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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonStryk72 View Post
    Actually, marriage was considered an inherent right as of the Constitution. And by what you're saying, we might as well throw regular old marriage out the window, cause that ends badly 2/3 of the time these days. You really want to go there, we can go there, but there won't be anything left to do with your life by the time we're. I can easily use your logic there as a means to illegalize drinking, smoking, guns, marriage, sex, driving, flying, the list goes on and on.

    the government has NO right to tell us how to live our lives. None at all, unless you can show it to me in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.

    Yes, the bible does mention incest back in Genesis, and if we want really want to go down that road, I can oblige again. Everyone on this forum would be "put to death" before we hit the end (if you've ever eaten meat on a Friday or cursed at your parents, prepare to die). Actually, if you want to go biblical, you have no right judge, or make a call on what God would think or say on the matter, both of those were denied directly Jesus.

    Now, as to a point, you are telling me that to consenting women having sex with each other is exactly the same as raping a child? Those are one and the same? This seems to be your claim.

    The attempts to put homosexuality up there with bestiality, incest, and pedophilia is the most debase sort of argument, one used to paint them as vile creatures as opposed to human beings.
    I was thinking the same thing with the exception that I disagree with your assumption that marriage is an inherent Right of the Constitution.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    FYI
    Obama riding Bush train to removing all civil liberties ...for your safety

    http://www.activistpost.com/2011/12/...istration.html

    20 Examples of the Obama Administration Assault on Domestic Civil Liberties

    December 2, 2011

    By Bill Quigley - Activist Post
    ..Here are twenty examples of serious assaults on the domestic rights to
    freedom of speech,
    freedom of assembly,
    freedom of association,
    the right to privacy,
    the right to a fair trial,
    freedom of religion,
    and freedom of conscience
    that have occurred since the Obama administration has assumed power. Consider these and then decide if there is any fundamental difference between the Bush presidency and the Obama presidency in the area of domestic civil liberties....

    Patriot Act

    On May 27, 2011, President Obama, over widespread bipartisan objections, approved a Congressional four year extension of controversial parts of the Patriot Act that were set to expire. In March of 2010, Obama signed a similar extension of the Patriot Act for one year. These provisions allow the government, with permission from a special secret court, to seize records without the owner’s knowledge, conduct secret surveillance of suspicious people who have no known ties to terrorist groups and to obtain secret roving wiretaps on people.

    Criminalization of Dissent and Militarization of the Police
    ...Protest police sport ninja turtle-like outfits and are accompanied by helicopters, special tanks, and even sound blasting vehicles first used in Iraq. Wireless fingerprint scanners first used by troops in Iraq are now being utilized by local police departments to check motorists. Facial recognition software introduced in war zones is now being used in Arizona and other jurisdictions. Drones just like the ones used in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan are being used along the Mexican and Canadian borders. These activities continue to expand under the Obama administration.

    Wiretaps
    Wiretaps for oral, electronic or wire communications, approved by federal and state courts, are at an all-time high. Wiretaps in year 2010 were up 34% from 2009, according to the Administrative Office of the US Courts.

    Criminalization of Speech
    Muslims in the US have been targeted by the Obama Department of Justice for inflammatory things they said or published on the internet. First Amendment protection of freedom of speech, most recently stated in a 1969 Supreme Court decision, Brandenberg v Ohio, says the government cannot punish inflammatory speech, even if it advocates violence unless it is likely to incite or produce such action. A Pakistani resident legally living in the US was indicted by the DOJ in September 2011 for uploading a video on YouTube. The DOJ said the video was supportive of terrorists even though nothing on the video called for violence. ...

    Domestic Government Spying on Muslim Communities
    In activities that offend freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and several other laws, the NYPD and the CIA have partnered to conduct intelligence operations against Muslim communities in New York and elsewhere. The CIA, which is prohibited from spying on Americans, works with the police on “human mapping”, commonly known as racial and religious profiling to spy on the Muslim community. Under the Obama administration, the Associated Press reported in August 2011, informants known as “mosque crawlers,” monitor sermons, bookstores and cafes.

    Top Secret America
    In July 2010, the Washington Post released “Top Secret America,” a series of articles detailing the results of a two year investigation into the rapidly expanding world of homeland security, intelligence and counter-terrorism. It found 1,271 government organizations and 1,931 private companies work on counterterrorism, homeland security and intelligence at about 10,000 locations across the US. Every single day, the National Security Agency intercepts and stores more than 1.7 billion emails, phone calls and other types of communications. The FBI has a secret database named Guardian that contains reports of suspicious activities filed from federal, state and local law enforcement. According to the Washington Post the FBI Guardian database contained 161,948 files as of December 2009. From that database there have been 103 full investigations and at least five arrests the FBI reported. The Obama administration has done nothing to cut back on the secrecy.

    Other Domestic Spying
    There are at least 72 fusion centers across the US which collect local domestic police information and merge it into multi-jurisdictional intelligence centers, according to recent report by the ACLU. These centers share information from federal, state and local law enforcement and some private companies to secretly spy on Americans. These all continue to grow and flourish under the Obama administration.

    Abusive FBI Intelligence Operations
    The Electronic Frontier Foundation documented thousands of violations of the law by FBI intelligence operations from 2001 to 2008 and estimate that there are over 4000 such violations each year. President Obama issued an executive order to strengthen the Intelligence Oversight Board, an agency which is supposed to make sure the FBI, the CIA and other spy agencies are following the law. No other changes have been noticed.

    Wikileaks
    The publication of US diplomatic cables by Wikileaks and then by main stream news outlets sparked condemnation by Obama administration officials who said the publication of accurate government documents was nothing less than an attack on the United States. The Attorney General announced a criminal investigation and promised “this is not saber rattling.” Government officials warned State Department employees not to download the publicly available documents. A State Department official and Columbia officials warned students that discussing Wikileaks or linking documents to social networking sites could jeopardize their chances of getting a government job, a position that lasted several days until reversed by other Columbia officials. At the time this was written, the Obama administration continued to try to find ways to prosecute the publishers of Wikileaks.

    Censorship of Books by the CIA
    In 2011, the CIA demanded extensive cuts from a memoir by former FBI agent Ali H. Soufan, in part because it made the agency look bad. Soufan’s book detailed the use of torture methods on captured prisoners and mistakes that led to 9-11. Similarly, a 2011 book on interrogation methods by former CIA agent Glenn Carle was subjected to extensive black outs. The CIA under the Obama administration continues its push for censorship.

    Blocking Publication of Photos of U.S. Soldiers Abusing Prisoners
    In May 2009, President Obama reversed his position of three weeks earlier and refused to release photos of US soldiers abusing prisoners. In April 2009, the US Department of Defense told a federal court that it would release the photos. The photos were part of nearly 200 criminal investigations into abuses by soldiers.



    Technological Spying

    The Bay Area Transit System, in August 2011, hearing of rumors to protest against fatal shootings by their police, shut down cell service in four stations. Western companies sell email surveillance software to repressive regimes in China, Libya and Syria to use against protestors and human rights activists. Surveillance cameras monitor residents in high crime areas, street corners and other governmental buildings. Police department computers ask for and receive daily lists from utility companies with addresses and names of every home address in their area. Computers in police cars scan every license plate of every car they drive by. The Obama administration has made no serious effort to cut back these new technologies of spying on citizens.

    Use of “State Secrets” to Shield Government and Others from review
    When the Bush government was caught hiring private planes from a Boeing subsidiary to transport people for torture to other countries, the Bush administration successfully asked the federal trial court to dismiss a case by detainees tortured because having a trial would disclose “state secrets” and threaten national security. When President Obama was elected, the state secrets defense was reaffirmed in arguments before a federal appeals court. It continues to be a mainstay of the Obama administration effort to cloak their actions and the actions of the Bush administration in secrecy.

    In another case, it became clear in 2005 that the Bush FBI was avoiding the Fourth Amendment requirement to seek judicial warrants to get telephone and internet records by going directly to the phone companies and asking for the records. The government and the companies, among other methods of surveillance, set up secret rooms where phone and internet traffic could be monitored. In 2008, the government granted the companies amnesty for violating the privacy rights of their customers. Customers sued anyway. But the Obama administration successfully argued to the district court, among other defenses, that disclosure would expose state secrets and should be dismissed. The case is now on appeal.

    Material Support
    The Obama administration successfully asked the US Supreme Court not to apply the First Amendment and to allow the government to criminalize humanitarian aid and legal activities of people providing advice or support to foreign organizations which are listed on the government list as terrorist organizations. The material support law can now be read to penalize people who provide humanitarian aid or human rights advocacy. The Obama administration Solicitor General argued to the court “when you help Hezbollah build homes, you are also helping Hezbollah build bombs.” The Court agreed with the Obama argument that national security trumps free speech in these circumstances.

    Chicago Anti-war Grand Jury Investigation
    In September 2010, FBI agents raided the homes of seven peace activists in Chicago, Minneapolis and Grand Rapids seizing computers, cell phones, passports, and records. More than 20 anti-war activists were issued federal grand jury subpoenas and more were questioned across the country. Some of those targeted were members of local labor unions, others members of organizations like the Arab American Action Network, the Columbia Action Network, the Twin Cities Anti-War Campaign and the Freedom Road Socialist Organization. Many were active internationally and visited resistance groups in Columbia and Palestine. Subpoenas directed people to bring anything related to trips to Columbia, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Israel or the Middle East. In 2011, the home of a Los Angeles activist was raided and he was questioned about his connections with the September 2010 activists. All of these investigations are directed by the Obama administration.

    Punishing Whistleblowers
    The Obama administration has prosecuted five whistleblowers under the Espionage Act, more than all the other administrations in history put together. They charged a National Security Agency advisor with ten felonies under the Espionage Act for telling the press that government eavesdroppers were wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on misguided and failed projects. After their case collapsed, the government, which was chastised by the federal judge as engaging in unconscionable conduct allowed him to plead to a misdemeanor and walk. The administration has also prosecuted former members of the CIA, the State Department, and the FBI. They even tried to subpoena a journalist and one of the lawyers for the whistleblowers.

    Bradley Manning
    Army private Bradley Manning is accused of leaking thousands of government documents to Wikileaks. These documents expose untold numbers of lies by US government officials, wrongful killings of civilians, policies to ignore torture in Iraq, information about who is held at Guantanamo, cover ups of drone strikes and abuse of children and much more damaging information about US malfeasance. Though Daniel Ellsberg and other whistleblowers say Bradley is an American hero, the US government has jailed him and is threatening him with charges of espionage which may be punished by the death penalty. For months Manning was held in solitary confinement and forced by guards to sleep naked. When asked about how Manning was being held, President Obama personally defended the conditions of his confinement saying he had been assured they were appropriate and meeting our basic standards.

    Solitary Confinement
    At least 20,000 people are in solitary confinement in US jails and prisons, some estimate several times that many. Despite the fact that federal, state and local prisons and jails do not report actual numbers, academic research estimates tens of thousands are kept in cells for 23 to 24 hours a day in supermax units and prisons, in lockdown, in security housing units, in “the hole”, and in special management units or administrative segregation. Human Rights Watch reports that one-third to one-half of the prisoners in solitary are likely mentally ill. In May 2006, the UN Committee on Torture concluded that the United States should “review the regimen imposed on detainees in supermax prisons, in particular, the practice of prolonged isolation.” The Obama administration has taken no steps to cut back on the use of solitary confinement in federal, state or local jails and prisons.

    Special Administrative Measures
    Special Administrative Measures (SAMS) are extra harsh conditions of confinement imposed on prisoners (including pre-trial detainees) by the Attorney General. The U.S. Bureau of Prisons imposes restrictions such segregation and isolation from all other prisoners, and limitation or denial of contact with the outside world such as: no visitors except attorneys, no contact with news media, no use of phone, no correspondence, no contact with family, no communication with guards, 24 hour video surveillance and monitoring. The DOJ admitted in 2009 that several dozen prisoners, including several pre-trial detainees, mostly Muslims, were kept incommunicado under SAMS. If anything, the use of SAMS has increased under the Obama administration.

    These twenty concrete examples document a sustained assault on domestic civil liberties in the United States under the Obama administration. Rhetoric aside, how different has Obama been from Bush in this area?

    Bill is a human rights lawyer and law professor at Loyola University New Orleans. He also serves as Associate Legal Director of the Center for Constitutional Rights. He can be reached at Quigley77@gmail.com
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    FYI
    Obama riding Bush train to removing all civil liberties ...for your safety

    http://www.activistpost.com/2011/12/...istration.html
    You were the inspiration for the movie Conspiracy Theory , weren't you?


    But , I do have to admit I find it amusing that the very people who screamed bloody murder when Bush took these steps defend them now that Obama has done so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog View Post
    You were the inspiration for the movie Conspiracy Theory , weren't you?


    But , I do have to admit I find it amusing that the very people who screamed bloody murder when Bush took these steps defend them now that Obama has done so.
    Me and a few others are screaming about both of them.
    but I'm not sure what conspiracy theory has to do with the post.
    "It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents." James Madison .
    I mean we had more freedoms and now we've got less. the gov't could not do "X" now they can. It was illegal for them to "Y" now it's written into the law or assumed they do.
    the supposed motivation is our safety -true, false or mixed- the result is that we have lossed freedoms.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    but I'm not sure what conspiracy theory has to do with the post.
    Because 90% of what you post is anti-government. 90% of that is rhetoric and assumptions. You read into every little thing you can possibly find to criticize our government. Do they do shitty things? Yup. Have they even done things that might be unconstitutional and need to be reversed? Absolutely. But if one were to solely follow your posts, you would think we live in North Korea.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Because 90% of what you post is anti-government. 90% of that is rhetoric and assumptions. You read into every little thing you can possibly find to criticize our government. Do they do shitty things? Yup. Have they even done things that might be unconstitutional and need to be reversed? Absolutely. But if one were to solely follow your posts, you would think we live in North Korea.
    that's funny, rsr and others post more rhetoric and assumptions about the democrats being the death of America, evil, stupid and crazy and most people here seem to agree based on some real evidence, but a lot of it is just rude insults. But the same level of scrutiny is rarely given to republicans or the military. Most here would say they are anti BIG gov't as well, and call it wrong too. But 90% of what i post is fact based. real crimes real unconstitutional activities. A few are in the form of 1st steps, in the wrong direction but folks here don't mind blowing people up for "planning" terror acts before they strike us or attacking whole coutries BEFORE they have a weapon that might hurt us one day. A few loud comments on bad domestic laws or acts before they become ubiquitous seems a reasonable response too me. Some things I've mentioned are huge and just been deied or ignored. But Thankfully we are not North Korea but every year we are moving in that direction. Somewhere I got this weird idea that public officials, police and the military should follow the constitution they swore to defend. if that's makes me anti-gov't then what has the gov't become?
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    that's funny, rsr and others post more rhetoric and assumptions about the democrats being the death of America, evil, stupid and crazy and most people here seem to agree based on some real evidence, but a lot of it is just rude insults. But the same level of scrutiny is rarely given to republicans or the military. Most here would say they are anti BIG gov't as well, and call it wrong too. But 90% of what i post is fact based. real crimes real unconstitutional activities. A few are in the form of 1st steps, in the wrong direction but folks here don't mind blowing people up for "planning" terror acts before they strike us or attacking whole coutries BEFORE they have a weapon that might hurt us one day. A few loud comments on bad domestic laws or acts before they become ubiquitous seems a reasonable response too me. Some things I've mentioned are huge and just been deied or ignored. But Thankfully we are not North Korea but every year we are moving in that direction. Somewhere I got this weird idea that public officials, police and the military should follow the constitution they swore to defend. if that's makes me anti-gov't then what has the gov't become?
    So you're complaining that some of us are okay with being proactive when it comes to fighting terrorism? Disgusting.

    By the way, my oath was to defend this country, AND the COTUS. Not one or the other. And since the COTUS does in fact NOT mention terrorism, there is no constitutional limits on dealing with them.

    PS you're belief that RSR is a kook does not then translate to mean that it is okay for YOU to be a kook as well.

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