT the USA flag, NOT other confederate flags.

Yes, you should do something. You should stop the actions that are offending them out of respect! They got offended BECAUSE of what people did... raising the Confederate Battle flag to spite them.

You mean, the issues that formed the Confederacy have nothing to do with the Confederate flag? Just as our current flag must have nothing to do with us, obviously.