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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    And how would you 'take' founding father John Adams who stated in the treaty of tripolli...."As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen..."
    See highlighted portions:


    Declaration of Independence
    Here is the complete text of the Declaration of Independence.
    The original spelling and capitalization have been retained.

    (Adopted by Congress on July 4, 1776)
    The Unanimous Declaration
    of the Thirteen United States of America

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    When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government.

    The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

    He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

    He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
    officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

    He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

    For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

    For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

    For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

    For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

    For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

    For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:

    For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

    For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

    He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

    We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.


    New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton
    Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry
    Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery
    Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott
    New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris
    New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark
    Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross
    Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean
    Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton
    Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton
    North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn
    South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton
    Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton
    Source: The Pennsylvania Packet, July 8, 1776

    http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyame.../doi/text.html
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    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

  2. #767
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    Erm, MKP, what is highlighted supports what John Adams and I said.

    Yes it refers to a 'creator' and 'natures 'god'' but those are quite clearly either deist or pantheist statements, not theist ones. There is no mention of any specific god or religion.

    Anythig to say about John Adams' statement as a founding father that the nation was not founded on Christianity?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Erm, MKP, what is highlighted supports what John Adams and I said.

    Yes it refers to a 'creator' and 'natures 'god'' but those are quite clearly either deist or pantheist statements, not theist ones. There is no mention of any specific god or religion.

    Anythig to say about John Adams' statement as a founding father that the nation was not founded on Christianity?
    Noir, I have to hand it to you

    You have more spin then a Maytag washer


    How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

    Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by red states rule View Post
    Noir, I have to hand it to you

    You have more spin then a Maytag washer
    SPIN?
    It's a direct quote from John Adams, what spin have I applied to it exactly?

    And if I say, 'i believe in a creator' or 'i believe in natures god' does that make me a Christian theist, or a deist/pantheist?
    Last edited by Noir; 09-11-2010 at 07:16 AM.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    SPIN?
    It's a direct quote from John Adams, what spin have I applied to it exactly?

    And if I say, 'i believe in a creator' or 'i believe in natures god' does that make me a Christian theist, or a deist/pantheist?
    Somehow I do not think the Founding Father would agree with you. Given your age, and living in a liberal country I am not surprised Noir

    It is clear what America was founded on despite your continued denials


    How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

    Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Erm, MKP, what is highlighted supports what John Adams and I said.

    Yes it refers to a 'creator' and 'natures 'god'' but those are quite clearly either deist or pantheist statements, not theist ones. There is no mention of any specific god or religion.

    Anythig to say about John Adams' statement as a founding father that the nation was not founded on Christianity?
    Oh, those aren't principles of Christianity? Perhaps they wanted to encompass all religions.

    So, you are saying that American was founded on a principle of a supreme creator, also referred to as nature's god, just not the god of Christianity?

    Adams is just one of the founders and as I said elsewhere .... the "founding fathers" weren't the only ones influencing the foundation of this country.

    What words would have to be in the Declaration for you to believe this nation was founded on Christian principles?
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red states rule View Post
    Somehow I do not think the Founding Father would agree with you. Given your age, and living in a liberal country I am not surprised Noir

    It is clear what America was founded on despite your continued denials
    Yup. So because I'm young and British even though I can Have quoted you the text you say that John Adams and I couldn't possibly be in agreement.
    How I wish I was old and American. Then he would be able to agree with me /sark.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Yup. So because I'm young and British even though I can Have quoted you the text you say that John Adams and I couldn't possibly be in agreement.
    How I wish I was old and American. Then he would be able to agree with me /sark.
    and you would be much better off if you were in America. You would feel right at home in such liberal cities like NYC or Boston


    How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

    Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Yup. So because I'm young and British even though I can Have quoted you the text you say that John Adams and I couldn't possibly be in agreement.
    How I wish I was old and American. Then he would be able to agree with me /sark.
    Don't mind those who continually refuse to acknowledge the truth and reality, even when it's glaring them in the face. They will continue to spin in an attempt to twist the truth to support their own opinions.

    I've actually found it rather humorous though that those who Parrot the Political Preachers insisting the U.S. was founded on the Bible/Christianity use the Deceleration of Independence. When the author himself was a Deist and loathed organized religion.

    "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia

    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

    "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
    The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
    -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrskurtsprincess View Post
    Oh, those aren't principles of Christianity? Perhaps they wanted to encompass all religions.
    They are principles of all theist religions. That's the very point I'm trying to make, they are not specifically suited to any one religion or god.

    So, you are saying that American was founded on a principle of a supreme creator, also referred to as nature's god, just not the god of Christianity?
    Yes, exactly that.

    Adams is just one of the founders and as I said elsewhere .... the "founding fathers" weren't the only ones influencing the foundation of this country.
    So you think John Adams was wrong?

    What words would have to be in the Declaration for you to believe this nation was founded on Christian principles?
    Well references to Jesus, the bible, the NT, the Lord our God, the Crucifix, the holy trinity ect would all of been reasonable if the nation was founded on the Christian god, bur it wasn't so it isn't.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red states rule View Post
    and you would be much better off if you were in America. You would feel right at home in such liberal cities like NYC or Boston
    As a matter of fact I wouldn't, but hey, if you wana talk about that I'd be glad to, in another topic.

    As for this one, you still haven't told me how I spun John Adams' words to make it sound like he said America wasn't founded as a Christian nation...
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrskurtsprincess View Post
    Oh, those aren't principles of Christianity? Perhaps they wanted to encompass all religions.

    So, you are saying that American was founded on a principle of a supreme creator, also referred to as nature's god, just not the god of Christianity?

    Adams is just one of the founders and as I said elsewhere .... the "founding fathers" weren't the only ones influencing the foundation of this country.

    What words would have to be in the Declaration for you to believe this nation was founded on Christian principles?
    How about the words "Our Savior, Jesus Christ"?

    And how about the fact that the freedom of religion that this country IS founded on being in direct conflict with Christianity's "prime directive" AKA the first commandment.

    Can you name any uniquely Christian principles that are codified into the COTUS that supports your argument?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrskurtsprincess View Post
    See highlighted portions:

    When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    ...

    We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

    See bold portion:

    "Living is easy with eyes closed - misunderstanding all you see." -Lennon

    You misconstrue and your mistaken argument draws faulty conclusions from a poor understanding of the context.
    Last edited by Dante; 09-13-2010 at 08:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by red states rule View Post
    and you would be much better off if you were in America. You would feel right at home in such liberal cities like NYC or Boston
    A liberal and radical, a self built and highly successful, Boston lawyer named John Adams, pushed the Colonies into becoming America, often against the wishes of the well bred conservatives.

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    Have yet to get my reply (primarily from RSR who accused me of spin) so I have put the Adams quote in my sig to remind him every time he sees my sig about it, hopefully one day he will tell me how I spun Adams' words to make it look like he said America was not founded as a Christian nation.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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