The cause and possible solutions to Islamic Terrorism

[NightTrain]

Abso,

Since I think that we both agree that there are some very dangerous muslims causing a great deal of pain & suffering around the world, both in their respective countries and abroad, what is your solution to fix it?

I have my own theories as to what the cause is and how to fix it, but I'm genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say and what your ideas are to fix it.

Let's try to keep the "palestinians" vs Israel out of it, since I think we've already beaten that horse to death, dug him up and beat him again.

[abso]

Abso,

Since I think that we both agree that there are some very dangerous muslims causing a great deal of pain & suffering around the world, both in their respective countries and abroad, what is your solution to fix it?

I have my own theories as to what the cause is and how to fix it, but I'm genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say and what your ideas are to fix it.

Let's try to keep the "palestinians" vs Israel out of it, since I think we've already beaten that horse to death, dug him up and beat him again.

First before saying it in my own words, let me copy something from about.com:

The Causes of Terrorism

There Are Two Causes of Terrorism

All terrorist acts are motivated by two things:

• Social and political injustice: People choose terrorism when they are trying to right what they perceive to be a social or political or historical wrong—when they have been stripped of their land or rights, or denied these.
• The belief that violence or its threat will be effective, and usher in change. Another way of saying this is: the belief that violent means justify the ends. Many terrorists in history said sincerely that they chose violence after long deliberation, because they felt they had no choice.

The Article has few good examples read them if you may.........

Then the more important question:

What Conditions Are Favorable for Terrorism?
Although many people today believe that that religious fanaticism "causes" terrorism, it isn't true. It may be true that religious fanaticism creates conditions that are favorable for terrorism. But we know that religious zealotry does not 'cause' terrorism because there are many religious fanatics who do not choose terrorism or any form of violence. So there must also be other conditions that in combination provoke some people to see terrorism as an effective way of creating change in their world.


Please Read the full article here:
http://terrorism.about.com/od/causes...ses_terror.htm

Another article about causes of terrorism says:

Terrorism is the threat or use of violence against civilians to draw attention to an issue. Those searching for the causes of terrorism -why this tactic would be selected, and in what circumstances- approach the phenomenon in different ways. Some see it as an independent phenomenon, while others view it as one tactic in a larger strategy. Some seek to understand what makes an individual choose terrorism, while others look at it at the level of a group.

1. Political
Library of CongressTerrorism was originally theorized in the context of insurgency and guerrilla warfare, a form of organized political violence by a non-state army or group. Individuals, abortion clinic bombers, or groups, like the Vietcong in the 1960s, can be understood as choosing terrorism because they don't like the current organization of society and they want to change it.

2. Strategic
3. Psychological (Individual)
4. Group Psychology / Sociological
5. Socio-Economic

6. Religious
Rick Becker-Leckrone/Getty ImagesCareer terrorism experts began to argue in the 1990s that a new form of terrorism fueled by religious fervor was on the rise. They pointed to organizations such as Al Qaeda, Aum Shinrikyo (a Japanese cult) and Christian identity groups. Religious ideas, such as martyrdom, and Armageddon, were seen as particularly dangerous. However, as thoughtful studies and commentators have repeatedly pointed out, such groups use selectively interpret and exploit religious concepts and texts to support terrorism. Religions themselves do not "cause" terrorism.

Please read the article:
http://terrorism.about.com/od/causes..._Terrorism.htm

Please read both articles, they wont take much of your time, then we can continue our discussion, if you have any articles you read about the subject, please provide me with the links, we need to read the same articles to have a common ground for our discussion.

we will discuss possible solutions after we finish with the causes, and thanks for starting this thread.

[NightTrain]

Very well, I've read them.

I wasn't looking to post works done by others, I was looking to see in your own words what the causes and solutions are.

[abso]

Very well, I've read them.

I wasn't looking to post works done by others, I was looking to see in your own words what the causes and solutions are.

i know, and i am sorry that i had to post the articles, just needed you to read them, because they summarize everything i can say.

its the social injustice and political opinions that makes a terrorist becomes like that, in case of islamic terrorism, almost all the muslim terrorist in the world do so because of the actions of the israelian government and the american support and interference in the middle east.

none should accept the presence of american troops in his country, even i as a moderate person wont accept it, surely i wont react violently towards the civilians, but i will hate that presence and i will fight it if i had the chance to do so.

so someone like Usama Bin Laden, although i hate and denounce his actions, and i will never agree with attacking civilians, but i have to admit, that i will never condemn any operation his organization does against american troops in Afghanistan or Iraq, but i will only agree with the operation in case that no civilian at all is killed or even injured, so if they can fight the american army without harming any civilian then i will support their actions, but to fight cowardly and kill civilians in the process, is not something that i respect.

Usama Bin Laden, firstly he was an ally of USA, he helped Afghan fighters to fight the USSR invasion, a goal that USA shared with Bin Laden, then after this war ended Bin Laden was considered a hero in Saudia, everyone respected him so much, then USA built an army base in Saudia, Bin Laden spoke out against that presence, but the Saudia officials didnt accept his criticism, they banished him from the country, but he didnt accept it, he began to fight USA in his own way, and everyone who support USA or israel.

personally, i dont respect nor do i like the presence of american troops in any arabian or muslim country, i take that as an insult, and any president that allows american army to reside in his country is a traitor to his country in my opinion.


i understand their motives very well, i feel the same injustice that they feel, but i dont share the tendency to use violence, i hate violence and would never use it to express my opinion about any matter.

In short, the reasons are:
1- The US army bases in Islamic countries.
2- The US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.
3- The Israelian occupation of palestinian, syrian and lebanese lands.
4- The Israelian possession of Nuclear Weapons.
5- The US violation of international law.
6- The Israelian violation of international law.


My opinions about the solution for this radical behaviour and how to extinguish the hatred in their hearts:

American Side:
1- The Withdrawal of All American troops from all the islamic countries.
2- The Closure of Guantanamo Bay detention camp.
3- USA must be nuetral and objective towards the Israelian-Palestinian conflict.
4- Ending the blind support for Israel.

PS: USA can build a permenant base for its army inside israel to protect israel from any future attack, but to build bases in islamic country to use it for the protection of israel is completely unacceptable, if USA wants to protect israel then it should put its army within israel, not within other countries.


Israelian Side:
1- The Withdrawal of All Israelian troops from Lebanon, Syria, Palestine.
2- Force Israel to abide by UN resolutions and withdraw to the 1967 borders.
3- Dismantle all the settlements in occupied lands.
4- Give the refugees their right to return to their stolen land.
5- Ending the Blockade on Gaza
6- Sign the NPT and dismantle all the existing nuclear weapons


UN Side:
1- UN peace troops on the borders between Israel and Palestine.


Expected Results:
1- All arabian and islamic countries will sign peace treaties with israel including palestine.
2- Hamas will stop all its operations against israel.
3- Israelian and Palestinian existence based on the two states solution.
4- All Islamic terrorist in the world will stop all their attacks against any american or israelian targets.

PS: in case that Hamas doesnt agree with the peace, Egypt and NATO forces are the only forces that should be allowed to fight against Hamas, furthur israelian interference against Hamas will only cause more problems.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, i wasnt discussing the Israelian-Palestinian problem, i was just stating the problem and its solution as a whole, and that conflict is part of the problem so it had to be included in the reasons and solutions.

[NightTrain]

That's a start, Abso.

However, I'm noticing a complete lack of any responsibility on the part of the muslims. Everything you've outlined as the cause and solutions is because of American or Israeli actions.

[abso]

That's a start, Abso.

However, I'm noticing a complete lack of any responsibility on the part of the muslims. Everything you've outlined as the cause and solutions is because of American or Israeli actions.

i was just stating what US and Israel could do to stop the hatred in the heart of many muslims towards their policy, because their current policy makes everyone feels injustice, such injustice is what causes terrorism in the first place.

but from the muslim side, what can we do more than we are already doing, we fight and pursue terrorist, in egypt we try to keep the extreme Imams as restricted as possible, its hard to prevent them to talk while preserving the free speech right, so we try to make a balance between both things, to give them their right for free speech, and to arrest them if they abuse that right.

the more free speech we give this people, the more they cause troubles and call for radical beahviour which endenger lifes, and the funny thing here, is that when we arrest them, US objects .

we are trying to prevent them from spreading their radical ideas, and US is helping them, en EU too, during elections, we try to prevent them from taking so many places in the parliment, to prevent them from shaping the country's policy, but EU and US always object, its seems that US and EU will be relieved if those radical muslims take the power and control the country, if they take the power and form the government, they will convert egypt to islamic caliphate.


so in short:

Islamic Side:
1- Keep the extreme muslims under control.
2- Condemn all the violent actions based on Islamic religion.
3- Never to support any radical group.
4- Keep pursing all muslim terrorists and arresting them.
5- Encouraging peaceful Islamic ideas and spreading them.
6- Revise all the school teachings to make sure that they dont include any support for radical behaviour.
7- Banning any radical Imam from talking in puplic.
8- Increase the Media use in spreading true peaceful Islam among youths.


I didnt mention that in my first reply, because almost all this points are already being done but they are not enough, because their is nothing right being done from the american or the israelian side, nothing at all.

if US thinks that the war on terrorism will actually do something, then i am sorry to say that, but thats the dumbest idea i have ever heared in my life.

look now and before 9/11, do you see any reduced rate of terrorism, do you see any benifit from the war on terrorism ???, actually terrorism has spread more than ever, US has given the terrorist exactly what they wanted, MORE RECRUITS !!!!!!!!!!

when 1 million civilian iraqi is dead, how many youth will want to take revenge from US for invading their country and killing their relatives?, how many iraqi recruits will be in favour of Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda is wrong, but the hatred in the hearts of the youth who lost their parents in the war will prevent them from seeing the common sense and the right judgement.

US has given terrorist their paradise, countless numbers of recruits are now willing to join the war against US, the country which killed their mothers and fathers and siblings.

but from the islamic side, believe me, we try our best, but how can we convince youth not to tend to violence while all they see from the american side is more violence.

facing violence with violence will only breed more violence, waging two illegal wars just to fight terrorist groups, will only make more recruits avaiolable for terrorists, US only seeked war for revenge, not peace, so all our efforts to stop youth from seeking violence against US are hopeless, only US and israel can stop the hatred which they put in the hearts of the terrorists.

[NightTrain]

I didnt mention that in my first reply, because almost all this points are already being done.

This isn't something I have heard or even read about. Completely new to me, but I did suspect there had to be something like this because there are muslim countries that don't produce as many radical fundamentalists as others.

Let's use Iran as an example. Do you think if Iran adopted a modern form of government such as the USA or England or Germany or Japan or France, where everyone has the same rights and above all, Separation of Church and State as one of it's central building blocks that it would tremendously reduce the feeling of hopelessness of the poor and disadvantaged?

Removing those clerics from positions of governmental authority would greatly reduce their overall influence on the general public.

I believe the vast majority of terrorism stems from primitive forms of government - a very few people controlling the wealth and resources of a nation, and in order to maintain that control they love to point to other countries as the reasons the masses' lives are so harsh.

Is there any movements by the public to change things politically in your country or any other middle east country?

[abso]

personally sometimes when i see others in favour of attacking US and israel, and i try to convince them that violence is not the solution, what answer do i get ???, they just tell me to look at what US is doing in iraq and Afghanistan, the devastation it caused to the iraqi nation, the devastation caused by american weapons to the palestinians, the illegal occupation of palestinian and lebanese and syrian lands and the american support for it.

all that reasons are things that i am already aware of, i understand them, but i also dont want any violence from the islamic side, so my solution is that US and Israel to stop their actions against muslims so that they can allow us (Moderate Muslims) to convince radical muslims to stop their behaviour, we just need US help to stop the injustice that it supports, then the rest will be our responsibility.

[abso]

This isn't something I have heard or even read about. Completely new to me, but I did suspect there had to be something like this because there are muslim countries that don't produce as many radical fundamentalists as others.

Yes, its just because all the media presents is that all the muslims supports terrorism or at least do nothing to prevent it, while we really try our best to prevent it, but its not good enough since we are not getting any help from the US side.

Let's use Iran as an example. Do you think if Iran adopted a modern form of government such as the USA or England or Germany or Japan or France, where everyone has the same rights and above all, Separation of Church and State as one of it's central building blocks that it would tremendously reduce the feeling of hopelessness of the poor and disadvantaged?

if you ask me if its better if Iran adopt the policy of separation between religion and politics, i would definitly say yes, in other cases, like UAE as an example, or Egypt, religion is also highly regarded, but its not used in any extreme way like what is being done in Iran, so if iran wants to be a religious state, it should stop this extreme methods, or if it cant stop its religious leaders from being extreme, then it should stop using religion in politics, if it cant control the religious extremism then it should use the separation policy.

Removing those clerics from positions of governmental authority would greatly reduce their overall influence on the general public.

If they are extreme then they should be removed, this will lead to a great reduce in the radical behaviour and support, its even better if they can be replaced by another moderate clerics, because when you replace a cleric by a politician, people might not listen to him, but replacing him with a moderate peaceful loving cleric, will help even more in reducing the radical behaviour in general, because in religious countries like Iran, people always listen more to clerics than politicans.

I believe the vast majority of terrorism stems from primitive forms of government - a very few people controlling the wealth and resources of a nation, and in order to maintain that control they love to point to other countries as the reasons the masses' lives are so harsh.

i agree with you, the principle of few people controlling everything, like in Saudia, is a reason to make people hate the system, when they hate the system they will tend to violence, and when they tend to violence they may point it to other targets than their country, which is targets like US.

but also, feeling injustice in our own countries isnt the main reason for global terrorism, but feeling injustice due to american actions towards muslims and their blind support to israel which illegally occupy lands, thats the main reason for fighting US, but i agree that the reason you mentioned creates more recruits available for the extreme teachings of radical people.

Is there any movements by the public to change things politically in your country or any other middle east country?

sure, in egypt there are many movements which wants political changes, in every arab country there are movement, a movement which wants more right for women, or a movement which wants more rights for animals or more rights for people in general, or less rights for the police, or less rights for the president, there are always movements which wants something, there are always something more to want from your government, humans will never be content with what they already have

[NightTrain]

Yes, its just because all the media presents is that all the muslims supports terrorism or at least do nothing to prevent it, while we really try our best to prevent it, but its not good enough since we are not getting any help from the US side.

What do you want our help with?

if you ask me if its better if Iran adopt the policy of separation between religion and politics, i would definitly say yes, in other cases, like UAE as an example, or Egypt, religion is also highly regarded, but its not used in any extreme way like what is being done in Iran, so if iran wants to be a religious state, it should stop this extreme methods, or if it cant stop its religious leaders from being extreme, then it should stop using religion in politics, if it cant control the religious extremism then it should use the separation policy.

Don't you think your governments would better represent people if you removed Islam from government entirely? Wouldn't there be a greatly reduced potential to misuse that power?

If they are extreme then they should be removed, this will lead to a great reduce in the radical behaviour and support, its even better if they can be replaced by another moderate clerics, because when you replace a cleric by a politician, people might not listen to him, but replacing him with a moderate peaceful loving cleric, will help even more in reducing the radical behaviour in general, because in religious countries like Iran, people always listen more to clerics than politicans.

This is why I think it would be best to remove clerics entirely from political office. The tendency to abuse their influence is too great.

sure, in egypt there are many movements which wants political changes, in every arab country there are movement, a movement which wants more right for women, or a movement which wants more rights for animals or more rights for people in general, or less rights for the police, or less rights for the president, there are always movements which wants something, there are always something more to want from your government, humans will never be content with what they already have

I wasn't clear, here. I meant, is there serious talk about changing the way things are done? Are there politicians that give speeches about changing things in a meaningful way with a following of people that demand change? Or does a politician come along with ideas like these and immediately disappears or is outright murdered?

We don't hear anything about movements (political ideas) toward modernizing any of the middle eastern governments - and I can't believe that there wouldn't be anyone that doesn't want better governments for themselves and their kids.

Where are all the people demanding modernization?

[logroller]

That's a start, Abso.

However, I'm noticing a complete lack of any responsibility on the part of the muslims. Everything you've outlined as the cause and solutions is because of American or Israeli actions.

Middle East perspective: abso outlined some clear demands, from the indigenous perspective, for middle east peace; so of course they're going to be biased, they're demands. I would be pissed if some foreign nation came and took my land and resources; Nobody, aside from self-blame and guilt, would feel otherwise. (Just look how angry Americans are about Mexicans being employed illegally, it's the same thing, only to a lesser degree.) It wasn't their fault they lived, and want to again live, in one of the few areas rich in natural resources (water and fertile land, not just oil); as this, in reality, is the true cause of the dispute, not religion. All the religious strife is just a condition which makes it easier to act in pursuit of one's own self-interest. I can't speak with absolute certainty, as I'm not there, nor have I been, but understand that water and fertile land are necessary for life; both are relatively scarce in most of the Middle East. The areas of dispute are both of religious significance and rich in these necessary resources; I deduce this is not by mere coincidence.

My perspective: America is dependant on oil, not foreign oil, but oil. That's why we're so interested in the middle east, period. To find a solution, one must solve their own problems, asking someone what they believe will solve the problems of someone else is fruitless; even worse, forcing your solutions upon them. Until we, as individuals, repent for our own selfish actions, we can't, with any integrity, ask someone else to behave accordingly.

[abso]

What do you want our help with?

1- Withdrawal from all the islamic lands
2- Force israel to abide by 1967 borders
3- Protect palestinians from the israel as much as you are protecting israel from the palestinians.

to spread the sense of justice, when you need justice for your own people, you have to spread the justice around you so that you can feel it yourself, so giving justice to palestinians and muslims, will inflict on the americans too, being the most powerful means to be the most responsible, but what i see USA doing, has nothing to do with responsibility at all, if US feels responsible for the israelian security, then its responsible for palestinian security too, if its giving weapons to israel to defend itself, then what about the palestinian, who is defending them?, being the most powerful, doesnt make that you responsible for the most weak ?, when a criminal is hiding in a building, and you are trying to arrest him, you must take in your account, that you are responsible for all the lives of the innocents in that buildings, you cant just bomb it then say that the criminal is the one responsible for it because he was hiding among them.

Don't you think your governments would better represent people if you removed Islam from government entirely? Wouldn't there be a greatly reduced potential to misuse that power?

no, because a government with no religion can never rule over religious people, they will always tend to throw off such government, so in egypt, the government is as modern as it can be while keeping a sense of religion in its methods.

so religion is a powerful tool while implemented in politics, it all depends on how you use it, you can use it to support terrorism, or you can use it to stop terrorism, it all depends on who is in power, so encouraging moderate muslims to be in power is better than telling them to ignore religion.

when the government ignore religion, the people will ignore it.

This is why I think it would be best to remove clerics entirely from political office. The tendency to abuse their influence is too great.

yes, its too great, but when you ignore religion, you will lose a great influence in your people and surrender this influence to religious leader who can also lead people towards violence or peace, people will always follow their religion more than their government.
who do you hold more respect for, is it your priest or your mayor ?

I wasn't clear, here. I meant, is there serious talk about changing the way things are done? Are there politicians that give speeches about changing things in a meaningful way with a following of people that demand change? Or does a politician come along with ideas like these and immediately disappears or is outright murdered?

yes, in egypt there are always that kind of politicians, a recent politician is mohamed Elbaradei, the former Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), nowdays he gives alot of speechs everywhere in egypt, calling for a change in the internal politics of the country

We don't hear anything about movements (political ideas) toward modernizing any of the middle eastern governments - and I can't believe that there wouldn't be anyone that doesn't want better governments for themselves and their kids.

Where are all the people demanding modernization?

as i previously said, you only hear about bad things in rab world, things that is intended to make you hate it to disrespect it, but you will rarely hear about any good thing in islamic or arab countries.

[NightTrain]

1- Withdrawal from all the islamic lands
2- Force israel to abide by 1967 borders
3- Protect palestinians from the israel as much as you are protecting israel from the palestinians.

to spread the sense of justice, when you need justice for your own people, you have to spread the justice around you so that you can feel it yourself, so giving justice to palestinians and muslims, will inflict on the americans too, being the most powerful means to be the most responsible, but what i see USA doing, has nothing to do with responsibility at all, if US feels responsible for the israelian security, then its responsible for palestinian security too, if its giving weapons to israel to defend itself, then what about the palestinian, who is defending them?, being the most powerful, doesnt make that you responsible for the most weak ?, when a criminal is hiding in a building, and you are trying to arrest him, you must take in your account, that you are responsible for all the lives of the innocents in that buildings, you cant just bomb it then say that the criminal is the one responsible for it because he was hiding among them.

1) We'd love to. Our job isn't done yet, when we feel that we're safe and Afghanistan & Iraq can take care of business responsibly then we'll pull out.

2) Israel's borders are what they are. Three Arab countries formed an alliance and attacked Israel, and they lost. Israel kept the land.

That's the way things go when you lose a war sometimes. Israel decided they wanted to keep the land, and it was their right to do so. It is no one's business except Israel's.

3) Israel doesn't attack the "palestinians". They counter-attack. Once those idiots realize that they get hammered each and every time they attack Israel and stop, peace will prevail.

It is Israel's right to defend themselves. They do not attack "palestinians" unprovoked.

no, because a government with no religion can never rule over religious people, they will always tend to throw off such government, so in egypt, the government is as modern as it can be while keeping a sense of religion in its methods.

so religion is a powerful tool while implemented in politics, it all depends on how you use it, you can use it to support terrorism, or you can use it to stop terrorism, it all depends on who is in power, so encouraging moderate muslims to be in power is better than telling them to ignore religion.

when the government ignore religion, the people will ignore it.

Look at England. Look at America. The vast majority of the people are religious, and yet the government and religion are kept separate.

There are even a great deal of muslims here - they seem to get along fine for the most part.

yes, its too great, but when you ignore religion, you will lose a great influence in your people and surrender this influence to religious leader who can also lead people towards violence or peace, people will always follow their religion more than their government.
who do you hold more respect for, is it your priest or your mayor ?

So far, that way of thinking hasn't been very productive for all of you over there.

It's something to seriously think about and discuss among your friends.

yes, in egypt there are always that kind of politicians, a recent politician is mohamed Elbaradei, the former Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), nowdays he gives alot of speechs everywhere in egypt, calling for a change in the internal politics of the country

I remember his name. I'll have to review old newspaper stories to refresh my memory.

Is he making progress? What do his political opponents say?

as i previously said, you only hear about bad things in rab world, things that is intended to make you hate it to disrespect it, but you will rarely hear about any good thing in islamic or arab countries.

That is why we are fortunate to have you to converse with us so that we may get a better understanding of the political climate over there and perhaps come away with a better understanding of each other.

[Noir]

The solution, in a word, enlightenment.

[abso]

1) We'd love to. Our job isn't done yet, when we feel that we're safe and Afghanistan & Iraq can take care of business responsibly then we'll pull out.

Thats exactly the problem, because americans think that it was their right to invade iraq and afghanistan.

American reasons for Invading:
1- Afghanistan: Bin Laden
2- Iraq: WMD

Afghanistan:
- Offered to hand over Bin Laden to a third party for fair trial, and asked for any evidence that Bin Laden did it, while US provided no evidence at all that Bin Laden was responsible and refused the offer to hand over Bin Laden to a third country for fair trial, so all USA wanted is revenge, not justice.

Iraq:
- No evidence was presented that shows iraq had WMD, and of course no WMD were found at all in iraq.
- Iraq has never been a threat to the national security of US.

your safety doesnt lie in those wars, those wars have created more and more terrorists, and you are in danger more than before, if you think that the numbers of terrorists are in decrease, then you are dreaming, how can they decrease while the occupation are still in its place and everyone is willing to fight to make US leave his country, you are only giving more recruits to stupid organizations like Al-Qaeda

2) Israel's borders are what they are. Three Arab countries formed an alliance and attacked Israel, and they lost. Israel kept the land.
That's the way things go when you lose a war sometimes. Israel decided they wanted to keep the land, and it was their right to do so. It is no one's business except Israel's.

Attacked israel ???, when did that actually happen, have they started the war !!!

israel wanted to keep the land !!!, even if the arabs attacked first, israel doesnt have the right to keep the land, what world are you living in, are we in a jungle where the strong can enforce his wishes on the weak !!!, there are laws which were made to be respected, and your country participated in making them, so at least it should be the first to respect them and enforce them.

In WWII, Germany started the war, and it lost, did anyone get a piece of its land ?, is it legal to take a land from the attacker ?

3) Israel doesn't attack the "palestinians". They counter-attack. Once those idiots realize that they get hammered each and every time they attack Israel and stop, peace will prevail.
It is Israel's right to defend themselves. They do not attack "palestinians" unprovoked.

you can keep saying that and i can keep saying my view, you say israel counter-attack, i say palestinians counter-attack, every side now is attacking the other because the other is attacking, so who is really attacking and who is counter-attacking, who is occupying lands, and who just wants his land back, but more importantly, who killed more than the other, because thats the only view i have for wars, how many innocent civilians did each side kill.

Look at England. Look at America. The vast majority of the people are religious, and yet the government and religion are kept separate.

There are even a great deal of muslims here - they seem to get along fine for the most part.

So far, that way of thinking hasn't been very productive for all of you over there.

It's something to seriously think about and discuss among your friends.

each region has its own traditions, in egypt, although we are a modern country not an islamic regime, and we dont rule with religion as much as iran does, but we do consider Islam to be our official state religion, but we dont have any religious people in our political positins, we do believe that religion should be separated from politics, and its the main objective of our government, to separate religion from the policy of the country.

but about productivity, i think the true islamic policies were productive in their time, when we had true islamic leaders, not just political leader, or extreme stupid islamic leaders, if we had someone like "Umar Ibn Al Khattab" to be our leader now, things wouldnt be like that at all.

I remember his name. I'll have to review old newspaper stories to refresh my memory.
Is he making progress? What do his political opponents say?

yes, he is gathering so much support from the egyptian people, about his political opponents, they say nothing about him yet, as he has none, he hasnt run for the paliment elections, he intends to run for the presedential elections in 2011, there are several possible candidates, like Mohamed Elbaradi, Amr Moussa, Omar Suleiman, Ahmed Zewail.

That is why we are fortunate to have you to converse with us so that we may get a better understanding of the political climate over there and perhaps come away with a better understanding of each other.

thanks, i also really hope that we can attain a better understanding of each other.