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    Quote Originally Posted by logroller View Post
    While technically correct, if she were a good Muslim she wouldn't have committed the offense. Catch 22???
    10 points for you good sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    This is true. But I can say this much, if my wife were in ANY country, and say she was convicted of some lame Sharia crime, and sentenced to caning, my ass would be dead before that was allowed to happen. No religion and no women beating savages would be allowed to touch her while I was still alive. But some think a little beating here and there is necessary to keep the women in line. It will be denied of course, but ALL of their teachings call for it an allow for it.



    From the Quran:

    Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell

    Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. Dawood[2]
    Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. Pickthall[3]
    Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great. Arberry[4]
    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. Shakir[5]
    Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Ali[6]
    COMMENT ON 4:34
    The introduction emphasized the husband’s superiority over the wife. 4:34 starts by establishing that precedent. The beginning states: men are "superior", men have "authority", men are "in charge", etc. Muhammad placed the man over the wife; he is her custodian and she obeys him. Then the Quran proceeds to lay out their respective roles, then lists a progression of steps to be followed when dealing with a rebellious wife:

    1. admonish them: The husband is to verbally admonish her
    2. send them to beds apart: If that fails the husband is to sexually desert his wife
    3. beat them: If both measures above fail the husband is commanded to beat his wife.



    http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm
    <center style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium;">Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!

    </center>
    The sections of this article are:
    1- Wife beating is not allowed in Islam!
    2- Noble Verses and Sayings that support the prohibition of any type of
    wife beating.
    3- The Prophet forbade striking on the face.
    4- What about the saying about striking the wife lightly on her hand with a siwak?
    This saying doesn't belong to Prophet Muhammad.
    5- More proofs about the translation of Noble Verse 4:34.
    6- Conclusion.

    Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.
    Let us look at Noble Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
    (35). If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.
    (36). Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;"
    The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The issue with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.
    Allah Almighty used the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 14:24 "Seest thou not how Allah sets (daraba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". "daraba" here meant "give an example". If I say in Arabic "daraba laka mathal", it means "give you an example".
    Allah Almighty also used the word "darabtum", which is derived from the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:94, which mean to "go abroad" in the sake of Allah Almighty:
    "O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)"
    So "daraba" literally means "beat", or "go abroad", or "give" but not in the sense to give something by hand, but rather to give or provide an example.
    Important Note: Notice how Allah Almighty in Noble Chapter (Surah) 4 He used "daraba (4:34" and "darabtum (4:94)", which are both derived from the same root. He used both words in the same Chapter, which tells me that "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:34 means to desert or leave, since that's what its derived word meant in Noble Verse 4:94. The next section below will further prove my point.
    I am sure there are more Noble Verses that used words derived from "daraba" in the Noble Quran, but these are the only ones I know of so far. In the case of Noble Verse 4:34 where Allah Almighty seems to allow men to hit their wives after the two warnings for ill-conduct and disloyalty, it could very well be that Allah Almighty meant to command the Muslims to "leave" the home all together and desert their wives for a long time in a hope that the wives would then come back to their senses and repent.

    <big><big>Noble Verses and Sayings that support the prohibition of any type of wife beating:</big></big>
    The following Noble Verses and Sayings from the Noble Quran and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him respectively seem to very well support the above interpretation:
    "...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"
    Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"
    Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"
    Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"
    "O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
    "And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"
    "Women impure for men impure. And women of purity for men of purity. These are not affected by what people say. For them is forgiveness and an honorable provision. (The Noble Quran 24:26)"
    Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135)"
    Narrated Abu Huraira: "A man said to the Prophet , 'Advise me! 'The Prophet said, 'Do not become angry and furious.' The man asked (the same) again and again, and the Prophet said in each case, 'Do not become angry and furious.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 137)"
    Abu Huraira reported: "I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: One is not strong because of one's wrestling skillfully. They said: Allah's Messenger, then who is strong? He said: He who controls his anger when he is in a fit of rage. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Virtue, Good Manners and Joining of the Ties of Relationship (Kitab Al-Birr was-Salat-I-wa'l-Adab), Book 032, Number 6314)"
    Allah Almighty loves those who restrain anger: "Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men; for Allah loves those who do good. (The Noble Quran, 3:134)"

    <big><big>The Prophet forbade striking on the face:</big></big>
    Let us look at the following narrations about Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:
    Narrated Salim: "....Umar said: 'The Prophet forbade beating on the face.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Hunting, Slaughtering, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 449)"
    Narrated AbuHurayrah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you inflicts a beating, he should avoid striking the face. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud), Number 4478)"
    These narrations do not prove the interpretation that wife beating being ok as long as it is not done on the face, because the narrations are general and do not mention any wives. The striking could be done on our children when we discipline them. In this case, the above two narrations would fit perfectly with the situation, because while we can still physically discipline our children, we are not allowed to hit them on the face.

    <big><big>What about the saying about striking the wife lightly on her hand with a siwak?</big></big>
    There is not a single Saying or Noble Verse from Prophet Muhammad or the Noble Quran respectively that mentions any such beating.
    A siwak is a small piece of wood that is approximately twice as long as an index finger and as thick as a thumb, which was used 1400 years ago to brush the teeth and the bad breath.
    This saying actually belongs to Imam Shafie, and not to Prophet Muhammad. Imam Shafie or Minister Shafie is a popular Muslim scholar that came 100s of years after Prophet Muhammad. I used to have the reference information to his saying about this subject, but unfortunately I lost it. When I find it insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty wills it) I will post it.

    <big><big>More proofs about the translation of Noble Verse 4:34:</big></big>
    The following is an email that sent to me by brother A. Tilling; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
    From: ARJTilling@aol.com
    To: ISLM4EVR1@aol.com
    Subj: Another Reply to Mr O Abdallah
    Date: 3/28/02 3:16:15 AM Central Standard Time
    Peace,
    I have visited the link and it was what I expected. But the question I am asking is a linguistic one, not one based on interpretations and jurisprudence. Here again is the extract I provided:
    >>>>>>>
    (4:34) [...]as for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adriboo) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them.
    Note from me Osama Abdallah: Actually the Arabic word is not "adriboo" which is a plural for beating men. It is "idribuhunna" which is a plural for beating women. But the two Arabic words mean the same thing, which is "beating".
    Continuing with brother A. Tilling email....
    The key to the problem is the mistranslation of the two key words nushuz and adriboo. Some of the possible meanings for both the words, according to the lexicon,3 are given below. Again, the appropriate meaning will depend on the context of the verse.
    Nushuz: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord; violation of marital duties on the part of either husband or wife.
    Adriboo (root: daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part.
    In the context of the above verse the most appropriate meaning for nushuz is 'marital discord' (ill-will, animosity etc), and for adriboo is 'to separate' or 'to part'. Otherwise, it is inviting the likelihood of a divorce without any reconciliation procedure. Such a step would blatantly contravene the Qur'anic guidance shown in verse 4:35 below. Therefore, a more accurate and consistent translation of the above verse would be:
    (4:34) [...]as for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.
    The separation could be temporary or permanent depending on the reconciliation procedure. Such as construction is legitimate within the terms of the language and fits in very well with the divorce procedure outlined in the Qur'an (see 8.5).
    The verse following the above verse gives further weight to the above translation.
    (4:35) And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.
    Added weight to the meanings outlined above is given by verse 4:128 quoted below. Here, in the case of a man, the same word nushuz is used, but it is rendered as 'ill-treatment' as against 'rebellion' in the case of a woman as shown earlier in the traditional translation of verse 4:34. One find oneself asking whether since the ill-treatment is on the part of the husband, a process of reconciliation is here to be encouraged!
    (4:128) If a wife fears ill-treatment (nushuz) or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best[...]
    This, obviously, is a double standard and the only way to reconcile the meanings of the two verses, in the contexts they are being used, is to accept the meaning of adriboo as: 'to separate' or to 'part'. In this connection I would like to refer the reader to an excellent article by Rachael Tibbet from which I quote:
    (a) Qur'anic commentators and translators experience problems with the term Adribu in the Qur'an not just in this verse but in others, as it is used in different contexts in ways which appear ambiguous and open to widely different translations into English. 'Daraba' can be translated in more than a hundred different ways.
    (b) The translation of adribu as 'to strike' in this particular verse (4:34) is founded upon nothing more than:
    (i) The authority of hadiths (Abu Daud 2141 and Mishkat Al-Masabih 0276) that this is what Adribu means in this context.
    (ii) The prejudices and environment of the early commentators of the Qur'an which led them to assume that 'to strike', given the overall context of the verse, was the most likely interpretation of the many possible interpretations of adribu.
    >>>>>>>>>

    Thanks
    A Tilling

    <big><big>Conclusion:</big></big>
    According to the Noble Quran and the Sayings of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him above, wife beating in Islam is definetly prohibited, possibly even in the case where the wife fails after she was warned twice for her ill-conduct and disloyalty.
    It is definetly a valid interpretation for Noble Verse 4:34 that Allah Almighty commanded the Muslim men to desert and leave their wives, and not to physically beat them as many scholars believe.
    I personally favor this non-violent interpretation, because (1) It is very well supported in Islam as clearly and unquestionably shown above; and (2) It makes more sense and seems more practical in dealing with the bad wife who insists on showing ill-conduct and disloyalty toward her husband and family.
    And Allah Almighty knows best, and may He forgive me if I made any mistake here.

    http://www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius View Post
    And if the prescribed punishment were death, she'd insist on that?

    you're full of shit.
    Yes, she would.
    اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله

  2. #212
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    what a joke!say that beating isnt allowed and yet number 6 states light beating is allowex. either way, forgive me if i dont follow the word of someone who admits to supporting terrorists. i'll go with what i have read myself, and from the statistics i have seen from muslims around the world.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jafar00 View Post

    3- The Prophet forbade striking on the face.

    6- Conclusion.
    Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.
    Let us look at Noble Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
    So the pedoprophet forbid striking, only in the face of course. And beating isn't allowed, but until after 2 warnings. And maybe again, but not until after one refuses to share their bed, and so long as you do so lightly. Sorry, I stopped there, as it's too sick to read any further, making excuses and giving "reasoning" to make it ok to beat a woman. Women should NEVER be beaten, EVER, even with ENDLESS warnings and NO MATTER what transpired previously.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Jafar... do you approve of sex with 9 year old girls, assuming she is Muslim? Your prophet did.

    http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sun...i/062.sbt.html
    Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 62:
    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years
    Before you try to spin your way out of this, here is the definition of the word 'consummate'...
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consummate
    to complete (the union of a marriage) by the first marital sexual intercourse.
    That is the ONLY definition which matches the context of the quoted verse.

    Essentially, your 'prophet' was a pedophile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jafar00 View Post
    10 points for you good sir. .
    Bravo. Log scores but he never supports muslims or thier evil teachings. And he is not a muslim appeasor.
    Thats why Jafar just thanked him and gave him brownie points..--Tyr

    Jafar first you say beating women is not allowed in Islam then you acknowledge that beting them lightly is allowed.
    I guess Allah has shown you guys how yes and no both mean the same thing.. Your defender log agrees too..
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    Bravo. Log scores but he never supports muslims or thier evil teachings. And he is not a muslim appeasor.
    Thats why Jafar just thanked him and gave him brownie points..--Tyr

    Jafar first you say beating women is not allowed in Islam then you acknowledge that beting them lightly is allowed.
    I guess Allah has shown you guys how yes and no both mean the same thing.. Your defender log agrees too..
    Please show me where I defended him. You cannot, for i did not. Nor can you show where I agreed with him. I agreed with Jim, with the caveat that Jafar's statement was a paradox, a catch-22. Jafar agreed with me, not I with him. So I scored using logic and, not surprisingly, you failed to comprehend.
    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.AeschylusRead more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...zeMUwcpY1Io.99

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Sorry, I stopped there, as it's too sick to read any further,
    Then there is no point in debating the point any further if you stop at using an English interpretation of a word that can have 10 different meanings. One of which is separation which is supported by the verses after (oh context is a bitch) which talk about how to deal with separation or divorce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius View Post
    Jafar... do you approve of sex with 9 year old girls, assuming she is Muslim? Your prophet did.

    http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sun...i/062.sbt.html
    Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 62:
    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:


    Before you try to spin your way out of this, here is the definition of the word 'consummate'...
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consummate

    That is the ONLY definition which matches the context of the quoted verse.

    Essentially, your 'prophet' was a pedophile.
    Nice diversion, but I have already posted extensively about this in another thread. Try going back 1500 years to call all the Kings, Queens and Noble paedophiles for marrying young. It was the custom AT THE TIME. I'm not going to say that again if you won't listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    Jafar first you say beating women is not allowed in Islam then you acknowledge that beting them lightly is allowed.
    I guess Allah has shown you guys how yes and no both mean the same thing.. Your defender log agrees too..
    Since there are other verses saying do not beat your wife, and hadiths to support not beating your wife, there is more evidence to say that wife beating is forbidden than evidence to support beatings. However the subject has still been debated and if you were to do it, it should be done with a small stick the size of your finger, without harming her and not on the face.

    Try it now. Tap yourself on the arm with a pencil.........

    Did it hurt?
    اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله

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    Quote Originally Posted by jafar00 View Post

    Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

    Jafar... do you approve of sex with 9 year old girls, assuming she is Muslim? Your prophet did.

    http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sun...i/062.sbt.html
    Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 62:
    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:


    Before you try to spin your way out of this, here is the definition of the word 'consummate'...
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consummate

    That is the ONLY definition which matches the context of the quoted verse.

    Essentially, your 'prophet' was a pedophile.
    Nice diversion, but I have already posted extensively about this in another thread. Try going back 1500 years to call all the Kings, Queens and Noble paedophiles for marrying young. It was the custom AT THE TIME. I'm not going to say that again if you won't listen.
    First, I'd like you to provide some supporting evidence that sex with 9 year old girls was customary at that time. Please link to your sources for this statement. Marrying a 14 year old girl (post pubescent) is vastly different than marrying a 9 year old girl (pre-pubescent).

    Second, whether or not it was custom at the time is immaterial. Your prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl. Do you approve of that? A simple yes or no is all that is needed here.
    Last edited by Marcus Aurelius; 11-21-2012 at 07:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jafar00 View Post



    Since there are other verses saying do not beat your wife, and hadiths to support not beating your wife, there is more evidence to say that wife beating is forbidden than evidence to support beatings. However the subject has still been debated and if you were to do it, it should be done with a small stick the size of your finger, without harming her and not on the face.

    Try it now. Tap yourself on the arm with a pencil.........

    Did it hurt?
    Jafar the entire purpose for beating a person for transgressions is to inflict enough pain so that person will choose not to make the same transgression again! Its called corporal punishment and pain is its entire purpose, yet you now attempt to say pain is not the purpose for beating a wife. If it inflicts no pain( although it does actually inflict pain) then pray tell what is its purpose? If you say shame then shame needs not physical actions to be applied when words and other penalties apply much better.
    We know that wife beating is to inflict pain. It is barbaric punishment and your religion endorses it on a great scale.
    By the way , I promise you that I could make a man cry out by hitting him with a small stick the size of my little finger. You must have some damn small fingers if your little finger is the size of a pencil.--Tyr
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    ...You must have some damn small fingers if your little finger is the size of a pencil.--Tyr
    Oh, it was his 'finger' that he was comparing to a pencil???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius View Post
    Oh, it was his 'finger' that he was comparing to a pencil???
    . I thought it was , maybe not..--Tyr
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jafar00 View Post
    Then there is no point in debating the point any further if you stop at using an English interpretation of a word that can have 10 different meanings. One of which is separation which is supported by the verses after (oh context is a bitch) which talk about how to deal with separation or divorce.
    YOU posted it, not me, but we ALL know that ALL of the Muslim writings teach that it is ok to give beatings to ones wife. How does one poorly translate Arabic into "beat someone lightly", and then post it, and then claim afterwards that it was a poor translation. I'll simply have it further clarified from a friend today, who is not a psycho and isn't afraid to admit the tons of problems within Islam. Its is ALL over the writings that men are superior to women. But it's no big deal, as of course the women are "obedient" and they've been given 2 warnings already, so I suppose the beating is needed to bring them back to obedience.

    "Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""

    …So I informed him [Muhammad]. (By that time) Mu'awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah's Messenger said: So far as Mu'awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid... She pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah's Messenger said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy.

    …She said: Mu'awiya and Abu'l-Jahm were among those who had given me the proposal of marriage. Thereupon Allah's Apostle said: Mu'awiya is destitute and in poor condition and Abu'l-Jahm is very harsh with women (or he beats women, or like that), you should take Usama b. Zaid (as your husband).

    These three Hadith illustrate that some Muslim husbands could legally beat their wives without any retaliatory consequences. Abu Jahm was known to beat his wives and to treat them harshly. Although Muhammad may not have cared for it, wife beating was certainly allowed within the Islamic community.

    Disciplining the wife was important enough in Islamic thought that Abu Dawud devoted a small chapter dedicated to wife beating in his Hadith collection. Below are two of them.

    Iyas Dhubab reported the apostle of Allah as saying: "Do not beat Allah's handmaidens", but when Umar came to the apostle of Allah and said: "Women have become emboldened towards their husbands", he (the prophet), gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the apostle of Allah complaining against their husbands. So the apostle of Allah said, "Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you"

    Umar reported the prophet as saying: "A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife".

    Like Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah also has a short chapter dedicated to the topic of wife beating.

    Iyas b. ‘Abdullah, the son of Abu Dhubab reported that Allah’s Messenger said, "Do not beat the slave girls (women folk)." Then Umar visited the Holy Prophet and said, "Allah’s Messenger, women have become emboldened towards their husbands. So allow us to beat them. So, they were beaten (when permission was granted). upon this many groups of women went round the family of Muhammad. When it was morning, he, (the Holy Prophet), said, "Seventy women went round the family of Muhammad this night. Every woman was making a complaint against her spouse. You will not find them (1) the best among you.

    Ash’ath b. Qais is reported to have said, "One night Umar arranged a feast. When it was midnight, he got up and went towards his wife to beat her. I separated them both. When he went to bed, he said to me, "O Ash’ath, preserve from me a thing that I heard from Allah’s messenger. (These things are): A man will not be taken to task for beating his wife (for valid reasons) and do not sleep without observing witr prayer." I forgot the third (exhortation).

    …When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?…

    Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: Abu Bakr came and sought permission to see Allah's Messenger. He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah's Apostle sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter of Kharija when she asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr then got up went to 'Aisha and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her saying: You ask Allah's Messenger which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah's Messenger for anything he does not possess…

    Narrated Aisha: Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, "You have detained the people because of your necklace." But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah's Apostle although that hit was very painful.

    "Narrated Zam'a, "The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day.""

    Shortly before he died as a result of poisoning by a Jewish woman [12], Muhammad addressed a crowd of Muslims in Mecca. He commented on several issues including the treatment of women. Below is the pertinent quote from Guillaume’s translation of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah".

    "You have rights over your wives, and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not with severity. If they refrain from these things and obey you, they have right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are your wards having no control of their persons."

    The Muslim scholar Ali Dashti translates the fourth sentence from the above passage and comments:

    Look after women kindly! They are prisoners, not having control of themselves at all". The passage's word in Arabic "awan" translated as "ward" or "prisoners" implies that women are in-between slave and free. In other words, because women are unable control their emotions, men are given authority over them

    Below is a large selection of commentary from some of the greatest scholars in Islam on 4:34.

    COMMENTARY OF AL TABARI[15]

    Tabari was a Shafi’i scholar and wrote one of the most extensive Quranic commentaries which was used by other Muslim scholars when writing their commentaries. Additionally, Tabari wrote a detailed history focusing primarily upon the Islamic world. This history is available in English as "The History of al-Tabari".

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others

    This means that men are in charge of their wives in leadership and discipline, because of paying them the dowry; spending their money on them; and providing for their needs. That’s how Allah chooses to excel men over them. That’s what the commentators have agreed on.

    Ibn Abbas said {Men are the maintainers of women} means that the woman has to obey her man in all of what Allah has commanded her, this includes the kind treatment of his family, the protection of his money.

    Al Dhahaak said: the man is the maintainer of his wife by ordering her to obey Allah. If she refused; then he can beat her not severely.

    It was said that this verse was revealed because a man hit his wife on her face, so she came to the prophet (saw). The prophet then wanted to judge in her favor. But Allah revealed { Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others}. Then the prophet called on the man and recited this verse to him and said: "I wanted one thing, but Allah wanted another".

    Al Zahry said: if a man hit his wife or wounded her, he is not to be charged, unless he kills her, then he shall be killed for murdering her.

    and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion

    Some scholars said: it means those whom you know that they are doing something disobedient. Others said: if you see a questionable behavior by them. Then you ought to advise them and refuse to sleep with them.

    {desertion} means: disobeying her husband. Ibn Abbas said: it is when the wife undermined her husband’s position and disobey him.

    {admonish them} Ibn Abbas said: by following the Quran. Mujahid said: if a woman deserted her bed and her husband told her : fear Allah and come back to bed and she obeyed him, then he has no right to admonish her.

    and leave them alone in the sleeping-places

    There are different opinions in interpreting this part of the verse. Some said: it means, do not have intercourse with them. Others like Ibn Abbas said: it means not to share bed with them (not intercourse). Others said: it means, to abandon speaking to them in bed.

    Ibn Abbas also said: it means, to stop talking to them, and to be mean to them and not have intercourse with them.

    and beat them

    It means: admonish them, but if they refused to repent, then tie them up in their homes and beat them until they obey Allah’s commands toward you. Scholars said: the beating that is allowed by Allah is not the severe kind. Ibn Abbas said: not severe.

    Also, Ibn Abbas said: abandon her in bed, but if she refused to return, then beat her not severely and do not break her bone. Ibn Abbas said: the beating has to be with light stick or the like.

    Al Qassem narrated, the prophet said: "do not abandon your wives except in bed, and when you beat them, do not beat them severely".



    COMMENTARY OF IBN KATHIR[16]

    Ibn Kathir was also a Shafi’i scholar and is one of the distinguished Islamic scholars. His commentary (tafseer) is a favorite of Sunni Muslims. Excerpts from his commentary on 4:34 follow. The quote is very long, but it is of great value in describing how the woman is positioned in Islam, and it provides the theological justification for her beating. I quote from pages 50 through 53.

    "In this verse Allah says that the man is the leader over the woman and is the one who disciplines her if she does wrong. "Because Allah has made one of them excel the other", this is because men are better than women, and a man is better than a woman. Therefore, prophethood and great kingship were confined to men, as the Prophet said, "A people that choose a woman as their leader will not succeed." This Hadith was narrated by Al-Bukhari. Added to that positions such as the judiciary, etc, … "And because they spend from their means." Here, Allah refers to the dowry and expenses, which Allah has prescribed in the Quran and Sunnah; and given a man is better than a woman, it is appropriate that he be her protector and maintainer, as Allah says: "But men have a degree over them." 2:228

    Therefore, a woman should obey her husband in what Allah has commanded her with regards to his obedience and Allah’s obedience. She should be kind towards his family, protective of his wealth. The statement was also held by Muqatil, As-Sudiy and Adh-Dhahhak.

    On the authority of Ali, Ibn Mardawaih narrated: "A man from al-Ansar came with a woman to the Prophet, then the woman said: "O Allah’s messenger! Her husband who was known as so and so from al-Ansar had hit her and that had affected her face." The Prophet replied: "He should not have done that." Then, the verse, "men are the protectors and maintainers of women", as far as discipline is concerned, was revealed. Therefore, the Prophet said, "You wanted something and Allah wanted something else.""

    "Because Allah has made one of them excel the other and because they spend from their means." Ash-Sha’bi stated that this excellence refers to the bridal money; for if the husband reprimands her, he shall not be punished and if she reprimands him, she will be lashed. "Therefore the righteous among women, are devoutly obedient" to their husbands. "And guard in the husband’s absence" her honor and his wealth. "What Allah orders them to guard." This part of the verse means that the guarded is he whom Allah has guarded.

    Quoting Abu Hurairah, Ibn Jarir narrated: "The Prophet said: "The best among women are the ones who pleases you when you look at her, obeys you when you give her an order and guards herself and your wealth during your absence." Then the Prophet recited: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women…""

    "As to those women on whose part you see misconduct (nushuzuhunna)." The reference is made to those who show disobedience. It is said that a nashiza – from the verb nashaza = to disobey – is a woman who disobeys her husband’s order, opposes and dislikes him. Therefore, if a husband feels the signs of her disobedience, he should give her advice, threaten her with Allah’s Punishment for her disobedience to her husband. This is because Allah has prescribed that a wife has a duty towards her husband and she should obey him, and that it is unlawful for her to disobey him due to his excellence. The Prophet said in this context: "If I were to order one to prostrate to another, I would order a women to prostrate to her husband due to the greatness of her duty towards him."

    "Refuse to share their beds." Ibn Abbas said: "A man should advise her if she accepts. Otherwise, he should refuse to share their bed." Quoting Ibn Abbas, "Sharing the bed means: a man should not have sexual intercourse with his wife, and should turn his back on her in bed. Quoting Muawiyyah Ibn Hida al-Qushairi, it is narrated in the books of Sunan (Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, etc…) and Musnad: "O Allah Messenger! What is a man’s duty towards his wife?" The Prophet replied: "Feed her when you feed yourself, buy her clothes when you buy yourself clothes, do not hit her in the face, do not scold and do not desert her except in the house.""

    "And beat them." If they do not abstain from their disobedience through both advice and desertion. However, the beating should be dharbun ghayru nubrah, i.e. light, according to the Hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim, on the authority of Jabir, who had quoted the Prophet as saying in his farewell pilgrimage: "And fear Allah in women, for they are your aides, and their duties towards you is that your beds should not be shared with someone you dislike. Therefore, if they disobey you, beat them lightly, and your duty towards them is that you should maintain and buy them clothes in a reasonable manner."

    Scholars said: dharbun ghayru nubrah means: The husband should beat his wife lightly, in a way which does not result in breaking one of her limbs or affecting her badly.

    "But if they obey, seek not against them means (of annoyance)." If a woman obeys her husband in all what he wants from her, as long as within the boundaries of what is lawful, he should not beat nor desert her."



    COMMENTARY OF BAIDAWI[17]

    Baidawi was a Persian Shafi’l scholar who was so respected that he was referred to as "The Judge".

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others

    Men are the maintainers over women just as rulers are over their populous, and Allah gave two reasons for this exaltation:

    One is due to the completeness of men’s brain over women’s deficiency, their management skills, and their extra requirement of worship; this is why men were chosen to be prophets; religious leaders; rulers; and enforcers of commandments; legal witnesses in a court of law; fighters in the cause of Allah; receivers of more share of the inheritance and in control of divorce. The other is their duty to pay dowry to their wives and provide for them.

    It was told that Sa’ad bin Al Rabee’a wife became disobedient so he smacked her. Then her father went to the messenger (saw) to file his complaint, wherein the messenger ruled in her favor. Then this verse was sent down, at which point the messenger said: we wanted something but Allah wanted another, and Allah knows better.

    and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion

    if you fear their disobedient

    Admonish them

    Then advise them

    and leave them alone in the sleeping-places

    Do not share bed with them, or do not face them when sleeping on the same bed or do not have intercourse with them.

    and beat them

    Means in a non severe manner.

    And these three options have to be followed in the same order



    COMMENTARY OF THE JALALAIN[18]

    This commentary is the work of two men named Jalal. The second Jalal (Suyuti), who was a Shafi’i scholar and a Sufi, and was regarded as being one the greatest Islamic scholars. He finished the work of the first.

    Men are in charge of, they have authority over, women, disciplining them and keeping them in check, because of that with which God has preferred the one over the other, that is, because God has given them the advantage over women, in knowledge, reason, authority and otherwise, and because of what they expend, on them [the women], of their property. Therefore righteous women, among them, are obedient, to their husbands, guarding in the unseen, that is, [guarding] their private parts and otherwise during their spouses' absence, because of what God has guarded, for them, when He enjoined their male spouses to look after them well. And those you fear may be rebellious, disobedient to you, when such signs appear, admonish them, make them fear God, and share not beds with them, retire to other beds if they manifest such disobedience, and strike them, but not violently, if they refuse to desist [from their rebellion] after leaving them [in separate beds]. If they then obey you, in what is desired from them, do not seek a way against them, a reason to strike them unjustly. God is ever High, Great, so beware of Him, lest He punish you for treating them unjustly.



    COMMENTARY OF IBN ABBAS[19]

    Ibn Abbas was Muhammad’s cousin and spent much time with him. He was regarded as being one of the great Muslim scholars of his time.

    (Men are in charge of women) they are in charge of overseeing the proper conduct of women, (because Allah hath made the one of them) the men through reason and the division of booty and estates (to excel the other) the women, (and because they spend of their property (for the support of women) through paying the dowry and spending on them, which the women are not required to do. (So good women) He says: those wives who are kind to their husbands (are the obedient) they are obedient to Allah regarding their husbands, (guarding) their own persons and the wealth of their husbands (in secret) when their husbands are not present (that which Allah hath guarded) through Allah's protection of them in that He gave them the success to do so. (As for those from whom ye fear) know (rebellion) their disobedience to you in bed, (admonish them) by means of sacred knowledge and the Qur'an (and banish them to beds apart) turn your faces away from them in bed, (and scourge them) in a mild, unexaggerated manner. (Then if they obey you) in bed, (seek not a way against them) as regard love. (Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted) above every single thing, (Great) greater than every single thing. Allah has not burdened you with that which you cannot bear, so do not burden women with that which they cannot bear of affection.



    COMMENTARY OF AL QURTUBI[20]

    "Qurtubi was from Cordova, Spain, a Maliki scholar and hadith specialist, he was one of the greatest Imams of Koranic exegesis."[21]

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others

    They provide for them, and from men come out rulers; princes & warriors, whereas this is not found among women.

    This verse was revealed because Sa’ad ibn Al Rabee’a slapped his wife Habibah bint Zaid after she deserted him. After which, her father said: O’ Messenger of Allah, I gave him my daughter (as a bed spread for him) but he slapped her. Then the messenger said: let us judge her husband. So she left with her father seeking judgment. But then the messenger said: come back, this is the angel Gabriel has come down to me. Then Allah revealed: (we willed something but Allah willed another). And in another story: (I willed something, but Allah willed something better).

    It was told that due to this incident, Sura 20:114 "…and do not make haste with the Quran before its revelation is made complete to you…" Was revealed.

    Abu Raouq said: this verse was revealed because of Jamilah bint Obey and her husband Thabit bin Qais. Al Kalby said: it was revealed because of Omayrah bint Muhammad bin Muslamah and her husband Sa’ad bin Al Rabee’a…Allah has revealed that the reason why men are excelled over women because men are the providers, and hence women will benefit from that. It is also said: men are excelled over women because they have more brain ability…

    and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion

    If the wife hates and desert her husband

    Admonish them

    By using Allah’s scripture. It means to remind them of their duties, toward their husbands, which were ordained to them by Allah. The prophet of Allah (saw) said: (if I was to order someone to prostrate to another person, I would have ordered the wife to prostrate to her husband)

    and leave them alone in the sleeping-places

    Ibn Masud said: it is the intercourse. As said Ibn Abbas and others.

    I (Al Qurtubi) said, it is a good thing; since if she loves her husband then this abandonment will be hard on her. But if she despises him, then her disobedient attitude towards him will become the more clearer.

    Ibn Abbas said: to leave them alone is to tie them up in their homes just as you would tie your ride. And this is Al Tabari’s own view on this. However, Judge Abu Bakr bin Al Araby renounced Al Tabari’s interpretation on the ground of tying the wife, as he believe that Al Tabari based his view on a strange hadith regarding Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr who was married to Al Zubair bin Al Awaam. She used to leave her home often until people began to gossip and fault her husband for that, As a result, Al Zubair blamed his second wife for this and tied Asma’s hair and the hair of his second wife together, then he beat both of them up very severely.

    This abandonment is believed by many scholars to be around a period of one month.

    and beat them

    Allah ordered that men begin by admonishing their wives as a first step, then abandonment, then beating if they refused to repent. This is because men are responsible to straighten their wives up. The beating mentioned in this verse has to do with the kind that is not severe and used for discipline. The kind that does not break the bone. However, it is not a crime if it leads to death. In the same manner a disciplinary will beat his son or student to teach him the Quran and manners.

    In a hadith in Sahih Muslim the Prophet said: (fear Allah with your wives. You were given them by Allah’s provision, and you were entrusted with their private parts by Allah’s word. You have the right that they do not allow anyone you dislike into your bed, but if they do, then beat them but not severely) the hadith. It was narrated on the authority of Jabir Al Taweel during Hajj. This means that they should not allow anyone into your home that you dislike whether relatives or foreign women.

    Al Tirmithi reported that Amro bin Al Ahwas had attended the Farewell Hajj and heard the messenger of Allah say: "Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY (fahisha mubina = adultery). If they do, then refuse to share their beds and beat them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE (fadribuhunna darban ghayra mubarrih*). Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision."

    Atta asked Ibn Abbas: what is the non severer beating. Ibn Abbas answered: using a small stick or the like.

    It was reported also that Omar beat his wife and said, I heard the messenger of Allah say: (No man should be asked why he beat his wife).

    You need to know that Allah did not allow for beating in his book except in this situation and when the major sins have been committed. Therefore, Allah has made the disobedient of wives equivalent to the commitment of major sins.

    And Allah granted this privilege to the husbands over the Islamic authorities (Rulers), and allowed it for them without the need for a judge or witnesses or evidences. They were allowed this because they were entrusted by Allah to handle to take care of their wives.

    Al Muhallab said: the permission was given to beat the wives when they refuse to sleep with their husbands. By comparison, if she refuses to serve him too then he is permitted to beat her too.

    Her disobedient and refusal to sleep with her husband is a ground for the husband to deny her her allowance and all of her spousal rights, along with that, the husband is allowed to admonish her; refuse to sleep with her; and to beat her. But if she repented, then all of her rights will be reinstituted. The prophet (saw) said: (Allah’s mercy is on the man who hang his beating lash (stick) and disciplined his wife).



    AL-NAWAWI (Reliance of the Traveller)[22]

    Nawawi is one of the great Islamic jurisprudence scholars. He was a 13th century Shafi’i scholar. His work was used by Ahmad Naqib in writing "Reliance of the Traveller". This book is a "Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law". From the section m10.12, "Dealing with a Rebellious Wife", page 540,

    "When a husband notices signs of rebelliousness in his wife (nushuz), whether in words, as when she answers him coldly when she used to do so politely, or he asks her to come to bed and she refuses, contrary to her usual habit; or whether in acts, as when he finds her averse to him when she was previously kind and cheerful), he warns her in words (without keeping from her or hitting her, for it may be that she has an excuse. The warning could be to tell her, "fear Allah concerning the rights you owe to me," or it could be to explain that rebelliousness nullifies his obligation to support her and give her a turn amongst other wives, or it could be to inform her, "Your obeying me is religiously obligatory"). If she commits rebelliousness, he keeps from sleeping (and having sex) with her without words, and may hit her, but not in a way that injures her, meaning he may not (bruise her), break bones, wound her, or cause blood to flow. (It is unlawful to strike another’s face.) He may hit her whether she is rebellious only once or whether more than once, though a weaker opinion holds that he may hot hit her unless there is repeated rebelliousness."

    If the wife does not fulfill one of the above-mentioned obligations, she is termed "rebellious" (nashiz), and the husband takes the following steps to correct matters:

    (a) admonition and advice, by explaining the unlawfulness of rebellion, its harmful effect on married life, and by listening to her viewpoint on the matter;

    (b) if admonition is ineffectual, he keeps from her by not sleeping in bed with her, by which both learn the degree to which they need each other;

    (c) if keeping from her is ineffectual, it is permissible for him to hit her if he believes that hitting her will bring her back to the right path, though if he does not think so, it is not permissible. His hitting her may not be in a way that injures her, and is his last recourse to save the family.

    (d) if the disagreement does not end after all this, each partner chooses an arbitrator to solve the dispute by settlement, or divorce.



    COMMENTARY OF E. M. WHERRY[23]

    Wherry was a Christian scholar who studied Islam and compiled a 4-volume set of various commentaries on the Quran. He was also able to identify the criticality of how the women is positioned in Islam and makes some in-depth comments.

    Men shall have the pre-eminence. The ground of the pre-eminence of man over woman is here said to be man’s natural superiority over woman. Women are an inferior class of human beings. "The advantages wherein God hath causes the one of them to excel the other" are said by the commentators to be "superior understanding and strength, and the other privileges of the male sex, e.g., ruling in church and state, warring for the faith, and receiving double portions of the estates of deceased ancestors (see Sale in loco). Men are the lords of the women, and women become the virtual slaves of the men. The holy, happy estate of Eve in Eden can never be even approximately secured for her daughters under Islam.



    The difference between the home-life of the Christian and that of the Muslim cannot be more clearly indicated than by a comparison of this verse with Gen. ii. 23, Eph. v. 28, and 1 Pet. iii. 7.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jafar00 View Post
    Then there is no point in debating the point any further if you stop at using an English interpretation of a word that can have 10 different meanings. One of which is separation which is supported by the verses after (oh context is a bitch) which talk about how to deal with separation or divorce.



    Nice diversion, but I have already posted extensively about this in another thread. Try going back 1500 years to call all the Kings, Queens and Noble paedophiles for marrying young. It was the custom AT THE TIME. I'm not going to say that again if you won't listen.



    Since there are other verses saying do not beat your wife, and hadiths to support not beating your wife, there is more evidence to say that wife beating is forbidden than evidence to support beatings. However the subject has still been debated and if you were to do it, it should be done with a small stick the size of your finger, without harming her and not on the face.

    Try it now. Tap yourself on the arm with a pencil.........

    Did it hurt?


    Once again. As shown above. jafar has chosen to take the coward's way out by saying "there is no point in debating the point any further".

    Like the kids who throw stones at windows, break them, then run away before the police arrive. Jafar comes here. Makes claims we all know to be outright lies in defending his hatred, and supporting terrorists. Then LIES again by insisting there is no point in talking about it. Probably because....liars have so much trouble remembering, and proving their lies.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius View Post
    First, I'd like you to provide some supporting evidence that sex with 9 year old girls was customary at that time. Please link to your sources for this statement. Marrying a 14 year old girl (post pubescent) is vastly different than marrying a 9 year old girl (pre-pubescent).

    Second, whether or not it was custom at the time is immaterial. Your prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl. Do you approve of that? A simple yes or no is all that is needed here.
    See http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...796#post581796 for a small list with supporting evidence.
    The marriage was consumated at puberty. There are records that she had breasts at the time. As was the custom among thousands of other people 1400 years ago.

    You can come back to me when you also condemn in the same breath...

    * Henry XI of Głogów who married Barbara of Brandenburg when she was 8 y/o
    * Isaac II Angelos the Byzantine emperor who married Margaret of Hungary at the age of 9 y/o
    * Humphrey IV of Toron who married Isabella I of Jerusalem when she was 11 y/o after betrothal at 8
    * Stephen Uroš I (Uros the Great) who was king of Serbia who married Helen of Anjou when she was 9 y/o
    * Stephen Dragutin of Serbia who married Catherine of Hungary, Queen of Serbia at age 11 or 12.
    * King Stephen Uroš II Milutin who married Simonida Nemanjić when she was 5 y/o

    ...... and many more

    Early marriage to unite clans, royal families was normal practise. Girls and boys were betrothed at early ages in order to secure alliances. In fact Aicha's betrothal was intended to strengthen Mohammed's (saw) ties with the family of Abu Bakr (as). She later became one of Islam's most revered figures.

    No more debate is needed on the subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
    Jafar the entire purpose for beating a person for transgressions is to inflict enough pain so that person will choose not to make the same transgression again! Its called corporal punishment and pain is its entire purpose, yet you now attempt to say pain is not the purpose for beating a wife. If it inflicts no pain( although it does actually inflict pain) then pray tell what is its purpose? If you say shame then shame needs not physical actions to be applied when words and other penalties apply much better.
    We know that wife beating is to inflict pain. It is barbaric punishment and your religion endorses it on a great scale.
    By the way , I promise you that I could make a man cry out by hitting him with a small stick the size of my little finger. You must have some damn small fingers if your little finger is the size of a pencil.--Tyr
    While I do agree you may inflict pain with a pencil, perhaps by poking an eye out, but tapping someone with one is merely going to get their attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    YOU posted it, not me, but we ALL know that ALL of the Muslim writings teach that it is ok to give beatings to ones wife. How does one poorly translate Arabic into "beat someone lightly", and then post it, and then claim afterwards that it was a poor translation. I'll simply have it further clarified from a friend today, who is not a psycho and isn't afraid to admit the tons of problems within Islam. Its is ALL over the writings that men are superior to women. But it's no big deal, as of course the women are "obedient" and they've been given 2 warnings already, so I suppose the beating is needed to bring them back to obedience.
    I don't see anything in what you posted to support beating one's wife.
    اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله

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    Quote Originally Posted by jafar00 View Post
    I don't see anything in what you posted to support beating one's wife.
    Then you are lying, I just posted a VERY LONG list of commentary direct from Islamic scholars. To say you don't see this CLEAR writing BY ISLAMIC SCHOLARS IS LYING. I'll give a few snippets for those not being ignorant, and again, ALL FROM ISLAMIC SCHOLARS:


    Ibn Abbas said {Men are the maintainers of women} means that the woman has to obey her man in all of what Allah has commanded her, this includes the kind treatment of his family, the protection of his money.

    Al Dhahaak said: the man is the maintainer of his wife by ordering her to obey Allah. If she refused; then he can beat her not severely.

    Al Zahry said: if a man hit his wife or wounded her, he is not to be charged, unless he kills her, then he shall be killed for murdering her.

    It means: admonish them, but if they refused to repent, then tie them up in their homes and beat them until they obey Allah’s commands toward you. Scholars said: the beating that is allowed by Allah is not the severe kind. Ibn Abbas said: not severe.

    Also, Ibn Abbas said: abandon her in bed, but if she refused to return, then beat her not severely and do not break her bone. Ibn Abbas said: the beating has to be with light stick or the like.

    Al Qassem narrated, the prophet said: "do not abandon your wives except in bed, and when you beat them, do not beat them severely".

    Ibn Kathir was also a Shafi’i scholar and is one of the distinguished Islamic scholars. His commentary (tafseer) is a favorite of Sunni Muslims. Excerpts from his commentary on 4:34 follow. The quote is very long, but it is of great value in describing how the woman is positioned in Islam, and it provides the theological justification for her beating. I quote from pages 50 through 53.

    "Because Allah has made one of them excel the other and because they spend from their means." Ash-Sha’bi stated that this excellence refers to the bridal money; for if the husband reprimands her, he shall not be punished and if she reprimands him, she will be lashed. "Therefore the righteous among women, are devoutly obedient" to their husbands. "And guard in the husband’s absence" her honor and his wealth. "What Allah orders them to guard." This part of the verse means that the guarded is he whom Allah has guarded.

    "As to those women on whose part you see misconduct (nushuzuhunna)." The reference is made to those who show disobedience. It is said that a nashiza – from the verb nashaza = to disobey – is a woman who disobeys her husband’s order, opposes and dislikes him. Therefore, if a husband feels the signs of her disobedience, he should give her advice, threaten her with Allah’s Punishment for her disobedience to her husband. This is because Allah has prescribed that a wife has a duty towards her husband and she should obey him, and that it is unlawful for her to disobey him due to his excellence. The Prophet said in this context: "If I were to order one to prostrate to another, I would order a women to prostrate to her husband due to the greatness of her duty towards him."

    "And beat them." If they do not abstain from their disobedience through both advice and desertion. However, the beating should be dharbun ghayru nubrah, i.e. light, according to the Hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim, on the authority of Jabir, who had quoted the Prophet as saying in his farewell pilgrimage: "And fear Allah in women, for they are your aides, and their duties towards you is that your beds should not be shared with someone you dislike. Therefore, if they disobey you, beat them lightly, and your duty towards them is that you should maintain and buy them clothes in a reasonable manner."

    Scholars said: dharbun ghayru nubrah means: The husband should beat his wife lightly, in a way which does not result in breaking one of her limbs or affecting her badly.

    One is due to the completeness of men’s brain over women’s deficiency, their management skills, and their extra requirement of worship; this is why men were chosen to be prophets; religious leaders; rulers; and enforcers of commandments; legal witnesses in a court of law; fighters in the cause of Allah; receivers of more share of the inheritance and in control of divorce. The other is their duty to pay dowry to their wives and provide for them.

    Admonish them

    Then advise them

    and leave them alone in the sleeping-places

    Do not share bed with them, or do not face them when sleeping on the same bed or do not have intercourse with them.

    and beat them

    Means in a non severe manner.

    And these three options have to be followed in the same order

    Men are in charge of, they have authority over, women, disciplining them and keeping them in check, because of that with which God has preferred the one over the other, that is, because God has given them the advantage over women, in knowledge, reason, authority and otherwise, and because of what they expend, on them [the women], of their property. Therefore righteous women, among them, are obedient, to their husbands, guarding in the unseen, that is, [guarding] their private parts and otherwise during their spouses' absence, because of what God has guarded, for them, when He enjoined their male spouses to look after them well. And those you fear may be rebellious, disobedient to you, when such signs appear, admonish them, make them fear God, and share not beds with them, retire to other beds if they manifest such disobedience, and strike them, but not violently, if they refuse to desist [from their rebellion] after leaving them [in separate beds]. If they then obey you, in what is desired from them, do not seek a way against them, a reason to strike them unjustly. God is ever High, Great, so beware of Him, lest He punish you for treating them unjustly.

    Abu Raouq said: this verse was revealed because of Jamilah bint Obey and her husband Thabit bin Qais. Al Kalby said: it was revealed because of Omayrah bint Muhammad bin Muslamah and her husband Sa’ad bin Al Rabee’a…Allah has revealed that the reason why men are excelled over women because men are the providers, and hence women will benefit from that. It is also said: men are excelled over women because they have more brain ability…

    Admonish them

    By using Allah’s scripture. It means to remind them of their duties, toward their husbands, which were ordained to them by Allah. The prophet of Allah (saw) said: (if I was to order someone to prostrate to another person, I would have ordered the wife to prostrate to her husband)

    and leave them alone in the sleeping-places

    Ibn Masud said: it is the intercourse. As said Ibn Abbas and others.

    I (Al Qurtubi) said, it is a good thing; since if she loves her husband then this abandonment will be hard on her. But if she despises him, then her disobedient attitude towards him will become the more clearer.

    Ibn Abbas said: to leave them alone is to tie them up in their homes just as you would tie your ride. And this is Al Tabari’s own view on this. However, Judge Abu Bakr bin Al Araby renounced Al Tabari’s interpretation on the ground of tying the wife, as he believe that Al Tabari based his view on a strange hadith regarding Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr who was married to Al Zubair bin Al Awaam. She used to leave her home often until people began to gossip and fault her husband for that, As a result, Al Zubair blamed his second wife for this and tied Asma’s hair and the hair of his second wife together, then he beat both of them up very severely.

    This abandonment is believed by many scholars to be around a period of one month.

    and beat them


    Allah ordered that men begin by admonishing their wives as a first step, then abandonment, then beating if they refused to repent. This is because men are responsible to straighten their wives up. The beating mentioned in this verse has to do with the kind that is not severe and used for discipline. The kind that does not break the bone. However, it is not a crime if it leads to death. In the same manner a disciplinary will beat his son or student to teach him the Quran and manners.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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