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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    I credit you with having enough intelligence to know that any attempt at theodicy over the book of Deuteronomy is truly a lost cause, so you won't even try.
    and I credit you with understanding that you lack sufficient knowledge of the scriptures to come up with an example that you can defend.....you are wise to avoid my challenge....

    The denial of the existence of God, the denial of a single privileged source of moral authority, opens up the question of how we are then to determine right and wrong. This is a very involved, very complex question, but it is really a matter for its own thread. My main point here, is that God, as depicted in the sacred books of Christianity, is, by reason, not the kind of being that can wield moral authority over us.

    But to give a quick sketch of how it is that God's commands can violate "my" moral authority (an authority which I indeed wield, but only in concert with my peers), I'll say this: I regard myself as having original moral prerogatives, otherwise known as 'rights,' as a consequence of the kind of being that I am - namely, a rational-moral agent. Now, as a rational-moral agent, I do not exist in a vaccuum; I am embedded in a community of peers, all of us morally equal to one another because we all possess this same rational-moral free nature. This original equality is the basis for our making claims against our peers, when they exercise their freedom in ways that are detrimental to the prerogative of myself or others to equal freedom - to their rights, in other words.

    To say that we are all originally morally equal, is not of course to say that we are all (or should be) equal in our material fortunes. Some of us, by luck and some measure of effort, are able to exercise power over others. But this power is never without limit; it must always respect the essential equal rights, and consequent equal dignity, of all. When that does not happen, when the powerful try to lord it over the rest of us, we are entitled (and indeed, our Founders would say that we are obligated) to challenge that abused authority, in word and in deed.

    I in my very rights, in my very nature as a rational-moral being, have the power and prerogative to judge that others are not using their freedom to abuse others. When I see that this is happening, I can exercise the authority, in the name of our common rational-moral nature, to call the powerful to account. I of course will do so at physical risk; but I have that right, all the same. Again, the cardinal error of monotheism, found again and again in the texts of all the Semitic faiths, is to mistake power for righteousness.

    It does not matter that our being is wholly dependent upon the whim of a Creator. If by nature we are truly free, and not slaves, then we have the same basic rights and dignity as the Creator itself. At some time in the future, we may develop and android which, when we switch it on, enjoys feeling and has free will. We may hold in our hand a remote control that would serve as the "off" switch for that new intelligent being; but the mere fact that we made it, would never justify us in turning the android off, or in making it a slave to serve us.
    yet what you lack, and what prevents you from being morally superior to an omniscient deity is total knowledge of ALL of the consequences of an action.....

    an exercise in ethics often asks the question, "if you had the ability to kill Adolph Hitler when he was an infant would you do so".....we look at what Hitler did and we say yes.....yet, if there had been no Hitler, no WW2, what other consequences might there have been.....might that have prevented the American Civil Rights movement, for example....would America have gone the way of South Africa and practiced apartheid until the 1980s......we cannot know what the results of all our possible acts might be.....an omniscient deity would.......
    ...full immersion.....

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    You're obviously arguing in a circle.
    no, it just seems that way because your head is spinning....

    You can't now turn around and appeal to the "alleged superior knowledge and understanding of an omniscient deity" - whose very existence and character has not been established
    again, I am not arguing against some Pericles imagined pseudo Christianity.....for the purpose of this debate you are stuck with what Christianity teaches about deity......
    ...full immersion.....

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    it is one of righteous defiance at his unjust treatment, and his calling upon God/giving God an opportunity to justify his treatment of Job...
    but of course.....his treatment was admittedly unjust.....the opening passages make that clear....
    ...full immersion.....

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    it is another question whether we are beholden to abject obedience before that being.
    but God doesn't even want "abject obedience"....he wants love....


    No. In contrast to the faithful, I do not take something to be true, without adequate, independently verifiable, evidence.
    if you are in fact an atheist, you do.....you take it as "true" that God does not exist....you do that without evidence.....
    ...full immersion.....

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