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Senior Member
Who "goes to hell"? No body - For God, Ninety-Nine is Not Enough
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Senior Member
so what happens when #100 says, "I would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven"?........God puts him in heaven anyway?.......
...full immersion.....
Senior Member
"Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that HE is God"... yes. .that's right... everyone's hearts will be melded and healed...Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet
Senior Member
Ya know what cracks me up about you? It's not like you're going to all of a sudden come up with a scenario or passage of scripture I haven't considered. I was raised under the indoctrination of churches who believe what you believe - I used to say the same things you do...
But it's coo - I like the fact that you try..... Shows you're committed to your belief no matter how erroneous it is..
If you had a child who one day came up to you and said: "Dad, I no longer wish to bear your name or be called your son" - would you then stick him into an eternal torture chamber?
Senior Member
so heaven is going to be a place where we are side by side with by people who don't want to be there?.......sounds like the present......why bother to have a heaven in that case.....
...full immersion.....
Senior Member
don't misunderstand my motive......I'm doing it to keep young readers from making the same mistakes you have......But it's coo - I like the fact that you try..... Shows you're committed to your belief no matter how erroneous it is..
...full immersion.....
Senior Member
by the way, which translation are you using that comes up with that result for Philippians 2?.......every one that I looked up reads
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow.....
or are you relying on Isaiah 45?...
there it is said "Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear. "
but that isn't a promise of heaven, that is a promise of judgment.....look at the whole passage....
22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone
are deliverance and strength.’”
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame. "
does that really make you believe those who believe and those who refuse will be treated the same?.......
...full immersion.....
Senior Member
CP I wish that were true. Good Knows I do. But it's just not an honest reading of the Scriptures.
the Guy talks about popular Christian opinion. Well Hell is not popular, and it's not opinion but Hell is a "Christian" teaching.
CP, I have Zero Problem that Jesus's death paid for ALL. But Jesus added his own caveat here ,that he would get ALL that believe.
Jesus said
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
Why be afraid if there's never a chance of going there CP?
Matthew 8
11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
He didn't say ALL here he said MANY? why ? because he he obviously meant that some "subjects" would be thrown out.
Also in Matthew are the parables of the Tares and of the Parable of the Fish. In both it describes Some being taken by the Farmer /fisherman and others Being Cast out or Burned. And So there's no confusion as to what the parable means he end his explanation of it with
Matthew 13
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The misguided fella in the video mentioned a lot of verse in John however he failed to read some verses RIGHT NEXT TO those he quoted and of course many others in John as well that give a broader ... different... more HONEST picture than what he's painted.
John 3:17-19
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
...
John 3:35 AND 36
35The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
36He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.
John also wrote Revelation which near the end has this...
Revelation 20:15
"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
It clearly say some WILL be thrown into a lake of fire.
Jesus In the terse words of Mark 16 is PAINFULLY CLEAR
Mark 16:15-17
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.
As stark as those words are, I don't see how people maneuver around it and the other verses above and HONESTLY come to the conclusion that ALL will be saved.
It sure feels better to say that and may be more comforting to say that but frankly it's like promoting denial to cancer patients.
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16
Senior Member
Where in the Bible does it say that ANYONE is "going to heaven"?
Senior Member
First of all, Christ never said the word, "hell" - that's an erroneoustranslation by certain Bible translators who had an agenda - in fact, you'll never find the word, Hell in the original greek or the hebrew texts.
The following scene depicts a very serious disappointment for God‘s unfaithful children, called ―sons of the kingdom‖ in Mt. 8:12 and ―unprofit-able servants in Mt. 25:30. In no case, is it proven to be an eternal state. In fact, the context indicates the contrary:
There will be weeping and grinding of teeth (bitter regret) when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves turned outside. And men from east and west, from north and south, will come to take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Yes, there are those now last who will be first, and those now first who will be last (Lu. 13:28-30 JB).
It is likely the ones thrown out are the very ones who came first but were not ready. Perhaps they came without their wedding garment (Mt. 22:11-12)? Once their judgment outside runs its course, they will return as the ―first which shall be last. Note the compassionate heart of Christ in what He says just a few verses further:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate [with weeping and gnashing of teeth?]; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ―Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD (Lu. 13:34, 35)!
The Lord said they would not see Him ―until the time comes when they say, ―Blessed is He.… This is separation for a season, not eternity. Might those left desolate not be the ―first who are thrown out? Though thrown out for a time, they return as ―last (Lu. 13:30) after they have paid the last cent and washed their robes (Mt. 5:26; 18:34-35; Lu. 12:59). ―Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city (Re. 22:14 NAS). ―Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning (Ps. 30:5). ―God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol‖ (Ps. 49:15 NAS).
John 3:17-19
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
...
This scripture has NOTHING to do with "hell" either - it's talking about life and death... of course he who doesn't believe is condemned - we're all condemned to death from the fall of Adam.
What is the wages of sin, anyways? Most Christians say "hell" but the Bible tells us that the wages of sin is, WHAT? That's right.. death...
It was the same thing God told Adam: "For in the day you partake of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, you will surely, what? That's right.. DIE.. he didn't say, "In that day you will surely go to hell", did he?
John 3:16 should never be separated from 3:17. ―For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him (CLT). ―May‖ here does not mean ―perhaps or ―maybe.
No one, while in unbelief, is experiencing ―eonian life, a quality of life according to Christ in Jn. 17:3. This is in the present tense. Unbelief is not a hopeless condition, or no one could ever be saved. We were all in unbelief. We are all born ―perishing.
We are dead until God makes us alive in Christ (Ep. 2:1). ―Let the dead bury their dead‖ (Mt. 8:22). ―She who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives‖ (1Ti. 5:6). To ―be perishing is not a hopeless condition, but is the prerequisite to ―being saved. ―The Son of Man has come to save that which was lost (perished) (Mt. 18:11). ―Jesus came into the world to save sinners (1Ti. 1:15). The issue is this: Has God limited Himself to save sinners only in this life? (See page 65). Christ is ―Lord of both the dead and the living! God ―is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him (Ro. 14:9; Lu. 20:38). ―It is not His will for any to be ―lost (perish), but for all to come to repentance (2Pe. 3:9 NEB). However, ―life eonian is not everyone‘s experience in this world. ―Life eonian is a quality of life. It is ―knowing God, said Christ (Jn. 17:3). And what has God said about ―knowing Himself? ―For all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more (He. 8:11-12). This applies to all. God is not partial (Ro. 2:11; 10:12; 11:26, 32; Ac. 10: 34-36; Ep. 2:14; 3:6). John 3:16-17 does not say or mean that anyone will perish forever. ―For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him! (Jn. 3:17 NIV). God‘s purpose is to save the whole world! See Jn. 12:47.
Jn. 3:36: ―He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him (CLT). No one, while in unbelief is seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him. This indignation does not mean that God does not love that person, but the converse. It is an expression of His love working in that life to affect change. For if this passage presented a hopeless scenario, then none of us could ever be saved. We were all at one time in unbelief. And ―God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all (Ro. 11:32 KJV). And remember, faith is God‘s work in us. We have nothing to boast of. The ―gift referred to in Ep. 2:8 clearly and unmistakably refers back to both salvation and faith in the Greek. Faith is God‘s gift! It is not of works lest anyone should boast. We are His workmanship!
Where in the Bible does it tell us that the Lake of Fire is hell? It doesn't.. that's made up by man .. John tells us that the Lake of Fire is the second death.. it's the death of death... nothing to do with "hell"..
Re. 20:14 defines the ―lake of fire as both the ―second death and ―death and Hades cast into it. Death cast into fire is the death of death; the last enemy destroyed! (1Co.. 15:26). I see this as also dying to our sinful self (Rom. 6). Once God, as a Consuming Fire, consumes the dross in us, destroys the death in us if you will (Ro. 8:6; 1Ti. 5:6; 2Co. 5:14-15), we come forth in newness of life, a new creation! (Ro. 6:4; 2 Co. 5:17). This conforms with the Gehenna ―until judgment of Mt. 5:22-26
―Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death‖ (Re. 20:14). The death of death! The last enemy is destroyed!
―The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (Rev. 21:8). These are having their ―part which harmonizes perfectly with ―according to works, but is totally inconsistent with infinite penalty. For how can what is infinite be ―part of something greater? The closer we look at the language of judgment in Scripture, the more it contradicts the prevalent view.
―They are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image‖ (Rev. 14:11b CLT). This refers to the time prior to their judgment as it is unthinkable they would continue to worship the beast while being chastised for doing so. Even if they did, it indicates nothing about the duration of their judgment. In addition, as we said concerning ―in part, and ―according to works, the concept of ―day and night‖ pertains to the time realm, and is inconsistent with eternity.
Torture is tumpaniz (Strong‘s #5178), used once in the NT: ―…others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection… (He. 11:35). The Greek word associated with ―torment in the fiery lake is not tumpanizō, but basanizo (Strong‘s # 928). ―Torment (basanizo) is used of a sick person, of a ship ―tossed with waves; ―toiling in rowing; ―vexed regarding Lot; birth—―pains (Mt. 8:6; 14:24; Mk. 6:48; 2Pe. 2:8; Rev. 12:2).
The Greek-English Keyword Concordance translates the Greek word theion as both ―brimstone‖(sulfur) and ―divine. It reads: ―Sulphur (divine), was so called because it was used in the lustrations [purification ceremo-nies] of false worship. The Word Study Concordance has ―brimstone‖ (Strong‘s #2303; thīon) derived from thīos (Strong‘s #2304 which the KJV and NIV both translate as ―Divine--Ac. 17:29; 2 Pe. 1:3-4). Vine says theion (brimstone) originally denoted ―fire from heaven, and goes on to say that ―sulfur was used in pagan purifications. So all the sources agree here. The lake of fire and brimstone means a lake of divine purification.
Consider the references to this ―lake of fire, called the ―second death. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by it. (Re. 2:11). Being ―injured by something is a far cry from being infinitely tormented.
He that believes shall be damned? Damned to what? Where does it say they will suffer eternal torment? Nowhere in that passage does it say what you're implying..
Senior Member
and from that you reach the conclusion that everyone is going to heaven?......do you believe there's going to be a resurrection of the dead?.......what do you call the place where they stand once it's happened?......does it matter if we call that place "heaven", or "new earth", or "Disneyland"........
...full immersion.....
Senior Member
I hate to be the one defending Hell but , i can't honestly read the text and do otherwise.
OK I see you talking but your kinda stretching.
lets see if I can boil this down.
you say there is a "place of torment" that some people go to but it's only temporary. But it's not called hell and it's Not a lake of painful Fire. And People ARE BETTER OFF if they go to this Unamed place of Torment because they get a "BETTER resurrection" for going to UNNAMED painless suffering than those that believed. Even though the verse you use to promote that last bit is CLEARLY talking about Martyred BELIEVERS and PROPHETS. And finally you say those that don't go strait to heaven-paradise- or the good place instead go in to a temporary FIRE of Painless purification.
Wow if I had tried to make my points with the stretching your doing of definitions you'd have none of it. I'll come back later and post to more details but I'll touch on a few Items in your breakdown.
You mention Brimstone and say it's purification mm OK fine what about the word a few words before in Rev 14 and Rev 21... Torment?
the meaning there is, well, Torment:
from Strongs"1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head "
Rev 20
" 8and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' "
your interpretation of the "second death" is novel and not born out from the context or other scripture. The lake of fire mentioned here is has to be in in context with the lake of fire mentioned earlier where the beast, false prophet and Satan are cast and are in "torment" "for ever and ever". to say otherwise is to MAKE UP an interpretation not based on the plain text.
for ever and ever is a long time for "purification". And benign purification is not usually thought of as being part of God's "WRATH" "INDIGNATION" as the fire and brimstone is protraied in Rev 14. the whole section there is about destruction and punishment in this life and the next.
I'm not sure how you can misconscrew the context and ignore words like that that give you a solid sense of the meaning. Despite your, or anyones, natural disposition to not want to believe it.
Rev 20 say this about the 2nd Death
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
...
14and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; 15and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
And sadly there is NOWHERE in the Revelation after this that we read of anyone returing from the "Lake of Fire".
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16
Senior Member
Before you can begin to fully understand what's being said here, you have to realize a few truths:
1. There is no such word as "hell" in the Hebrew or Greek.
2. There is no word for the english word, "eternal" used in the greek - the word in the greek is eonian or "age lasting"... it simply means to "last for an age" i.e. an unspecified amount of time.
I'd also suggest we start there before we get too carried away bouncing all over the place.
Senior Member
1.
"no such word as Hell in Hebrew or Greek."
That's kind of a soft technicality isn't it?
There's no such word as "God" in Hebrew or Greek. But the I think it's safe to safe the the concept is there. "God" is translated from several different words in Hebrew and Greek as well. But we get a real picture of the person while still using the term. The Word "Hell" is similar.
When Jesus used the word Geenna, Translated Hell in English, he said that it was a place where both body and soul could be destroyed. A place where God could cast a person after they were dead. A place where "the fire was not quenched" . Revelations says Lake of Fire.
Sounds like Hell to me.
2.
Eternal = "For ever and Ever" = "eonian" or "aiōn"
You say that it could mean only an "Age" however every other time it's used in Revelation about God it means Eternal. "God who lives "FOR EVER AND EVER". Are you prepared to say that God dies after some "unspecified amount of time" as well?
"For ever and Ever" May not be the word eternal but I think it's honest and reasonable to say that it is the concept forever or eternal especially sense it's repeated "for EVER and EVER"
and that what it means elsewhere is Eternal
and there is NOTHING in the context of the lake of Fire, Hell or Hades verses that implies that it means anything different.
Again I read no where that anybody ever returned from the Lake of Fire, purified or otherwise.
It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God. 1 Peter 2:16
Senior Member
Do you know what Gehenna is? It's the Valley of Hinnom - you can still go there to this day...
Here's a video that will help you in your understanding of the word: "Hell"
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2.
Eternal = "For ever and Ever" = "eonian" or "aiōn"
You say that it could mean only an "Age" however every other time it's used in Revelation about God it means Eternal. "God who lives "FOR EVER AND EVER". Are you prepared to say that God dies after some "unspecified amount of time" as well?
"For ever and Ever" May not be the word eternal but I think it's honest and reasonable to say that it is the concept forever or eternal especially sense it's repeated "for EVER and EVER"
and that what it means elsewhere is Eternal
and there is NOTHING in the context of the lake of Fire, Hell or Hades verses that implies that it means anything different.
Again I read no where that anybody ever returned from the Lake of Fire, purified or otherwise.[/QUOTE]
It would help if you read translations that didn't erroneously translate things...
Here is the passage in Rev 15:7 from Young's Literal Translation:
"..and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages;"
This scripture is clearly not talking about the life-span of God, however, the context of what John's is talking about is his rule over that age...
For further clarification on this word, I'd encourage you to check out Titus 1:2:
KJV reads: In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Now to be consistent, the word "eternal" should be used in both the first part -which it is.. and the word, "World" should also be "eternal" here's the link to the Strong's entry on this passage, note that the word "eternal" in the first half and the word "world" in the second half have the same notation (166)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Tts&c=1&v=2&t=KJV#top
In 1909 hope 1680 of eternal 166 life 2222, which 3739God 2316, that cannot lie 893, promised 1861 before4253 the world 166 began 5550;
Clearly, Young's Literal shows this verse properly as:
upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,
We see here that the word, eternal is a gross mistranslation and that Young's has it right..
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