Back Sharia law or go to hell

[Marcus Aurelius]

It's non unusual for people to be pardoned for Eid in the Muslim world. Doesn't the Queen also pardon people on her birthday or something?

The Queen of England is a figurehead. She has no political power. That all rests in Parliament.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I find it a interesting how Jafar seems to think everyone else is wrong, all the time... yet he thinks he is always right, all the time.

I sense a little narcissism in jafar.

[aboutime]

I find it a interesting how Jafar seems to think everyone else is wrong, all the time... yet he thinks he is always right, all the time.

I sense a little narcissism in jafar.

Marcus. The endless attempts by jafar to prove such things cannot be 'narcissism'. That only applies to Human beings, since animals never brag, or look into a mirror to Impress themselves. Especially the Terrorist supportive kind of animals who secretly would prefer. YOU AND I were dead.

[jafar00]

I find it a interesting how Jafar seems to think everyone else is wrong, all the time... yet he thinks he is always right, all the time.

I sense a little narcissism in jafar.

You're wrong about Islam and I am trying my best to help you understand. That is not narcissism.

Marcus. The endless attempts by jafar to prove such things cannot be 'narcissism'. That only applies to Human beings, since animals never brag, or look into a mirror to Impress themselves. Especially the Terrorist supportive kind of animals who secretly would prefer. YOU AND I were dead.

Which animal am I? You're such a charmer.

[aboutime]

You're wrong about Islam and I am trying my best to help you understand. That is not narcissism.



Which animal am I? You're such a charmer.

I see anyone who pretends to dislike terrorism, but secretly supports it to gain that narcissism as a Deadly Animal. Beneath human, and far below Whale dung. Does that answer your question?

I am not a charmer. Charmer's are also phony, False Prophets. Much like you.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

I find it a interesting how Jafar seems to think everyone else is wrong, all the time... yet he thinks he is always right, all the time.

I sense a little narcissism in jafar.

You're wrong about Islam and I am trying my best to help you understand. That is not narcissism.



Which animal am I? You're such a charmer.

Actually, it is you who are wrong about Christianity, and we are just trying our best to help you.

[aboutime]

Actually, it is you who are wrong about Christianity, and we are just trying our best to help you.

Marcus. Keep this sentence in mind when responding to 'jafar'.


"It is impossible to hold an Intelligent conversation with anyone who has Little, or No Intelligence."

No matter what you, or I say to jafar. His background, and life-long training of hearing someone tell him ONLY HE IS RIGHT, and everyone else IS WRONG.
Nothing we say means anything to jafar. That's how Brainwashing works so effectively, and jafar continues to prove how well it works.

[Drummond]

Well, he is unknown around these parts and unknown to every Egyptian I have asked. I know it is easy to think that he is well known if he is plastered all over your local media.

We just haven't heard of him.

Do no Egyptians ever visit YouTube ? A collection of video links detailing his interviews - and rants - is there, just waiting to be examined by all who care to.

All I see is that the video was all about the right thing. Calling Muslims to be good citizens and not join in on the riots. Or would you have preferred him to call all the Muslims out to make the riots bigger?

You saw the speaker make no reference to so-called 'deficiencies' of Western culture ? REALLY ?You heard him make no attempt to sell Islamic 'standards' as offering something 'superior' ? Then I suggest you view it again.

The point I found particularly objectionable was that it all amounted to a sanitising of Islam, and this within a context of exploitation of a time of social misery. As I've pointed out already .. a FAIR, BALANCED video should also have made references to Islam's various cruelties and barbarities. Those offered by the punishments from Sharia Law. Or, a consideration of all the terrorism it spawns.

What, in your view, Jafar, was worse ? The Tottenham riot .. or, say, 9/11 .. ??

Ignoring the insults (as I often do around here), the law in Malaysia is that if a Muslim is caught drinking alcohol, they can be punished.

Including JAIL time for it, evidently. Also including (even if it was the first judgment of its type) the option in their law to see a CANING administered !!

And for what ? DRINKING SOME BEER ????

I don't know why you are going on about a pub in London.

Well .. why not ? Didn't you say you frequented that pub ?

To be fair, you never stated that you drank in that pub .. it would've been curious indeed if you had !! Even so .. I'm rather struck by the thought of you, as a loyal Muslim, who presumably must forever see imbibing alcoholic beverages as 'sinful', sitting around in what both of us will know was usually a crowded pub, totally surrounded by such, ahem, 'terrible sinners', OUT OF CHOICE, DURING YOUR BREAK TIMES !!

Jafar .. really .. how ever did you tolerate any of it, much less deliberately CHOOSE such surroundings ? I mean .. they were all 'disgusting sinners' .. eh ??

Now THAT, Jafar, is funny !!!

Last I checked, drinking is legal in the UK. Drinking is also legal for non Muslims in Malaysia BTW.

Well, quite. I mean, to be fair, it's not as though it's truly a 'sin', or anything ...

It's non unusual for people to be pardoned for Eid in the Muslim world.

I'll take your word for it. Though, international pressure helps, too ...

Doesn't the Queen also pardon people on her birthday or something?

Not that I'm aware of. It's not as though she can boast of having powers equivalent to some other ruling monarchs in the world.

That said .. I have in mind that she's not just Queen of England, but also of Australia, where you came from ? Possibly her duties vary when applied to your country. I can't say 'yes' or 'no' to that one.

Muslims are required to follow the laws where they reside if in a Non Muslim country anyway as long as those laws do not contradict God's decree such as anti hijab laws or forbidding prayer.

I basically accept your statement, but simultaneously view it as just a little disingenuous. In practical terms, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Muslims to adopt a 'headbutting' approach to legal systems they don't like. HOWEVER .. this is not the whole of the story. I've already posted you a Telegraph link showing what concerns some of us have about Muslim encroachments, even to the extent of 'creeping Islamisation' being perceived as an ongoing threat.

Here's the point. Muslims, in the main, may obey local laws. Nonetheless, they ALSO have community pressure groups pressing for deferences to be made to Islamic practises.

Take the example of Waltham Forest (an East London suburb). It has a large Muslim contingent, as you may be aware of yourself. There, posters were put on walls, trees and suchlike, declaring it to be a 'Muslim area', where strict Muslim behaviours were demanded (e.g prohibitions on public music). Now, the police came along and removed those posters .. nonetheless, there was a case, right there, of Muslim hardliner types 'trying it on'.

So I ask this: how many Muslims in that locality were recent arrivals to the UK, believing that all of that nonsense was fully sanctioned by British law ? Because, Jafar .. and as my link from the article ALSO made clear .. Muslims may attend Sharia courts in the mistaken belief that Sharia Laws always have the backing of British law.

It is my understanding anyway that Sharia courts in the UK abide by UK law and only deal with things like marriage.

I understand that they do more than that. Divorce is also a 'province' of theirs. Also, advice and judgments on fiscal matters.

Talaq divorce, Jafar. Because of a job I was involved with decades ago, I just happen to have a cursory knowledge about Talaq divorces. This, Jafar and folks, is a somewhat barbaric practice which permits a man to stand, in front of witnesses, and humiliate his soon-to-be-divorced wife and say 'I divorce thee' three times. After the third recitation, in Islamic law, the divorce is considered final.

I UNDERSTAND THAT ONLY MEN HAVE THIS 'RIGHT'. WOMEN ARE NOT PERMITTED TO DO THIS THEMSELVES.

Now, to a Sharia court, Talaq divorces are recognised. In British law, THEY ARE NOT. So, what are 'divorced' Muslims to do ? Respect Sharia courts, or instead respect the reality of British law, as applicable to all citizens in the UK ? How many Sharia courts will be willing to admit that a Talaq divorce has no actual value, or meaning ???

It's a greater problem than that. Sharia practises often differ from what British law will recognise or permit. As my Daily Telegraph article pointed out, not all Sharia courts are entirely honest about British law. Some Muslims attending those courts are misled into thinking that Sharia courts have a greater standing in British law than in fact they do.

Now, folks .. HOW'S ALL THAT FOR EVIDENCE OF THE MUSLIM WILLINGNESS TO INTEGRATE ?

[aboutime]

Do no Egyptians ever visit YouTube ? A collection of video links detailing his interviews - and rants - is there, just waiting to be examined by all who care to.



You saw the speaker make no reference to so-called 'deficiencies' of Western culture ? REALLY ?You heard him make no attempt to sell Islamic 'standards' as offering something 'superior' ? Then I suggest you view it again.

The point I found particularly objectionable was that it all amounted to a sanitising of Islam, and this within a context of exploitation of a time of social misery. As I've pointed out already .. a FAIR, BALANCED video should also have made references to Islam's various cruelties and barbarities. Those offered by the punishments from Sharia Law. Or, a consideration of all the terrorism it spawns.

What, in your view, Jafar, was worse ? The Tottenham riot .. or, say, 9/11 .. ??



Including JAIL time for it, evidently. Also including (even if it was the first judgment of its type) the option in their law to see a CANING administered !!

And for what ? DRINKING SOME BEER ????



Well .. why not ? Didn't you say you frequented that pub ?

To be fair, you never stated that you drank in that pub .. it would've been curious indeed if you had !! Even so .. I'm rather struck by the thought of you, as a loyal Muslim, who presumably must forever see imbibing alcoholic beverages as 'sinful', sitting around in what both of us will know was usually a crowded pub, totally surrounded by such, ahem, 'terrible sinners', OUT OF CHOICE, DURING YOUR BREAK TIMES !!

Jafar .. really .. how ever did you tolerate any of it, much less deliberately CHOOSE such surroundings ? I mean .. they were all 'disgusting sinners' .. eh ??

Now THAT, Jafar, is funny !!!



Well, quite. I mean, to be fair, it's not as though it's truly a 'sin', or anything ...



I'll take your word for it. Though, international pressure helps, too ...



Not that I'm aware of. It's not as though she can boast of having powers equivalent to some other ruling monarchs in the world.

That said .. I have in mind that she's not just Queen of England, but also of Australia, where you came from ? Possibly her duties vary when applied to your country. I can't say 'yes' or 'no' to that one.



I basically accept your statement, but simultaneously view it as just a little disingenuous. In practical terms, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Muslims to adopt a 'headbutting' approach to legal systems they don't like. HOWEVER .. this is not the whole of the story. I've already posted you a Telegraph link showing what concerns some of us have about Muslim encroachments, even to the extent of 'creeping Islamisation' being perceived as an ongoing threat.

Here's the point. Muslims, in the main, may obey local laws. Nonetheless, they ALSO have community pressure groups pressing for deferences to be made to Islamic practises.

Take the example of Waltham Forest (an East London suburb). It has a large Muslim contingent, as you may be aware of yourself. There, posters were put on walls, trees and suchlike, declaring it to be a 'Muslim area', where strict Muslim behaviours were demanded (e.g prohibitions on public music). Now, the police came along and removed those posters .. nonetheless, there was a case, right there, of Muslim hardliner types 'trying it on'.

So I ask this: how many Muslims in that locality were recent arrivals to the UK, believing that all of that nonsense was fully sanctioned by British law ? Because, Jafar .. and as my link from the article ALSO made clear .. Muslims may attend Sharia courts in the mistaken belief that Sharia Laws always have the backing of British law.



I understand that they do more than that. Divorce is also a 'province' of theirs. Also, advice and judgments on fiscal matters.

Talaq divorce, Jafar. Because of a job I was involved with decades ago, I just happen to have a cursory knowledge about Talaq divorces. This, Jafar and folks, is a somewhat barbaric practice which permits a man to stand, in front of witnesses, and humiliate his soon-to-be-divorced wife and say 'I divorce thee' three times. After the third recitation, in Islamic law, the divorce is considered final.

I UNDERSTAND THAT ONLY MEN HAVE THIS 'RIGHT'. WOMEN ARE NOT PERMITTED TO DO THIS THEMSELVES.

Now, to a Sharia court, Talaq divorces are recognised. In British law, THEY ARE NOT. So, what are 'divorced' Muslims to do ? Respect Sharia courts, or instead respect the reality of British law, as applicable to all citizens in the UK ? How many Sharia courts will be willing to admit that a Talaq divorce has no actual value, or meaning ???

It's a greater problem than that. Sharia practises often differ from what British law will recognise or permit. As my Daily Telegraph article pointed out, not all Sharia courts are entirely honest about British law. Some Muslims attending those courts are misled into thinking that Sharia courts have a greater standing in British law than in fact they do.

Now, folks .. HOW'S ALL THAT FOR EVIDENCE OF THE MUSLIM WILLINGNESS TO INTEGRATE ?

Drummond. Jafar will spend the rest of the weekend, trying to find more Defensive excuses to disagree with everything you presented above.
Just watch. Your evidence will be declared a Pack of Lies by jafar. It's not fair to Honestly present known, documented facts that force the 'jafar's' to search for more hate filled excuses.

[jafar00]

Do no Egyptians ever visit YouTube ? A collection of video links detailing his interviews - and rants - is there, just waiting to be examined by all who care to.

Yes Egyptians do visit youtube. However you would have to search for this Choudary guy specifically.

BTW, do you know Sa'd Al Soghayar? No? Why not? He is very popular in Arab countries and particular his native Egypt.

This is the Arab equivalent of Gangnam style in terms of popularity.

This is a song about fruit.



How about Huba. Do you know him? Why not?



I think they are almost unknown outside of Arab countries.

You saw the speaker make no reference to so-called 'deficiencies' of Western culture ? REALLY ?You heard him make no attempt to sell Islamic 'standards' as offering something 'superior' ? Then I suggest you view it again.

The point I found particularly objectionable was that it all amounted to a sanitising of Islam, and this within a context of exploitation of a time of social misery. As I've pointed out already .. a FAIR, BALANCED video should also have made references to Islam's various cruelties and barbarities. Those offered by the punishments from Sharia Law. Or, a consideration of all the terrorism it spawns.

What, in your view, Jafar, was worse ? The Tottenham riot .. or, say, 9/11 .. ??

9/11 was worse of course. However I fail to see what that has to do with Islam or all the other stuff you are talking about.

Including JAIL time for it, evidently. Also including (even if it was the first judgment of its type) the option in their law to see a CANING administered !!

And for what ? DRINKING SOME BEER ????

I can be fined for walking across the road the wrong way in Australia. I may not like the law, but if I break it I am punished. Likewise for this woman. She broke the law.

Well .. why not ? Didn't you say you frequented that pub ?

To be fair, you never stated that you drank in that pub .. it would've been curious indeed if you had !! Even so .. I'm rather struck by the thought of you, as a loyal Muslim, who presumably must forever see imbibing alcoholic beverages as 'sinful', sitting around in what both of us will know was usually a crowded pub, totally surrounded by such, ahem, 'terrible sinners', OUT OF CHOICE, DURING YOUR BREAK TIMES !!

Jafar .. really .. how ever did you tolerate any of it, much less deliberately CHOOSE such surroundings ? I mean .. they were all 'disgusting sinners' .. eh ??

Now THAT, Jafar, is funny !!!

More than one Muslim went to the George at lunchtimes and as a result, more than one of the drinkers there are now Muslims. The good that came out of mixing with "terrible sinners" far outweighed the bad of being where alcohol is served.

Besides. Their chips were really good!

Take the example of Waltham Forest (an East London suburb). It has a large Muslim contingent, as you may be aware of yourself. There, posters were put on walls, trees and suchlike, declaring it to be a 'Muslim area', where strict Muslim behaviours were demanded (e.g prohibitions on public music). Now, the police came along and removed those posters .. nonetheless, there was a case, right there, of Muslim hardliner types 'trying it on'.

Youngsters behaving badly I guess. <shrugs>

Talaq divorce, Jafar. Because of a job I was involved with decades ago, I just happen to have a cursory knowledge about Talaq divorces. This, Jafar and folks, is a somewhat barbaric practice which permits a man to stand, in front of witnesses, and humiliate his soon-to-be-divorced wife and say 'I divorce thee' three times. After the third recitation, in Islamic law, the divorce is considered final.

I UNDERSTAND THAT ONLY MEN HAVE THIS 'RIGHT'. WOMEN ARE NOT PERMITTED TO DO THIS THEMSELVES.

Now, to a Sharia court, Talaq divorces are recognised. In British law, THEY ARE NOT. So, what are 'divorced' Muslims to do ? Respect Sharia courts, or instead respect the reality of British law, as applicable to all citizens in the UK ? How many Sharia courts will be willing to admit that a Talaq divorce has no actual value, or meaning ???

It's a greater problem than that. Sharia practises often differ from what British law will recognise or permit. As my Daily Telegraph article pointed out, not all Sharia courts are entirely honest about British law. Some Muslims attending those courts are misled into thinking that Sharia courts have a greater standing in British law than in fact they do.

Now, folks .. HOW'S ALL THAT FOR EVIDENCE OF THE MUSLIM WILLINGNESS TO INTEGRATE ?

Most Muslims in Islamic countries have both civil and religious marriage ceremonies. My wife and I are an example of that.

I think you will find that a Muslim woman can divorce her husband as long as she renounces any claim to her dowery and the family home. </shrugs>

[Drummond]

Yes Egyptians do visit youtube. However you would have to search for this Choudary guy specifically.

BTW, do you know Sa'd Al Soghayar? No? Why not? He is very popular in Arab countries and particular his native Egypt.

This is the Arab equivalent of Gangnam style in terms of popularity.

This is a song about fruit.

Ah, but, is it a song about fruit filled with Semtex ? I shall expand on my point below.

How about Huba. Do you know him? Why not?



I think they are almost unknown outside of Arab countries.

Well, perhaps so (.. until now, anyway ..)

Unless I'm somehow missing the point, Jafar, these are merely entertainment material. Those involved set out to entertain. Unless, of course, they're Jihadist bomb-wielders in their spare time, or preach the importance of converting the world into being subservient to an Islamic Caliphate ? Yes ??

Because, you see, the likes of Choudary are working to establish JUST such a worldwide subservience to Islam. Choudary doesn't use his time to entertain one single country .. he uses his time in the furtherance of his cause of Islamic conquest. In so doing, he spreads his message not JUST for the 'home market', but across the world. Indeed, he's been concentrating some of his efforts on AMERICA.

He's appeared on the Sean Hannity Show, on Fox News .. which I know is syndicated nationally. I've also seen a clip of him being interviewed on CNN. I've even seen evidence from Google that he tried to arrange a Muslim protest outside the White House !!

With all this going on, with Choudary doing what he's doing, the likelihood of international notoriety increases.

Would you care to watch the CNN clip ?



Watch it to the end. Note Choudary's insistence that what HE describes for Islam is the true vision. Note also that, in fact, his description (from just 50 seconds into it) of the Muslim Brotherhood's dominance ACTUALLY is an excellent point !

Oh, and note his comment around 8 minutes 40 seconds in .. a VERY candid insistence that Britain 'belongs to Allah' and 'we will implement the Sharia in Britain'.

As I've said very recently, I'm grateful to Choudary. From him, you get a clear, candid, honest, picture of the truth of Islam. Loathsome as his stuff is, we all know where we stand with him.

.. well, DON'T WE ????

9/11 was worse of course. However I fail to see what that has to do with Islam or all the other stuff you are talking about.

You do realise that the vast majority of people on this forum will read that comment of yours with incredulity ??!?? Are you trying to rewrite history ??

9/11 was the day AMERICA WAS ATTACKED BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS !! UNLESS YOU HAVE A WAY OF PROVING THAT MUSLIMS AREN'T ISLAMIC (!!), YOUR ASSERTION IS TOTAL ROT !!

I have no need to comment further on that one.

I can be fined for walking across the road the wrong way in Australia. I may not like the law, but if I break it I am punished. Likewise for this woman. She broke the law.

There are good laws, and then there are bad laws. Good laws serve people, contribute to the greater good. Bad laws mete out misery to no good end and lack proper remedial purpose.

All the lady you're discussing did, Jafar, was DRINK BEER.

Now, as societies across the world prove every day, people can drink beer and not need to be JAILED for it !! But, worse, Malaysia has gone a brutal step further and accepted a principle that says women can be CANED for it, whilst in prison ! THAT, Jafar, is wholly gratuitous, it's a step that does nothing except satisfy someone's sick enthusiasm for needless sadism and cruelty.

Or, to put it another way .. it's acceptable on Islamic grounds.

More than one Muslim went to the George at lunchtimes

I don't doubt that for a single second !

... and as a result, more than one of the drinkers there are now Muslims. The good that came out of mixing with "terrible sinners" far outweighed the bad of being where alcohol is served.

This illustrates a truth, does it not, that Tyr and I have each made clear about the practitioners of Islam, how it works, what it does in social terms.

Now, your average Brit, Jafar, just happily takes a break from work at lunchtimes, and uses that break to have a meal, indulge in recreational mixing with others .. that kind of thing (or maybe a bit of lunchtime shopping). People fortunate enough to have the resources that you had in and around the general vicinity of Lincolns Inn Fields are highly likely to pile into restaurants or pubs nearby .. of which there are several, in High Holborn, Fleet Street, or in your case, around Portugal Street. What they invariably NOT do is visit churches (there are a couple nearby, e.g St Clement Danes) or seek out Muslim gatherings .. yet, regardless of all that, STILL, your goal has been not to just respect the status quo, but INSTEAD, work to further the Muslim objective of theological conquest.

It's the way of things in the Muslim world .. to expand that world, to 'terraform' other territories and their populations, so that these territories become Islamic. YOU DO NOT INTEGRATE .. YOU CHANGE EVERYTHING, AND EVERYONE, TO FORCE YOUR ENVIRONMENT TO A SHAPE AND CHARACTER OF YOUR CHOOSING.

In a word .. CONQUEST.

Choudary is honest about it.

You can't simply fit in, and let that be the end of it, not as a typical Muslim. But you expect OTHERS to fit in with YOU.

Besides. Their chips were really good!

True. Likewise their meat pies.

Hey - their bacon sarnies weren't bad, either ...

Youngsters behaving badly I guess.

AU CONTRAIRE ...

Here's a taste of the REALITY involved, Jafar. And do take a look at the link. There are some rather professional-looking posters to be seen in the photo ..

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/new...ival_protests/

EXTREMIST Islamist group Muslims Against Crusades (MAC) is planning a demonstration in the borough this weekend.

Police previously said the far right English Defence League (EDL) were expected to hold a counter demonstration, but the group has only said it "may" take action.

Officers are expecting around 50 to 100 members of MAC to meet outside Leyton underground station at 12noon on Saturday (July 30) before marching to Walthamstow.

The Guardian has also heard rumours that a third counter-demonstration by an unnamed anti-fascist organisation is also planned.

A spokesman said MAC wanted to "declare the beginning of a shift in Europe that will see high profile campaigns firmly asserting Islam’s presence in the west and the unstoppable resurgence of a Muslim fifth column determined to see the domination of the Shariah worldwide."

The planned demonstrations come following attempts by two extremists to put up stickers and posters in Waltham Forest declaring it a 'Sharia Law' zone.

Police and the council say they are only aware of 12 of the posters being spotted in the borough.

Anjem Choudary, who ran the now banned Islam4UK group, has declared he is responsible for the posters which claim that "Islamic rules are enforced" banning music, alcohol, gambling, drug use and prostitution.

So there you have it .. not a kid, but Choudary again, enjoying himself. At the expense of others, not least by wasting police time.

You, Jafar, and others reading this, will correctly get a picture of a community being filled with strife, with community pressures caused by Islamists utterly determined to exert their will on the territory in which they live. Are their non-Islamists living in Walthamstow, and the Waltham Forest area ? OF COURSE THERE ARE .. THOUSANDS OF THEM. And they have to enjoy the power-play of extremist Islamic influences brought to bear in their neighbourhood ... not because they asked for it, but because Muslims INSIST on it.

I trust my point is made, Jafar.

Skipping across to ..

I think you will find that a Muslim woman can divorce her husband as long as she renounces any claim to her dowery and the family home.

I acknowledge that basic point. But will you, in turn, acknowledge that this does not reflect equality within the sexes .. not EVEN within the terms you've described ?

My previous point remains valid. 'TALAQ' is something that only the man can do. There is no precise equivalent for the woman.

But there is a version of something 'LIKE' it, for a woman .. called 'Kulah'. My understanding is that, through 'Kulah', a woman may ASK her husband to divorce her.

Now, does that sound equal to you ? Or, does it instead sound like a reversion back to primitive times, where the woman is forced into a subservient position .. for no other good reason that a religion, and some old pervert from a bygone age, wanted it that way ?

[aboutime]

Yes Egyptians do visit youtube. However you would have to search for this Choudary guy specifically.

BTW, do you know Sa'd Al Soghayar? No? Why not? He is very popular in Arab countries and particular his native Egypt.

This is the Arab equivalent of Gangnam style in terms of popularity.

This is a song about fruit.



How about Huba. Do you know him? Why not?



I think they are almost unknown outside of Arab countries.



9/11 was worse of course. However I fail to see what that has to do with Islam or all the other stuff you are talking about.





I can be fined for walking across the road the wrong way in Australia. I may not like the law, but if I break it I am punished. Likewise for this woman. She broke the law.





More than one Muslim went to the George at lunchtimes and as a result, more than one of the drinkers there are now Muslims. The good that came out of mixing with "terrible sinners" far outweighed the bad of being where alcohol is served.

Besides. Their chips were really good!



Youngsters behaving badly I guess. <shrugs>



Most Muslims in Islamic countries have both civil and religious marriage ceremonies. My wife and I are an example of that.

I think you will find that a Muslim woman can divorce her husband as long as she renounces any claim to her dowery and the family home. </shrugs>

jafar. Most of the kinds of fruits you mentioned above. Happen to live in the USA, in a city called San Francisco.

Looks like your version would fit in perfectly in that atmosphere.

Can you, and those fruit types sing...."Y. M. C. A."?

[jafar00]

Ah, but, is it a song about fruit filled with Semtex ? I shall expand on my point below.



Well, perhaps so (.. until now, anyway ..)

Unless I'm somehow missing the point, Jafar, these are merely entertainment material. Those involved set out to entertain. Unless, of course, they're Jihadist bomb-wielders in their spare time, or preach the importance of converting the world into being subservient to an Islamic Caliphate ? Yes ??

Ok, you lost me in that passing cloud of paranoia.

The point I'm making is that you won't necessarily know of something obscure unless you are looking specifically for it.

Because, you see, the likes of Choudary are working to establish JUST such a worldwide subservience to Islam. Choudary doesn't use his time to entertain one single country .. he uses his time in the furtherance of his cause of Islamic conquest. In so doing, he spreads his message not JUST for the 'home market', but across the world. Indeed, he's been concentrating some of his efforts on AMERICA.

To be honest, I don't really care much about a guy I've never heard of. He has some opinions and that is all well and good. Doesn't the UK also have freedom of speech?

You do realise that the vast majority of people on this forum will read that comment of yours with incredulity ??!?? Are you trying to rewrite history ??

9/11 was the day AMERICA WAS ATTACKED BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS !! UNLESS YOU HAVE A WAY OF PROVING THAT MUSLIMS AREN'T ISLAMIC (!!), YOUR ASSERTION IS TOTAL ROT !!

I know a lot of westerners bought the "It was the big bad Muslims that did it" line but the truth is, the attack was again Islam 100% and was done by people of questionable character who's adherence to Islam was suspect at best. The fact that the hijackers were known to be hard drinkers who liked gambling and lap dances tells me a lot about their devotion to God who forbade Muslims from doing all of those things. Anyone who disobeys the Qur'aan directly and who's last acts on this Earth are acts of kufr(disbelief) will end up in hellfire. That's where these people will go for sure.

There are good laws, and then there are bad laws. Good laws serve people, contribute to the greater good. Bad laws mete out misery to no good end and lack proper remedial purpose.

All the lady you're discussing did, Jafar, was DRINK BEER.

What she did was against the law. If you don't like the law, do something to have it repealed. Break the law and be prepared to pay for it. That's it.

Here's a taste of the REALITY involved, Jafar. And do take a look at the link. There are some rather professional-looking posters to be seen in the photo ..

Anyone with a copy of Word, a printer and some pretty yellow paper can do the same these days.


I acknowledge that basic point. But will you, in turn, acknowledge that this does not reflect equality within the sexes .. not EVEN within the terms you've described ?

My previous point remains valid. 'TALAQ' is something that only the man can do. There is no precise equivalent for the woman.

But there is a version of something 'LIKE' it, for a woman .. called 'Kulah'. My understanding is that, through 'Kulah', a woman may ASK her husband to divorce her.

Now, does that sound equal to you ? Or, does it instead sound like a reversion back to primitive times, where the woman is forced into a subservient position .. for no other good reason that a religion, and some old pervert from a bygone age, wanted it that way ?

Regardless of Talaq or not, you will find that a man who wants a divorce in any Arab country these days still needs to go through the court system to get divorced. At least the civil marriage contract part of it.

Does the religious part of a Christian marriage have any significance these days?

[Drummond]

Ok, you lost me in that passing cloud of paranoia.

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The point I'm making is that you won't necessarily know of something obscure unless you are looking specifically for it.

Choudary has done his utmost to be anything but 'obscure'. I've already described to you his efforts to gain international exposure.

To be honest, I don't really care much about a guy I've never heard of. He has some opinions and that is all well and good. Doesn't the UK also have freedom of speech?

Let's be honest here, shall we ? What you really want is to be dismissive about somebody who exposes some ugly truths about Islam. Better that than have to face up to questioning about what he says and wants.

I know a lot of westerners bought the "It was the big bad Muslims that did it" line but the truth is, the attack was again Islam 100% and was done by people of questionable character who's adherence to Islam was suspect at best. The fact that the hijackers were known to be hard drinkers who liked gambling and lap dances tells me a lot about their devotion to God who forbade Muslims from doing all of those things. Anyone who disobeys the Qur'aan directly and who's last acts on this Earth are acts of kufr(disbelief) will end up in hellfire. That's where these people will go for sure.

Like many people who say they're loyal to a particular faith, Jafar, they don't always adhere to its doctrines. A Christian sinner is nonetheless Christian. A Muslim who drinks doesn't cease to be Muslim because of it (as a certain un-caned lady in Malaysia will doubtless be very happy to tell you is true).

Perhaps, Jafar, those Muslim terrorists were motivated, in part, to please their supposed 'god' BY committing their terrorism ? Maybe they wanted to redress the balance thrown out of kilter by past 'sins', and thought the 9/11 outrage was a great way to do it .. because 'Islam is a religion of peace' ?

Besides ... wouldn't a lap-dancing Muslim enthusiast perhaps find the prospect of scores of virgins waiting for him in 'heaven' a tad appealing .. ??

Oh, by the way, Jafar, this in passing .. tell me, those Hamas terrorists that Israel is busy depriving of their earthly lives .. where do you think THEY will go, to heaven or hell ? Do tell us !

Perhaps your version of 'heaven' is supposed to WELCOME terrorists .. h'mmm ???

What she did was against the law. If you don't like the law, do something to have it repealed. Break the law and be prepared to pay for it. That's it.

Is jail time for drinking good, in your view, or not ? Is being CANED for it, good or bad ?

Just how barbaric IS Islam, anyway ??

Anyone with a copy of Word, a printer and some pretty yellow paper can do the same these days.

And it helps if his name is Anjem Choudary, noted supporter of Osama bin Laden, seeker of a worldwide Islamic Caliphate, would-be killer of democracies around the world ... and implacable supporter of the furtherance of Islam ?

Regardless of Talaq or not, you will find that a man who wants a divorce in any Arab country these days still needs to go through the court system to get divorced. At least the civil marriage contract part of it.

You'd be surprised at how indignant some Muslims get when they find that their Talaq divorce isn't recognised by British law. Some of the nastiest exchanges I've ever witnessed have this very issue as the cause of them.

Does the religious part of a Christian marriage have any significance these days?

Very much so. Although .. Secularists are doing their utmost to stop this.

[jafar00]

Let's be honest here, shall we ? What you really want is to be dismissive about somebody who exposes some ugly truths about Islam. Better that than have to face up to questioning about what he says and wants.

If someone has extremist views that only appeal to a very limited audience, it's not good but since that audience is limited, I don't see too much harm coming from it. From what you have shown me so far, I can reassure you that 99% of Muslims would strongly disagree with him.

Perhaps, Jafar, those Muslim terrorists were motivated, in part, to please their supposed 'god' BY committing their terrorism ? Maybe they wanted to redress the balance thrown out of kilter by past 'sins', and thought the 9/11 outrage was a great way to do it .. because 'Islam is a religion of peace' ?

If they did it to please God, they have been led astray by quite a wide margin. There is nothing in Islam that could possibly support what they did.

Oh, by the way, Jafar, this in passing .. tell me, those Hamas terrorists that Israel is busy depriving of their earthly lives .. where do you think THEY will go, to heaven or hell ? Do tell us !

I don't know the people that are being killed in Gaza, but I do know that the all the children being killed are most likely to end up straight in heaven.

Is jail time for drinking good, in your view, or not ? Is being CANED for it, good or bad ?

I think a few drunkards I have seen in my time could do with a good caning.

And it helps if his name is Anjem Choudary, noted supporter of Osama bin Laden, seeker of a worldwide Islamic Caliphate, would-be killer of democracies around the world ... and implacable supporter of the furtherance of Islam ?

I wouldn't worry too much. Osama never had much of a following outside of his own little circle so his dream of world domination was never going to happen. Oh, and he's dead now.

Besides. Have you seen what is happening in the Arab world today? The "would-be killer of democracies around the world" appears to have had a totally opposite effect.

You'd be surprised at how indignant some Muslims get when they find that their Talaq divorce isn't recognised by British law. Some of the nastiest exchanges I've ever witnessed have this very issue as the cause of them.

All they need is for a good Sheikh to remind them of their obligation to follow the law of the land where they live as long as the law doesn't make them sin.