Which is more irrational? :)

[Robert A Whit]

The solution is simple. You don't knock on my door and try to convert me to a heretical cult with truly weird beliefs, and I won't have to call you terrible.

That's "you" plural. I recognize that you said you didn't do that sort of thing, and good for you.

How can you speak for my beliefs?

I apologize to you for you thinking my church is a cult. We had to get you to think that way perhaps. I assure you, we are no cult. Somehow you got steered wrong. And it was not the missionaries that steered you wrong given you said you never let any of them in.

[jimnyc]

When it comes to "BJs", one would assume.

No visuals, thank you!

[Robert A Whit]

Extract God from your argument and what, if anything, changes?

Let me define GOD then.

First in scientific terms.

At one point, nothing existed that humans could observe, then or now.

We can't describe the void but modern science believes that the void had no elements of any sort, no time, no laws of physics, no chemical bonds, nothing.

We now have what we see today. We can see very well that there is a universe.

My term for what created that is GOD.

Mundame posts she shouts loudly and furiously at strangers then she calls me terrible due to my religion?

I don't do any of that to strangers.

Been many years since i knocked on doors of homes to seek business.

Most door to door real estate salesmen blurt out, do you know anybody that wants to sell?

That in my view is not correct.

I made them offers. Not to sell their home, but I asked if they knew anybody that wanted to buy. If they did not, they might start out asking me what their home is worth.

But when you tell somebody you want to sell their home, they might as well be out in the street.

I got much better results with do you know a person who wants to buy property. I sold a lot that way and also got plenty of listings on homes.

[Voted4Reagan]

And yet the disbelieve it so much they feel the need to preach to all the believers.

Switch the dis and the believe. Sound like a religion that preaches?

Exactly...

and they certainly are more preachy about it!!

[logroller]

Let me define GOD then.

First in scientific terms.

At one point, nothing existed that humans could observe, then or now.

We can't describe the void but modern science believes that the void had no elements of any sort, no time, no laws of physics, no chemical bonds, nothing.

We now have what we see today. We can see very well that there is a universe.

My term for what created that is GOD.

I didn't ask for your definition of God; I asked how your argument would change if God were omitted. You can believe whatever you so choose; don't think climate change is an issue, I don't care. It's not much of issue for me either. What is an issue to me is the vast amount of energy we have consumed, and continue to consume. You think godless Africans use the amount of energy you or I do? I assure you, they do not. And if climate change is a natural phenomenon, and mankind plays little role in its progression, then the only thing we can do is adapt as it progresses. In order to do this, we wil need to conserve resources to effectuate our survival. (I.e.:heavenly salvation) Climate change proponents understand this, and some recognize that many people will not take the necessary precautions unless some evil outcome is forlorned. Eg: hell. Religion effectuates the same sort of manipulation of social behavior. Reason is wholly at the source of mankind's behavior, preying upon irrationality is just a far more effective mechanism. Why we concern ourselves with concepts devoid of reason is beyond me. I love the bumper sticker, "if you live your life like there is no God, you'd better be right." wtf is that supposed to mean? i cant lead a good life based upon my own reasons for doing so, or there's less of an incentive to do good if hell isn't? As though my believing in God's existence is the determinant of my behavior. dont get me wrong, if religion helps you to share and influence and be influeced by others in the furthemnt of goodness, good on you; inwoild think the ooof is in the pudding though, not the recipe.
Who cares what was before time, it doesn't make a difference, does it? Purely an intellectual exercise without any possible real life application. I don't believe in God per se, but according to your definition above, I too find it useful to explain things where people reject the concept that we cannot answer everything. But to me, its an exercise not unlike that of a placating a child who consistently asks 'why'. because God, thats why. So He, God, Allah, Buddha, etc. are all just tools to content us of our wary ignorance. Nothing that God explains Is truly explained; its just excused. Bertrand Russell once said, "What men really want is not knowledge but certainty."

[Robert A Whit]

I didn't ask for your definition of God; I asked how your argument would change if God were omitted. You can believe whatever you so choose; don't think climate change is an issue, I don't care. It's not much of issue for me either. What is an issue to me is the vast amount of energy we have consumed, and continue to consume. You think godless Africans use the amount of energy you or I do? I assure you, they do not. And if climate change is a natural phenomenon, and mankind plays little role in its progression, then the only thing we can do is adapt as it progresses. In order to do this, we wil need to conserve resources to effectuate our survival. (I.e.:heavenly salvation) Climate change proponents understand this, and some recognize that many people will not take the necessary precautions unless some evil outcome is forlorned. Eg: hell. Religion effectuates the same sort of manipulation of social behavior. Reason is wholly at the source of mankind's behavior, preying upon irrationality is just a far more effective mechanism. Why we concern ourselves with concepts devoid of reason is beyond me. I love the bumper sticker, "if you live your life like there is no God, you'd better be right." wtf is that supposed to mean? i cant lead a good life based upon my own reasons for doing so, or there's less of an incentive to do good if hell isn't? As though my believing in God's existence is the determinant of my behavior. dont get me wrong, if religion helps you to share and influence and be influeced by others in the furthemnt of goodness, good on you; inwoild think the ooof is in the pudding though, not the recipe.
Who cares what was before time, it doesn't make a difference, does it? Purely an intellectual exercise without any possible real life application. I don't believe in God per se, but according to your definition above, I too find it useful to explain things where people reject the concept that we cannot answer everything. But to me, its an exercise not unlike that of a placating a child who consistently asks 'why'. because God, thats why. So He, God, Allah, Buddha, etc. are all just tools to content us of our wary ignorance. Nothing that God explains Is truly explained; its just excused. Bertrand Russell once said, "What men really want is not knowledge but certainty."

Based on your opening shot, just fired my way, I would estimate you fancy yourself as an ultra authoritarian type of person.

I guess I do too.

I had to define GOD since once GOD is defined, one can then and only then examine the proposition of what if you omitted GOD. You left open to my imagination what you had to mean by that. I enjoy the universe and the fruits of it too much to remove GOD from my concepts.

As different the past century has been from earlier centuries, where back then the deal was finding a way to keep growing food for horses and other animals as population increased, so will in this century prove to be more changes that will help you not worry so much about energy sources.

I can make a powerful argument you need not worry for perhaps three more centuries. I suspect by that time vehicles powered by nuclear devices will be quite commonplace.

In college in 1957, my bet was by this time cars, trucks, etc would be powered by fuel cells. Proving I am not much of a predictor.

I see the climate doom types as, well to be blunt, sort of like snake oil salesmen. The sort who belong to those wild religions you don't like.

Other than Muslims, some Asians, and I suspect many living in South America, must of the world has pretty much cured over population. We import population or ours would be stagnating as is much of Europe, but for them importing population growers, aka Muslims.

Well you presented a fine argument about how you see religion. Tell you the truth, I am a Mormon. I believe my spot in the afterlife is a flat guarantee. I trust God that much.

I am not dismissing you point by point but i never try to impose my beliefs on you and I don't see how you could impose yours on me unless I was willing. I am not. You are not.

I offered in simple minded terms, not saying I am simple minded, but in terms too fundamental to deny. If you deny those terms, nothing i can say to change your mind.

I see this as sort of like you are denying the universe, the planets and all living forms of life.

All I can say to that is WOW!!!!!!

Back when I learned science, I think we were then taught the steady state of the universe theory and I fear you are stuck back in that same past. I accept the big bang theory. Seems to me it fits what happened and is happening.

Oh when you are fretting over climate change, keep in mind that it was then science to teach the steady state theory of the universe. Science was wrong so it changed. Climate change types will be forced to change by evidence. They predict doom. They won't get doom.

[logroller]

Based on your opening shot, just fired my way, I would estimate you fancy yourself as an ultra authoritarian type of person.

I guess I do too.

I had to define GOD since once GOD is defined, one can then and only then examine the proposition of what if you omitted GOD. You left open to my imagination what you had to mean by that. I enjoy the universe and the fruits of it too much to remove GOD from my concepts.

As different the past century has been from earlier centuries, where back then the deal was finding a way to keep growing food for horses and other animals as population increased, so will in this century prove to be more changes that will help you not worry so much about energy sources.

I can make a powerful argument you need not worry for perhaps three more centuries. I suspect by that time vehicles powered by nuclear devices will be quite commonplace.

In college in 1957, my bet was by this time cars, trucks, etc would be powered by fuel cells. Proving I am not much of a predictor.

I see the climate doom types as, well to be blunt, sort of like snake oil salesmen. The sort who belong to those wild religions you don't like.

Other than Muslims, some Asians, and I suspect many living in South America, must of the world has pretty much cured over population. We import population or ours would be stagnating as is much of Europe, but for them importing population growers, aka Muslims.

Well you presented a fine argument about how you see religion. Tell you the truth, I am a Mormon. I believe my spot in the afterlife is a flat guarantee. I trust God that much.

I am not dismissing you point by point but i never try to impose my beliefs on you and I don't see how you could impose yours on me unless I was willing. I am not. You are not.

I offered in simple minded terms, not saying I am simple minded, but in terms too fundamental to deny. If you deny those terms, nothing i can say to change your mind.

I see this as sort of like you are denying the universe, the planets and all living forms of life.

All I can say to that is WOW!!!!!!

Back when I learned science, I think we were then taught the steady state of the universe theory and I fear you are stuck back in that same past. I accept the big bang theory. Seems to me it fits what happened and is happening.

Oh when you are fretting over climate change, keep in mind that it was then science to teach the steady state theory of the universe. Science was wrong so it changed. Climate change types will be forced to change by evidence. They predict doom. They won't get doom.

For what its worth, I'm a registered republican; but I don think that means much. No more than if I registered democrat it would change my beliefs. Nor would my believing in God change my actions. I'm not denying the universe; I'm saying what purpose does it serve. If tomorrow Pluto smacked into the earth and vaporized life as we know it, it wouldn't fundamentally change how I live today. Would it you? If it did not smack into the earth, would it fundamentally change how you live your today? The fundamentals of religion have always been one of obedience to save one from sacrifice. The lesson of Jesus was to assuage that concern. That a sacrifice has already been made, just be obedient. I do abide, but not because of Jesus; but rather that I see no point in sacrificing a sheep to guarantee that the rains will come or some blight avoided. As you referred to the physical realms of the universe, the sun and earth, examining the history of religion about these discoveries shows a broadly fearful response of irrational behaviors. So your use of scientific discovery as evidence if God and religious devition to belief shstems is humorous to say the least. tKe evolution as an example; specifically man's descent from apes and cknsider the religious response. i mean really, anyattemlt to paint religion as scientifically more adeot than non-religious tyoes is asisine.

The essence of man is we seek to explain things, even things which need no explanation. Any purpose that God serves on Earth is really served by man. so it seems to always hinges upon heaven; the proverbial carrot. In that i should plow my fields because I need eat later is easily explained by the fact i harvest carrots that resulted from what i plowed previously. all very matter of fact; I dont need to god to justify my actions. If I live a life worth living, my way of living will live on. If I live a life not worth living, my way of life will surely perish. You want to call that heaven and hell, be my guest. Regardless, I hope we both are living a life worth living and heaven, as it is to be, is all around us.

[revelarts]

quite a conversation.
seems religious people are called terrible, weak, scary, manipulative, irrational, chidish AND pushy.
Anyone wonder why some religious folks might be a bit defensive?

no way to address it it all in a few words . i'l drop a few just touch a few items

I don't really see the point. If you need God as a crutch for explaining -if it's real then is it a crutch?- the rationale for natural laws and civil behavior, there is no rationale for 'natrual law' or universal basis for 'civil' behavior. I asked you to give me one on several occassions and you've only asserted that you don't need God. that's not a reason- then you're obviously weak of conscious conviction. Only obvious if you make a whole lot of assumption that you have not proved. More often its used as justification for going being uncivil. Frankly that not true. unless of course inviting people to church etc is BY NATURAL LAW' considered uncivil. There are some things which we can't explain the origin of, not if you open to the possiblity of GOD, it's called being open minded-ethics for example, yes with God you cnnot explain its origin OR its' boundaries but I don't need God to explain why killing someone is wrong why not, some people thinks it's OK to kill in the womb or ailing older folks or the inferior in germany. or any other action that is detrimental towards a thriving society is the way that it is. detrimental towards a thriving society? that utilitarinism not morality. And who decides what a Thriving socity is, well i guess it one that uses the 'right' amount of energy. I think eastern religions have a much better grasp of this than do western. they've got better grasp than atheist, that's for sure. Reason is surely enough to fulfill any meaningful ends that religion has. Is that's blind faith in reason, to do something it never has. But reason doesn't bode well when exposed to the truth of human beings as inherently selfish, AH a clear observation about human nature and it is a powerful tool in whitewashing misdeeds under the color of some higher calling. Didn't you just say REASON was a higher calling and a thriving socity i think Moa and Stalin said similar. Clearly I'm not religious, but I don't believe its all bad; ok, thanks I guess. I've little doubt that many a person has been assisted by God and religion and, if they believe themselves incapable of doing such things without God (meaning they lacked the scruples to behave as such otherwise), So you say man is selfish but when someone ask God for help and gets it, overcomes his nature somewhat, you then blame him for his weakness. Which (you Imply) Atheist like yourself don't have then God is benevolent and religion is a good thing. worse than a backhanded compliment no thanks. Is arrogance a fault or is that one that only religious people see as a problem.

Some people are okay with door-to-door stuff --- I'm seriously not.
sorry Certainly not with people who have the gall to want to interfere with my beliefs!!!
Interfere? Are your beliefs so sensitive that the very idea of someone approaching you with there own puts them in the position of galling you?

And I don't think there ARE any door-to-door salesmen much anymore, are there? I think that went out in the 1970s, IIRC.
Window sales people and lawn services go door to here fairly often.

Now they have people waylaying shoppers at BJs warehouse foods, trying to sign them up for home repairs with quite hard-sale tactics. I positively eat them up: they creep up on me in dark aisles with no one else around, sometimes they are even black men, and boy, I've written letters, complained on site, on line, more than once yelled furiously and very loudly at them --- when someone scares me I get angry. I think I've made a change --- the last time I was there the guy with the clipboard was buttonholing only couples and carefully staying only in the middle areas that are well lighted. I think there is a lot less tolerance than there used to be for intrusive people coming at strangers to sell or persuade them of something. There is so much more stranger danger than there used to be. I really hate intrusiveness. Somebody else's religion does not excuse that sort of behavior. Again, with the exception of revelarts, I don't think Christians do that sort of thing nearly as much as some of these cults that are trying to build up.

Mundame frankly it seems you have several overactive fears. seriously someone approaching you in BJ's to make a sale is scary. no offense but they don't have the problem.

I didn't ask for your definition of God; I asked how your argument would change if God were omitted. ...
Why we concern ourselves with concepts devoid of reason is beyond me.

While Robert made a few good points, points that many athesit like to wave off , the ethics question still looms large. Assuming "everyone knows" and "thriving society" are not reasons. tryants can make trains run on time and Did jeffery Dahner and Charles Manson know? Does the child molester know? Is MBLA worong or right, why? Is evil real or just a religious word. If there is No creator then, it's every man for himself, that's reasonable correct? the statanic commandment, "do what thou wilt is the whole of the law" is reasonable, society be d@mnned.

I love the bumper sticker, "if you live your life like there is no God, you'd better be right." wtf is that supposed to mean? i cant lead a good life based upon my own reasons for doing so,

Well theologically it's kind of a bad sticker. But the answer to you question is , sure you can do good things based on your own reasons, but it doesn't cover the bad you've done. That's a false religious notion that's implied in the sticker. that good deeds get people to heaven or keeps them out of hell

or there's less of an incentive to do good if hell isn't?
Well the fear of hell has keep some people from doing wrong from time to time. possibly made them to right a time or too as well. but see above.

As though my believing in God's existence is the determinant of my behavior.
just as the existence of a wife will change your behavior if you really believe in God your behaivor will change. But just as there are faithful good husbands and unfaithful poor husbands. Some Christians don't love God enough to make very many changes in their behavior either.

dont get me wrong, if religion helps you to share and influence and be influeced by others in the furthemnt of goodness, good on you; inwoild think the ooof is in the pudding though, not the recipe.

If you don't take time to look for the pudding and just assume the recipes a crok because others have said so then how would you know?

.

Who cares what was before time, it doesn't make a difference, does it?

if it's true it make a HUGE difference. There's another person in the room.
.
.

Purely an intellectual exercise without any possible real life application.

like the salvation army, the red cross, hospitals, the abolition of slavery, missionaries bringing modern health around the world, translating more human languages than any other in history and giving a written lauguge to as many, improving the lot of women, preaching idea of human equality world wide ...

I don't believe in God per se, but according to your definition above, I too find it useful to explain things where people reject the concept that we cannot answer everything. But to me, its an exercise not unlike that of a placating a child who consistently asks 'why'. because God, thats why. So He, God, Allah, Buddha, etc. are all just tools to content us of our wary ignorance. Nothing that God explains Is truly explained; its just excused. Bertrand Russell once said, "What men really want is not knowledge but certainty."

Certainy is what you seem to have. you don't seem content to allow for a mystery of God as a possibility.

Your faith seems fixed hard in what you call reason but you've ignored the places in your reason where you've filled in the blanks with nothing.
Science assume a lot and you've taken that bit of modern highpriestly cultural as gospel truth. where there are no scientific answers it's assumed there will be -evolution of the gaps- or, they are "not relevant".

Each of us humans is here only a very short bit of time , is it really that important what we think or do? why? do you know? are you certain or is it a mystery that leap over and just try to do some "good"?

[Missileman]

just as the existence of a wife will change your behaivor if you really believe in God your behaivor will change.

What kind of unimaginable monsters might pedophile priests be if not for their faith? Whew! Dodged a bullet there. Score one for belief in god.

[cadet]

I know, it's terrible. You can't turn on a TV or radio without some anti-preacher filling the airways.


If that's the best you can manage, hang it up.

I wasn't joking, my facebook is FILLED with atheism.
And I only have the 2 or 3 friends that are... Every single one I know HAS to tell me their atheist. And then ask ME what I am.
Then proceed to tell me I'm wrong.

I usually say something like "If you can preach to me, that means I can preach to you, want to accept Jesus? No? I'll stop when you stop."

[revelarts]

What kind of unimaginable monsters might pedophile priests be if not for their faith? Whew! Dodged a bullet there. Score one for belief in god.

what would they be if they really believed and acted what they are supposed to preach is the question?

They can't be much more the monster than they already are. using "good" as a cloak for their evil.
Jesus said something about Wolves in sheep clothing.

But by your standards who's to say what's a monster Missile? are you judging?

[Robert A Whit]

For what its worth, I'm a registered republican; but I don think that means much. No more than if I registered democrat it would change my beliefs. Nor would my believing in God change my actions. I'm not denying the universe; I'm saying what purpose does it serve. If tomorrow Pluto smacked into the earth and vaporized life as we know it, it wouldn't fundamentally change how I live today. Would it you? If it did not smack into the earth, would it fundamentally change how you live your today? The fundamentals of religion have always been one of obedience to save one from sacrifice. The lesson of Jesus was to assuage that concern. That a sacrifice has already been made, just be obedient. I do abide, but not because of Jesus; but rather that I see no point in sacrificing a sheep to guarantee that the rains will come or some blight avoided. As you referred to the physical realms of the universe, the sun and earth, examining the history of religion about these discoveries shows a broadly fearful response of irrational behaviors. So your use of scientific discovery as evidence if God and religious devition to belief shstems is humorous to say the least. tKe evolution as an example; specifically man's descent from apes and cknsider the religious response. i mean really, anyattemlt to paint religion as scientifically more adeot than non-religious tyoes is asisine.

The essence of man is we seek to explain things, even things which need no explanation. Any purpose that God serves on Earth is really served by man. so it seems to always hinges upon heaven; the proverbial carrot. In that i should plow my fields because I need eat later is easily explained by the fact i harvest carrots that resulted from what i plowed previously. all very matter of fact; I dont need to god to justify my actions. If I live a life worth living, my way of living will live on. If I live a life not worth living, my way of life will surely perish. You want to call that heaven and hell, be my guest. Regardless, I hope we both are living a life worth living and heaven, as it is to be, is all around us.

What would it mean? To be killed? Well, I expect I would transform to a being that then moves to be in the area of God. Nope, like you, I don't plan on much more change if any.

At no point do I plan to sacrifice animals. I seldom talk of Jesus but since you did, based on the Bible, he lived. I am aware that Roman history of that era was very good. Reading my very good books on that era, I don't see the Romans talking of Jesus. I understand a Roman historian mentioned him but don't recall him saying much about the man.

I have my personal reasons other than that why I believe I will be with GOD upon this body dying.

I don't put much stock in Genesis account of the beginning. But not to be cranky, back in those days they simply reasoned some things out and of course did not know much about the Universe. Heck, they did not even have those lids on toilets a man had to put back down for the ladies. You have not yet caught me discussing hell. A Plausible explanation is we live there right now. That we may upon death stay here to come back again or move to a higher plane where we may actually see GOD visit or even higher where we may be around GOD all the time.

If you want no part of that, don't become Mormon. We think it is our fate. (fingers crossed)

[gabosaurus]

How can you speak for my beliefs?

I apologize to you for you thinking my church is a cult. We had to get you to think that way perhaps. I assure you, we are no cult. Somehow you got steered wrong. And it was not the missionaries that steered you wrong given you said you never let any of them in.

There are devout religious leaders who equate LDS with Islam and Scientology. Says none of them follow the prescribed beliefs of God.

[Robert A Whit]

Say Logroller, et al

Bear with me for a few moments please

Do you accept that Alexander the Great lived and conquered Persia? And much more?
He lived before Jesus lived.

Do you accept Archimedes, Plato? Do you accept they lived?

I am asking because one wonders.

Do you accept that Davy Crockett lived? How about Thomas Paine?

I ask because you seem to accept those people.

This begs a question. If you accept them as having lived and done many things, based only on written records, what prevents you from accepting Jesus Christ based on written records?

Have you at any point read the new testament? I read part of it but I used to play it in my cars recording system. I tell ya, if you read up on Jesus, and understand what happened, you might convert yourself. I can't do it. If a person is willing to try, I could try but I am not a teacher of the Bible.

Originally Posted by Robert A Whit
How can you speak for my beliefs?

I apologize to you for you thinking my church is a cult. We had to get you to think that way perhaps. I assure you, we are no cult. Somehow you got steered wrong. And it was not the missionaries that steered you wrong given you said you never let any of them in.

There are devout religious leaders who equate LDS with Islam and Scientology. Says none of them follow the prescribed beliefs of God.

Could be they are cults. If you mean we don't follow the teachings of the entire Bible, you are not correct.

I wish all those calling my church a cult would visit for 4 Sundays in a row. I don't see how they then could claim we are a Cult. A cult is easy to spot. The first time in fact.

[Voted4Reagan]

There are devout religious leaders who equate LDS with Islam and Scientology. Says none of them follow the prescribed beliefs of God.

Name them.... Source please

I cant wait to see this.......