Riots in Egypt

[Mr. P]

for now i think its not a big chance, maybe 10-20%, because the majority of the egyptians along with me doesnt perfer to live under strict islamic law, we prefer to live in a moderate islamic country not a strict one, many doesnt believe the propaganda of the islamic brotherhood, i like some of their thoughts but not all of it, they have strict rules which will make life harder for everyone, i dont think that the egyptians will empower them.

but maybe as the time passes the chance of the islamic brotherhood taking power will rise, i cant say for sure, but what i believe is that Egypt will never turn to be another Iran, and we will never get along with Iran in their current policies, even in the religious aspect we have different ideas, we are sunni and they are shia, and as much as i hate it, but those two parties have major differences which appear between the religious people, but in general the normal people in the street doesnt feel any difference between sunni or shiaa like in Lebanon, but when you speak about strict shiaa like Iran or strict Sunni like Saudia, thats when you will notice a big difference which makes them very hard to get along, although they have alot of common things like being strict in their laws and with women and such things, but their views about the islamic history are very different, and that always cause problems between them.

back to egypt, the general population doesn't want any radical group in power, we dont like to head toward that direction, although i believe that the coming government may revise some of the international positions which angers the egyptians, but i don think that the peace treaty with israel will be cancelled, maybe by time we will demand some changes in it to allow us to move our troops freely in sinai, or maybe the people will ask the government to cancel the gas selling to israel at very low rates.

so nothing major will change about the foriegn affairs, but internally, there will be very big changes, the ex interior ministry will be sent to the military court soon for his actions during the riots, the new minister have instructed the police not to intervene with the demostrations at all, my area had a demonstration today, the police walked behind them just to watch and ensure that nothing violent will happen.

many internal policies will have to be changed, the egyptian People's Council have been suspended until the members whom the people disagreed with their election are removed, many members have been accused of forging the elections, so they suspended the whole concil until further notice, many demands of the people have been answered, but the people still want the president to relinquish power at once without any delay, which is a demand that i dont agree with, the president have announced that he wont run for the coming elections in september, which is enough for me, i dont know why those people want to burn the whole country just to remove him today, its just 7 months, he have been president for 28 years, whats wrong with leaving him for 7 more months, maybe he will try to do good things for the people to forgive him for his failurs.

i believe that the country needs a change, but i dont believe that Mubarak is a dictator, or that he is that bad, the country itself is messed up, its not just the fault of the president, its also the fault of the people themselfs, we all take part in what happened, and all the egyptians are at fault not just the president, he tried as much as he could, but the people will never be content, i know them because i am one of them, i dont deny that the government had its faults and mistakes, but to say that one person is the only one responsible for what the country has become is hypocritic, many ex prime ministers are also at fault and responsible for the problems that we know suffer from.

finally, the most thing that i blame Mubarak at, is that he didnt leave the power years ago, he shouldnt have stayed in power for 28 years, he is now held responsible for every problem that the country faced during those three decades, thats alot of time and alot of problems to be held responsible for, its a responsibility that none should bear to carry, but he choosed to do that, so he choosed the path that lead most of the country to hate him.

My impression is that the protestors are not the poor but the educated, they seem pretty Westernised and would never accept rule by strict Islamic law. My fear is that they are a minority in the population. I think the majority are poor an uneducated. They would be much more likely to be fooled by strict Islamist or the brotherhood, don't you think?

I think it's a mistake to insist Mubarak leave immediately unless control falls to the military. He seems to care about the country and would be a plus for a smooth transition to a new free Government (I think). With the turmoil going on around Egypt in Jordan, Yemen etc., the less turmoil durning transition the better the outcome for Egypt the middle east and the world. IMO

Now I'm hearing the pro Mubarak supporters are being sent by the Ministry of the Interior. That would change my mind about leaving Mubarak in office until Sept. What a mess! Good luck, Abso.

[Kathianne]

It's taken a violent turn today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/...mi_ea/ml_egypt

Mubarak backers attack foes with firebombs, bricks
By HADEEL AL-SHALCHI and SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Hadeel Al-shalchi And Sarah El Deeb, Associated Press 1 min ago

CAIRO – Thousands of supporters and opponents of President Hosni Mubarak battled in Cairo's main square Wednesday, raining stones, bottles and firebombs on each other in scenes of uncontrolled violence as soldiers stood by without intervening. Government backers galloped in on horses and camels, only to be dragged to the ground and beaten bloody.

At one of the fighting's front lines, next to the famed Egyptian Museum at the edge of Tahrir Square, pro-government rioters blanketed the rooftops of nearby buildings and dumped bricks and firebombs onto the crowd below — in the process setting a tree ablaze inside the museum grounds. Plainclothes police at the building entrances prevented anti-Mubarak protesters from storming up to stop them.

The two sides pummeled each other with hurled chunks of concrete and bottles at each of the six entrances to the sprawling plaza, where the 10,000 anti-Mubarak protesters tried to fend off the more than 3,000 attackers who besieged the square. Some on the pro-government side waved machetes, while the square's defenders filled the air with a ringing battlefield din by banging metal fences with sticks.

The protesters accused Mubarak's regime of unleashing a force of paid thugs and plainclothes police to crush their unprecedented 9-day-old movement demanding his ouster, a day after the 82-year-old president refused to step down. They showed off police ID badges they said were wrested off their attackers...

[texastom]

It's taken a violent turn today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/...mi_ea/ml_egypt

I hate to say this, but I think most of us saw this coming. Unfortunately, there are too many "forces" behind the scenes that are fomenting this "movement" and neither side, in my opinion, truly have the best interest of the masses at heart while the people, who truly do want the best for Egypt, are being used as pawns.

I've become very cynical in the last few years and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the events in the world are orchestrated moves with the ultimate goal being the subjugation of all under the forces of the world's banksters and elites.

Hold on, I think I hear a helicopter hovering over my house!

[Gaffer]

I hate to say this, but I think most of us saw this coming. Unfortunately, there are too many "forces" behind the scenes that are fomenting this "movement" and neither side, in my opinion, truly have the best interest of the masses at heart while the people, who truly do want the best for Egypt, are being used as pawns.

I've become very cynical in the last few years and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the events in the world are orchestrated moves with the ultimate goal being the subjugation of all under the forces of the world's banksters and elites.

Hold on, I think I hear a helicopter hovering over my house!

Interesting because I have the come to the same conclusion and I see Glen Beck is actually doing a week long series on this as well. It's scary when I see the same things he does and I don't have resources that he does.

A caliphate and a new soviet union seem to be the goals of the elites of both ilks.

[texastom]

Interesting because I have the come to the same conclusion and I see Glen Beck is actually doing a week long series on this as well. It's scary when I see the same things he does and I don't have resources that he does.

A caliphate and a new soviet union seem to be the goals of the elites of both ilks.

I need to watch it then. I've watched a few of his shows over the years, but I stopped watching most MSM "news & information" programs a couple of years ago. Sure, I will tune to CNN or FOX now and again, but I don't watch them religiously like I once did.

I tend to get my news now from various blogs I read on a daily basis. Some agree with my assessment, some don't. But I believe any of us that are semi intelligent can see this without having to be told.

I agree that when guys like you and I can see this movement without the resources of somebody like Beck, then that's pretty scary. It's scary because, in my opinion, it means the movement is going "mainstream".

It's funny though... I say I don't have the resources Beck does, but I've been reading the NIA blog for years now and it's become, from what I understand, a site he now often references. Maybe we do have the resources, but we've been programmed to only watch the talking heads on the tube.

[texastom]

To address your last point....

Islam has a built in function that must be very interesting to the banksters.... a "religious" banking system..... Imagine what the banksters could do in an alliance with a religion with such a system in place! Sure, they can't charge interest, but they can charge fees and the system can be used as a means of control.

[revelarts]

....Unfortunately, there are too many "forces" behind the scenes that are fomenting this "movement" and ... [none] ...., in my opinion, truly have the best interest of the masses at heart while the people, who truly do want the best for Egypt, are being used as pawns.
.....

When I hear the protesters saying they "don't have a leader", my 1st thought is. Oh Crap. Then someone with money and power will provide one for you.

I'd like to hope that "the people" can maneuver this to their advantage but they've got to recognize the religious, political and corporate enemies and work real hard against professional sabotaged or end up with just a new coat of paint on an old camel of a puppet dictatorship.

I wonder about the level of political savvy the poor folks have, many times the poor see political and other power structures in a clearer light than the middle classes. If they can keep their heads they could be a monkey wrench in the world power structure. Much like Chavez, who , for all his Commie faults, didn't play ball and hasn't been killed yet. He paid off all of his IMF world bank debts and took ( stole back) items from foreign companies that had been dictating terms to the people. I get the feeling that he's getting a bit power mad and has possibly been starting to lean toward the int corps. and world powers though. but that's another story.

If the military are actually for the people and aren't bought off by outside powers It'll make it much more likely that Egypts new Gov't will be a real expression of the people.

And I wonder, these Mubarak supporters on camel and horse back, how many are the old corrupt marshal law police in plain clothes.

[abso]

Hello Abso! I'm new here, but know some of the posters from another board and from another time.... So I hope you don't mind my jumping in to pose a question.

Do you have any issue with Mubarak wanting to take time to step down (assuming he follows through as promised)?

I was living in Korea when they had their last dictator and therefore witnessed their transition from despot to democracy. Therefore, I wonder what you and other Egyptian may think about this.

Do you not believe an orderly transition with true and open elections is better than a disorderly transition? At least with an orderly transition (9 months is not that long), that allows time to the formation of opposing parties and is more likely to insure that there is not a knee-jerk reaction that puts some new despote in power.

When Korea made their transition from despot to democracy, it was announced by their then dictator that he would step down a full 10 months before he did (he only finally agreed to step down in 1987 due to a popular uprising). That allowed for the peaceful and orderly transfer of power.

In my opinion, the Korean model should be followed in Egypt as just about every time there has been no orderly transition, the country going through the transition has ended up with autocratic regimes that are as bad if not worse than what came before them.

Is it possible for Egypt to make an orderly transition?

No i dont have any problems with him staying in power for the next 7 months, i believe that he must stay in the next 7 months to stabilize the country, if he stepped down now the country will burn, the every party will want to jump into power, the whole country may fall into civil war, none can predict what will happen, so i dont prefer to take that chance, i prefer to leave him in power to preserve the country for the next leadership and government.

[abso]

BTW: I'm happy to know you and your family are safe and regardless of how the transition takes place, I pray for the best! What happens in Egypt will have an effect on the world.

thanks.

[abso]

My impression is that the protestors are not the poor but the educated, they seem pretty Westernised and would never accept rule by strict Islamic law. My fear is that they are a minority in the population. I think the majority are poor an uneducated. They would be much more likely to be fooled by strict Islamist or the brotherhood, don't you think?

I think it's a mistake to insist Mubarak leave immediately unless control falls to the military. He seems to care about the country and would be a plus for a smooth transition to a new free Government (I think). With the turmoil going on around Egypt in Jordan, Yemen etc., the less turmoil durning transition the better the outcome for Egypt the middle east and the world. IMO

Now I'm hearing the pro Mubarak supporters are being sent by the Ministry of the Interior. That would change my mind about leaving Mubarak in office until Sept. What a mess! Good luck, Abso.

i agree with you, i fear that the uneducated and poor always fooled by the propaganda of the islamic brotherhood, they have alot of money and alot of good promises, but i fear that they will have alot of negative points too, i am not all against an islamic country or caliphate as long as its moderate, but what i fear is that if we empower them, there is not way we can ensure that they will be moderate or strict, so i prefer not to take that chance, i prefer a free country that is islamic and also democratic, something between Turkey which is too secular and saudia which is too strict, thats the place which i want to live in, i hope that the poor will not be fooled by any party or any promises that may not be kept.

i also believe that leaving office at once will burn the country, for Mubarak to stay till now and not run like the Tunisian president, that makes him a partiot who really thinks about his country, he refused to let it fall into chaos, i believe that we must leave him in power for the next 7 months, then choose a new president in a free elections.

the news about the ministry of interior may be jus rumours, they may be just some gangsters hired by some people who want Mubarak to look bad, but for Mubarak to do that knowing that this will make the people anger more and more, that is not a wise move which i dont believe that Mubarak will make, of course my opinion may be wrong, but i think the better chance is that Mubarak would never take such action.

[abso]

Interesting because I have the come to the same conclusion and I see Glen Beck is actually doing a week long series on this as well. It's scary when I see the same things he does and I don't have resources that he does.

A caliphate and a new soviet union seem to be the goals of the elites of both ilks.

rest assured, there will be no caliphate or a new soviet union, that is not likely to happen, there is a chance, but its not that big.

[Little-Acorn]

The list of islamic groups involved in the rioting was extensive.

It's not the ones involved in the rioting you have to worry about. It's the ones waiting quietly on the sidelines for the rioting to die down, before they make their move.

[Gaffer]

i agree with you, i fear that the uneducated and poor always fooled by the propaganda of the islamic brotherhood, they have alot of money and alot of good promises, but i fear that they will have alot of negative points too, i am not all against an islamic country or caliphate as long as its moderate, but what i fear is that if we empower them, there is not way we can ensure that they will be moderate or strict, so i prefer not to take that chance, i prefer a free country that is islamic and also democratic, something between Turkey which is too secular and saudia which is too strict, thats the place which i want to live in, i hope that the poor will not be fooled by any party or any promises that may not be kept.

i also believe that leaving office at once will burn the country, for Mubarak to stay till now and not run like the Tunisian president, that makes him a partiot who really thinks about his country, he refused to let it fall into chaos, i believe that we must leave him in power for the next 7 months, then choose a new president in a free elections.

the news about the ministry of interior may be jus rumours, they may be just some gangsters hired by some people who want Mubarak to look bad, but for Mubarak to do that knowing that this will make the people anger more and more, that is not a wise move which i dont believe that Mubarak will make, of course my opinion may be wrong, but i think the better chance is that Mubarak would never take such action.

The bolded part is the reason I don't trust in you. While you appear to be a nice guy and nonviolent, you still have that muslim belief that you can have a democracy and islam at the same time. That's like mixing water and oil. You can't have islam with a democracy, islam requires following sharia law. You might start out secular but it will never remain that way. Turkey is not part of the EU because they were never secular enough and are swinging back to a theocracy, allying themselves with iran. A caliphate in the middle east would basically create an EU type organization with one country and sect dominating everything.

Mubarak needs to go in a transition like you say. The ones that want him out right now want that vacuum so they can fill it with their own brand of government.

I read that the troops along the gaza border were withdrawn and hams was entering Egypt from there. Heard anything on that? Also the brotherhood is calling for Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel. Shows where their priorities lie.

[abso]

The bolded part is the reason I don't trust in you. While you appear to be a nice guy and nonviolent, you still have that muslim belief that you can have a democracy and islam at the same time. That's like mixing water and oil. You can't have islam with a democracy, islam requires following sharia law. You might start out secular but it will never remain that way. Turkey is not part of the EU because they were never secular enough and are swinging back to a theocracy, allying themselves with iran. A caliphate in the middle east would basically create an EU type organization with one country and sect dominating everything.

Mubarak needs to go in a transition like you say. The ones that want him out right now want that vacuum so they can fill it with their own brand of government.

I read that the troops along the gaza border were withdrawn and hams was entering Egypt from there. Heard anything on that? Also the brotherhood is calling for Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel. Shows where their priorities lie.

its you opinion that Islam cant exist along a democracy, but i believe otherwise, i believe that if moderate Islam is applied in the right way, it will be democratic.

the important part in your post, is what you said about the people who are waiting to fill Mubarak's position, thats what i fear, i dont know what type of people will take the power after him, i hope that they wont be strict islamists.

about Hamas, i havent heared anything about that, but if they eneterd egypt, then they are more than welcome to be annihilated by the egyptian army.

about Israel, i hope the coming government will respect the peace treaty and doesnt cancel it, but the coming president must also modify that treaty.

[texastom]

The bolded part is the reason I don't trust in you. While you appear to be a nice guy and nonviolent, you still have that muslim belief that you can have a democracy and islam at the same time. That's like mixing water and oil. You can't have islam with a democracy, islam requires following sharia law. You might start out secular but it will never remain that way. Turkey is not part of the EU because they were never secular enough and are swinging back to a theocracy, allying themselves with iran. A caliphate in the middle east would basically create an EU type organization with one country and sect dominating everything.

Mubarak needs to go in a transition like you say. The ones that want him out right now want that vacuum so they can fill it with their own brand of government.

I read that the troops along the gaza border were withdrawn and hams was entering Egypt from there. Heard anything on that? Also the brotherhood is calling for Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel. Shows where their priorities lie.

Sure, democracy and Islam can work together as long as everybody living there is Muslim. It wouldn't be a very good place to live it you weren't because, as the old saying goes, with true democracy, you get mob rule. That's why our forefathers did not form the US with a truly democratic government but instead, a constitutional republic.