Irrefutable Proof of Evolution

[PostmodernProphet]

a short video

do we have the facepalm icon?.....

[Noir]

????....so, one possible explanation of why God created the way he did is that it was the easiest way to achieve the results that he wanted to achieve (a simple nudge of one chromosome pair)......another is that he desired to deceive the poor atheists so they wouldn't fall in to the trap of believing in him.....

Occam's Razor, anyone?.....

But if the chromosomes had of stayed separate there would of been no change, other that our chromosome count.

Think of it as a train carriage. with two people sat in opposite seats, if one of them moves to occupy a seat beside another on nothing changes, they will still both arrive at their destination at the same time to go and do whatever they want to.
However, once you open the door to natural chromosomal fusion, you open the door to evolution

As for Occams Razor, i had not heard of it before so i looked it up, it is

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), is the meta-theoretical principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem) and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

The simplest solution is usually the correct one, now are you trying to tell me that a God is the simplest solution you can think of?

You are arguing as predicted, 'The creator did it' if it looks like evolution 'the creator wanted it to be the way it was' and no matter what you apply that to, like the 3rd area of the video ERV's, you can say the same, the creator just wanted it to be that way, to look like evolution, but there is no evolution.

Let me put your logic to another scientific theory, that of Gravity. Imagine there is another user on the board and they say 'Gravity is not caused my mass creating warps in space time, but by my god pushing down on everything with varying pressures' No matter what scientific proof you presented to him showing that the theory of space time warp explains everything perfectly without the need for divine interference, and that all experiments go as predicted with the model, and they said 'Yes, but thats the way my god wants it to look, the more evidence you find, the clearer it is to me that it is my god that is at work'. How exactly would you argue with an idiot like that?

Now compare the theory of gravity and evolution, and your answers and his. You're only defence to whatever science finds is 'that's what the creator wanted' quite silly, no?

[PostmodernProphet]

The simplest solution is usually the correct one, now are you trying to tell me that a God is the simplest solution you can think of?

one intentional act versus a multitude of coincidental fortuitous random events?......yes.....

[PostmodernProphet]

However, once you open the door to natural chromosomal fusion, you open the door to evolution

if you start with the assumption it was a random spontaneous event you end with the conclusion it was a random spontaneous event.......no doors were opened no conclusions were reached.....you still have the same frame of mind you started with.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Now compare the theory of gravity and evolution, and your answers and his. You're only defence to whatever science finds is 'that's what the creator wanted' quite silly, no?

not at all....actually, I find "shit just happens the way it happens" to be both unscientific and silly......

[PostmodernProphet]

I am still waiting for something that will show fused chromosomes disprove creation.....I have to be in court all afternoon.....perhaps tonight I will accept your concession and take a look at the third argument.....

[Noir]

one intentional act versus a multitude of coincidental fortuitous random events?......yes.....

On intentional act from an impossibly complex creature that is, there is nothing simple about that.

if you start with the assumption it was a random spontaneous event you end with the conclusion it was a random spontaneous event.......no doors were opened no conclusions were reached.....you still have the same frame of mind you started with.....

Do you accept that the chromosomes have been fused? Or do you deny that?

not at all....actually, I find "shit just happens the way it happens" to be both unscientific and silly......

But thats the thing shit does not just happen, there is order to it, that is why there is the word 'selection' in 'natural selection'
So tell me, do you believe that god is putting pressure on everything, giving meaning the mass of a body experiences gravity, or do you believe in the scientific theory that mass causes a curve in space time?

I am still waiting for something that will show fused chromosomes disprove creation.....I have to be in court all afternoon.....perhaps tonight I will accept your concession and take a look at the third argument.....

I am not trying to disprove creation, i am trying to prove evolution. I can understand it when people accept both god and evolution, i don't see how the two contradict eachother, however, many religions dislike evolution and teach that its either a creator or evolution. Which makes it much easier for atheist, because you can prove evolution scientifically as you can Gravity and other facts of nature.

You are the one that seems to think that God and Evolution can not co-exist, why is that?

[PostmodernProphet]

On intentional act from an impossibly complex creature that is, there is nothing simple about that.

1) why "impossibly complex"
2) why do you refer to him as a "creature" when he wasn't "created"....

Do you accept that the chromosomes have been fused? Or do you deny that?

haven't you presented scientific evidence of it?.....are you tipping me off that the video's claim is unsupported by scientific evidence?.....after all, I am taking the word of the guy in the video, I haven't verified it myself.....

But thats the thing shit does not just happen, there is order to it, that is why there is the word 'selection' in 'natural selection'

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true under Darwinian evolution....external forces cause lines to die out, new ones to emerge....it is chaotic and random....if that is the way you are reading "selection" it is a misnomer.....under your approach it is nothing more than the roll of a dice.....some nocturnal carnivore can't sleep, heads out a few minutes earlier than normal and a superior race of daytime dwellers becomes extinct in a single mouthful.......

So tell me, do you believe that god is putting pressure on everything, giving meaning the mass of a body experiences gravity, or do you believe in the scientific theory that mass causes a curve in space time?

????.....of course God is putting pressure on everything....by creating a universe in which gravity occurs naturally......

[PostmodernProphet]

I am not trying to disprove creation, i am trying to prove evolution. I can understand it when people accept both god and evolution, i don't see how the two contradict each other, however, many religions dislike evolution and teach that its either a creator or evolution. Which makes it much easier for atheist, because you can prove evolution scientifically as you can Gravity and other facts of nature.

You are the one that seems to think that God and Evolution can not co-exist, why is that?

I can't imagine where I got that impression...

Not only does it prove predictions made by evolution. It shows that if there is a Creator, then the creator has gone out of their way to make it look like evolution is happens, and yeah i wouldn't be too ashamed if i was being fooled by a god.

be that as it may you have made a transition in your argument.....the issue isn't whether God and evolution can co-exist, the issue is whether creation and evolution can co-exist....

see post #14, that understanding of evolution and creation can co exist.......see post #15....that understanding of evolution and creation cannot co-exist....

[Noir]

1) why "impossibly complex"

Something which is omnipotent is impossibly complex. Unless you are saying there can be creatures more complex than a god?

2) why do you refer to him as a "creature" when he wasn't "created"....

Everything that exists has to of been created at some point. Thats the problem with any God theory, all you can say is that the god has existed forever, and then you mock science, which is trying to find scientific answers to questions like where did everything come from.

haven't you presented scientific evidence of it?.....are you tipping me off that the video's claim is unsupported by scientific evidence?.....after all, I am taking the word of the guy in the video, I haven't verified it myself.....

Yes i have, i'm just making sure you believe the science. Good to see you accept that Chromosomes can fuse, creating new species. Thats a fundamental pillar of evolution.

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true under Darwinian evolution....external forces cause lines to die out, new ones to emerge....it is chaotic and random....if that is the way you are reading "selection" it is a misnomer.....under your approach it is nothing more than the roll of a dice.....some nocturnal carnivore can't sleep, heads out a few minutes earlier than normal and a superior race of daytime dwellers becomes extinct in a single mouthful.......

It is not chaotic and random. Yes the mutations are random, however, once a mutation occurs it will be put through the process of nature, the more useful the mutation, the more likely it will be passed on to successive generations. if you are finding that difficult to understand i have a multitude of videos explaining how wings and eyes have developed in different animals via natural selection. It also blows the wind out of the 'irreducibly complex' crowd, who assume everything must of suddenly worked all at once or it never would of worked.

????.....of course God is putting pressure on everything....by creating a universe in which gravity occurs naturally......

You are playing with words. The choice was gravity is naturally occurring when mass dents space time, or that god is choosing to 'lean a little' on every single particle, the more the mass the more he leans, meaning that whatever we measure it will look like the mass is causing a dent in space time, when really the mass has nothing to do with it, its just god.
So which is it to be? Mass, or god making it look like mass?

I can't imagine where I got that impression...

So you think that both God and evolution can co-exist? (Not just micro-evolution but macro-evolution aswell?)

be that as it may you have made a transition in your argument.....the issue isn't whether God and evolution can co-exist, the issue is whether creation and evolution can co-exist....

No i have not, look at the topic title, this thread was made to prove evolution, i don't care what that does to any God/Creator argument, its the religions that have made it a God/Creator argument by believing you can not have one with the other.
But, given you prefer the word creator to god, do you believe micro/macro evolution can exist with creation?

see post #14, that understanding of evolution and creation can co exist.......see post #15....that understanding of evolution and creation cannot co-exist....

Why not?
Does that mean if evolution in post 15 is proven that creation is disproven? (i do not think that is so, but if you think they can not co-exist i guess you do)

[PostmodernProphet]

Everything that exists has to of been created at some point.

what an absurd assumption....

Yes i have, i'm just making sure you believe the science. Good to see you accept that Chromosomes can fuse, creating new species. Thats a fundamental pillar of evolution.

I have always believed in science.....I just don't believe in what seculars pretend about science....

It is not chaotic and random. Yes the mutations are random, however, once a mutation occurs it will be put through the process of nature, the more useful the mutation, the more likely it will be passed on to successive generations.

I am puzzled why you cannot see that your theory requires it to be chaotic and random.....for your system to function it requires that the processes of nature have changed, otherwise there would be no need to adapt.....without design that change must be random and without order.....

if you are finding that difficult to understand i have a multitude of videos explaining how wings and eyes have developed in different animals via natural selection. It also blows the wind out of the 'irreducibly complex' crowd, who assume everything must of suddenly worked all at once or it never would of worked.

bullshit....it may blow wind, but not in the way you imagine....

You are playing with words. The choice was gravity is naturally occurring when mass dents space time, or that god is choosing to 'lean a little' on every single particle, the more the mass the more he leans, meaning that whatever we measure it will look like the mass is causing a dent in space time, when really the mass has nothing to do with it, its just god.
So which is it to be? Mass, or god making it look like mass?

if by playing with words you mean communicating, yes....I am.....are you being dense or joking.....it isn't "mass or god making it look like mass"....it's god employing mass as he intended the system to work.....when an engineer designs an automobile engine is he required to run alongside the engine and spin it instead of using the gasoline it is designed to utilize?......

So you think that both God and evolution can co-exist? (Not just micro-evolution but macro-evolution aswell?)

evolution without control by an intelligent designer is a denial of God......there is no doubt that God claims to be the creator......to reject him in that role is a rejection of God....

Why not?
Does that mean if evolution in post 15 is proven that creation is disproven? (i do not think that is so, but if you think they can not co-exist i guess you do)

evolution as you understand it is not compatible with the concept of creation......your form of evolution requires millenia simply because it has no basis other than random chance......creation requires one intentional act.....to think that a deity would require a million chances to get it right certainly reflects poorly upon the power of the deity......

[Noir]

what an absurd assumption....

Do you have evidence of anything that has existed without having first not existed? You see thats a clincher, infinite regress, it doesn't fit into your god model, and thus is 'absurd' why is it absurd? Because your faith (i.e. belief without evidence) tells you its absurd.

I have always believed in science.....I just don't believe in what seculars pretend about science....

So if i may bring in area 4 of the video, summation, and how many dozens of different and independent fields of science all link into each other perfectly and follow the pattern predicted by Darwin many years before some of these felids even came onto existence.
Do you believe in that science?

I am puzzled why you cannot see that your theory requires it to be chaotic and random.....for your system to function it requires that the processes of nature have changed, otherwise there would be no need to adapt.....without design that change must be random and without order.....

Mutations are random, the process by which the mutations are tested is not, it is ruthlessly efficient. Those with inefficient/wasteful mutinous will die out, those with more efficient/helpful mutations will prosper.
And ofcourse nature is changing, we are on a cooling planet. The planet today will look very different to what it was a few million years ago, would you not agree?

bullshit....it may blow wind, but not in the way you imagine....

So what, you believe in irreducible complexity aswell? If so i will be happy to dispel this ignorance.

if by playing with words you mean communicating, yes....I am.....are you being dense or joking.....it isn't "mass or god making it look like mass"....it's god employing mass as he intended the system to work.....when an engineer designs an automobile engine is he required to run alongside the engine and spin it instead of using the gasoline it is designed to utilize?......

So runing with that, why do you think that a creator must of designed animals in the species which they are presently in? Why could he of not made the earth, knowing what would happen, and let everything evolve naturally as he designed it to?
You see, like i said, evolution will not disprove Gods/Creators in any way. The only people who make such claims are the religious, who seem to say its Evolution or Creation =/

evolution without control by an intelligent designer is a denial of God......there is no doubt that God claims to be the creator......to reject him in that role is a rejection of God....

Why so? Is Gravity without the control of an intelligent designed a denial of God?

evolution as you understand it is not compatible with the concept of creation......your form of evolution requires millenia simply because it has no basis other than random chance......creation requires one intentional act.....to think that a deity would require a million chances to get it right certainly reflects poorly upon the power of the deity......

Damn right it takes millennia, and do you know for a fact that is not how the creator designed it to be?

[OldMercsRule]

There are zero examples (or theories that hold up), where order arises out of random chaos. PERIOD: Noir.

Intelligent design can exist with evolution, Darwinian evolution can not stand on it's own merits without an explanation for how it all, (cosmology that creates the basic elemental building blocks as well), started.

An omnipotent God that created the order we observe could always exist, (a constant), and some: as I, believe that is the best way to explain what we are learining about both our universe and life on this planet.

One can debate the nature of the creator, science and or theory at the present stage can not explain the original source of the order we observe in the heavens or in life. Simple as that. JR

[PostmodernProphet]

Do you have evidence of anything that has existed without having first not existed?

???....do you have evidence that something cannot have always existed?

So if i may bring in area 4 of the video, summation, and how many dozens of different and independent fields of science all link into each other perfectly and follow the pattern predicted by Darwin many years before some of these felids even came onto existence.

none that I am aware of......all of science I have ever seen is perfectly compatible with the concept of a creating, designing deity.....

Mutations are random, the process by which the mutations are tested is not, it is ruthlessly efficient. Those with inefficient/wasteful mutinous will die out, those with more efficient/helpful mutations will prosper.

a predator with a voracious appetite, a freak late spring freeze that kills a mutated sapling, a comet plunging from space.....don't try to pretend that the "tests" are not random.....

And ofcourse nature is changing, we are on a cooling planet. The planet today will look very different to what it was a few million years ago, would you not agree?

I will agree we are on a planet with a cyclical warming/cooling pattern

So what, you believe in irreducible complexity aswell? If so i will be happy to dispel this ignorance.

son, so far all you've done is spread it....

So runing with that, why do you think that a creator must of designed animals in the species which they are presently in? Why could he of not made the earth, knowing what would happen, and let everything evolve naturally as he designed it to?

he could have.....but it's not what he told us he did....

Damn right it takes millennia, and do you know for a fact that is not how the creator designed it to be?

well obviously, random chance is the opposite of 'creation"....

[Noir]

???....do you have evidence that something cannot have always existed?

Ofcourse not, because i can not disprove a negative. You are the one that must provide proof sir, not i. but that is not really for this thread.

none that I am aware of......all of science I have ever seen is perfectly compatible with the concept of a creating, designing deity.....

Ofcourse it is, because everything and anything that you will see can only exist (in your view) because your creator wanted you to see it. That is no argument at all.
Now then, do you think that all of these dozens of scientific felids like link seamlessly are all wrong?

a predator with a voracious appetite, a freak late spring freeze that kills a mutated sapling, a comet plunging from space.....don't try to pretend that the "tests" are not random.....

I don't see what you are getting at here.

I will agree we are on a planet with a cyclical warming/cooling pattern

Well there you are, making your statement that nature has not changed a little silly.

son, so far all you've done is spread it....

I am sharing scientific information, you are the one saying that it is not possible because of what you think the creator did.

he could have.....but it's not what he told us he did....

What did he tell us he did?

well obviously, random chance is the opposite of 'creation"....

And is it not possible the creator designed it with 'random chance' in mind?

Again i must stress, this thread is really nothing to do with god. Its about sharing awareness of scientific fact. You are the one that seems to think they two are not compatible.