Muslim Prayer Coming to a School Near You

[Missileman]

What if other children walk by and see those children praying?! Gasp! Surely as much a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state" as a nativity in the town square, no?

Nope. As I stated earlier, there's a difference between praying IN school and praying AT school.

[red states rule]

Americans take stupid pictures too.

Unlike with the terrorists, our children are not conditioned to hate Jews, and Americans

And are not conditioned to believe murdering innocent people in the name of Allah is a good thing

[fj1200]

5 days? I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. What's in 5 days?

I believe that he is counting up. Presumably it's day five of the coming leftie invasion.

[Missileman]

Missleman I have given you a perfect example of a situation that happened to me not something I read so let me try this one more time

My wife and I have taught out children to give thanks for the food they have to eat at each meal and when they did so in school the VP of the school told them they could NOT pray in school that it may offend other students so honestly I don't see the confusion there seems pretty cut and dry to me

But what about at a graduation ceremony or sporting event ? we use to have a prayer before a football game asking that alll playing would be safe but no you cant do that any longer but now they want to make special time for Muslim prayer

The VP was one of those who can't distinguish between IN and AT. The VP was wrong.

The school cannot prevent students from praying before the game, however, the school can't legally intitiate it. I personally have no problem at all with students praying. I only have a problem with teachers/school admin/school boards who would use the classroom as an opportunity to proseltyze and/or indoctrinate. I don't take issue with religious symbols at school either as long as the playing field is equal for all religions.

[red states rule]

Here is a win for the good guys and a well deserved loss for the "offended"

A Texas court judge ruled today that the signs displayed by high school cheerleaders quoting biblical verses were "constitutionally permissible," and that the Kountze High School cheerleaders could continue to display them at the school's football games.


In his ruling, State District Judge Steve Thomas said that no law "prohibits cheerleaders from using religious-themed banners at school sporting events.


"The evidence in this case confirms that religion messages expressed on run-through banners have not created, and will not create, an establishment of religion in the Kountze community."


The ruling ended a controversial chapter in the small community of Kountze, about 95 miles northeast of Houston.


"We're excited, relieved, and glad it's over with," Coti Matthews, mother of one of the cheerleaders, told ABC News.com today.


"We're very thrilled that the judge ruled in our favor that girls will be able to use banners with Scripture during next season's football season," Attorney David Starnes, who represented the squad in court, told ABCNews.com today.


The high school cheerleaders had sued the Kountze Independent School District after after they were told they could no longer display the banners with religious messages over arguments that it violated the First Amendment.


"The response was, this was student led, student initiated, so therefore it was private student speech," Starnes said.


Thomas Brandt, the lead attorney representing the school district, told ABCNews.com, "The school district is in the middle of this debate. They reject both of the extremes. We adopt a middle. ... We think based on the evidence, that after studying the issue, our community was perceiving the ban as hostility toward religion."


http://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-rules...7#.Ua6Sxv3n-M8

[jimnyc]

No I'm no kidding at all.

Regarding unequal treatment--
Are Christian kids in that school disallowed from leaving class to pray-- yes or no?


If not, then the argument is moot.
To the second point, that of establishment. Do you mean to tell me that a student being excused to leave class and pray is no different than a prayer over the schools PA system? or being led by a teacher? Or a teacher having a crucifix on the wall?
I'm keenly aware of the contextual differences between the examples you offer for comparison. And this has been ruled upon long before our debate here, so just to rehash
So that's the minimum-- is this school establishing a state religion or religious faith by allowing certain students to leave class and pray?
No. A teacher having a religious symbol in plain view or leading a prayer clearly runs afoul of this. I am sympathetic to the argument that kids being excused from class to do something that isn't school-sponsored may run afoul of the pedagological interests; but then I could argue there are innumerable examples, even going to the bathroom, that need not be accommodated. Anyone with any experience with kids knows that some will abuse such privileges; and I dare I say it is a right to use the bathroom. Yet allowed it is....usually.
Interestingly, the 2000 supreme court case that forbid student led prayers over the public announcement system was levied by a Mormon and a Catholic. So this isn't just an issue among non-Christians being aggrieved.
There's a definite difference between a prayer over the public announcement system and kids being allowed to pray. There's a difference between kids being excused to pray and having a designated moment in class to pray. These differences matter, both logically and legally.

As for the one and all, (which is a fair argument) -- what about those kids who don't pray-- should they be forsaken their classroom learning time because other's prefer to pray?
Surely not.

Or should those who wish to pray just bust out their rug and go about it in the middle of a lesson? That would be distracting.

There's a balance between establishment and free exercise that can be found, but not through moot points on Christians being forbidden to do the same as Muslims when the examples of Christian predominance throughout our social character abound. It may be waning to some degree, but what is waning is not the right to express one's beliefs, Christian or otherwise, but rather it is the power to proselytize from the government stage that people have taken issue.

I don't believe they are, as the article only noted Muslims being able to do so. Nor has any other article. But it would be a bit dumb to assume something is allowed, simply because something wasn't said saying it wasn't allowed. I guess Christians can have mass prayer over loudspeakers in this particular school too, and prayer lead events in the auditorium, as it doesn't say they didn't ask and it doesn't say it's not allowed. No other school in the nation am I aware of will allow students a break from attending class in order to pray. In fact, this revelation about Muslims being able to do so is the first I've ever heard of any student in a public school being exempt from an amount of class time on order to go pray. Logic would dictate that if it were allowed for other religions, one of hundreds of articles would mention as much.

What I mean to say is that all other forms of religious displays and prayers are kept out of school, except for this instance. To say "Christians are allowed to pray in school too" - when that means they can silently not offend anyone else - is much different than a student being treated like he achieved something and can therefore leave the class to pray as a reward of sorts.

As to what happens to the kids who don't pray - they would stand in the same place whether only Muslims left, or if all those who pray left. I assume the class moves forward, but the students leaving are exempt from that 10 minutes.

The rest is mumbo jumbo and predominance stuff is absurd. When it comes to respecting ones religion and accommodations of one religion - they should all be treated 100% equally.

[Missileman]

No I'm no kidding at all.

Regarding unequal treatment--
Are Christian kids in that school disallowed from leaving class to pray-- yes or no?


If not, then the argument is moot.
To the second point, that of establishment. Do you mean to tell me that a student being excused to leave class and pray is no different than a prayer over the schools PA system? or being led by a teacher? Or a teacher having a crucifix on the wall?
I'm keenly aware of the contextual differences between the examples you offer for comparison. And this has been ruled upon long before our debate here, so just to rehash
So that's the minimum-- is this school establishing a state religion or religious faith by allowing certain students to leave class and pray?
No. A teacher having a religious symbol in plain view or leading a prayer clearly runs afoul of this. I am sympathetic to the argument that kids being excused from class to do something that isn't school-sponsored may run afoul of the pedagological interests; but then I could argue there are innumerable examples, even going to the bathroom, that need not be accommodated. Anyone with any experience with kids knows that some will abuse such privileges; and I dare I say it is a right to use the bathroom. Yet allowed it is....usually.
Interestingly, the 2000 supreme court case that forbid student led prayers over the public announcement system was levied by a Mormon and a Catholic. So this isn't just an issue among non-Christians being aggrieved.
There's a definite difference between a prayer over the public announcement system and kids being allowed to pray. There's a difference between kids being excused to pray and having a designated moment in class to pray. These differences matter, both logically and legally.

As for the one and all, (which is a fair argument) -- what about those kids who don't pray-- should they be forsaken their classroom learning time because other's prefer to pray?
Surely not.

Or should those who wish to pray just bust out their rug and go about it in the middle of a lesson? That would be distracting.

There's a balance between establishment and free exercise that can be found, but not through moot points on Christians being forbidden to do the same as Muslims when the examples of Christian predominance throughout our social character abound. It may be waning to some degree, but what is waning is not the right to express one's beliefs, Christian or otherwise, but rather it is the power to proselytize from the government stage that people have taken issue.

[jimnyc]

I never said it's not in the Bible. Even your own source says that the NT reference is someone following a Jewish tradition. Bottom line is your arguments that specific prayer times are a Christian tradition aren't true.

And yet there is, forgive me if I laugh at an atheist trying to tell me what I know about my religious habits and upbringing, and also insulting my intelligence by not reading the links I have posted backing up the tradition. And quite frankly, it matters not. Christians also have a tradition of kneeling with their hands crossed and eyes closed, in silent prayer for anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes or longer. So tell me, will this be allowed in the class while the teacher is teaching, or do they get time out of class as well?

[jimnyc]

Bottom line is your arguments that specific prayer times are a Christian tradition aren't true.

BB specifically asked for more on this earlier in the thread, and I followed up with yet another link for him to read on it. The fact that you are basically calling me a liar? Sorry if I laugh at the uneducated and uninformed atheist who scowls at everything Christian, even the things he is clueless about.

[jimnyc]

Bottom line is your arguments that specific prayer times are a Christian tradition aren't true.

As for your repeated posts telling me that I am lying, try reading instead of blurting out garbage. If you're too dense to understand what this all means, and that while not commanded, IS in the bible and IS a tradition for many to pray at specific times. An atheist acting like a scholar on things religious, is, well...

http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoff...ly_prayers.htm

[Abbey Marie]

Nope. As I stated earlier, there's a difference between praying IN school and praying AT school.

And what exactly do you mean?

[aboutime]

All of you should just STOP. Right where you are. Go back and read all of the dumb stuff you have found so many reasons to argue about on this thread.

At the end of the day. What has any ONE of you accomplished here? Other than making absolute fools out of one-another???

And if you include me. That's fine. The TRUTH has never hurt me, and never will.

[jimnyc]

All of you should just STOP. Right where you are. Go back and read all of the dumb stuff you have found so many reasons to argue about on this thread.

At the end of the day. What has any ONE of you accomplished here? Other than making absolute fools out of one-another???

And if you include me. That's fine. The TRUTH has never hurt me, and never will.

I've seen you do this at least a dozen times. People like to debate and we KNOW that very rarely will anyone ever change their mind. But we still debate. Should we ask the same of you when you post incessant stuff about Obama? Do you think you're changing someone's mind when you post? Honestly, I'm not sure what a post like yours is supposed to accomplish here.

[Abbey Marie]

I think it is absolutely ASTOUNDING that the people who are defending this school's accommodation of Muslim prayer, are the very same people who have continually argued that we should not allow Christian prayer in school. One would think they could be just a tad consistent, to avoid looking hypocritical at least. Probably just another sign of the times in which we live.

[aboutime]

I've seen you do this at least a dozen times. People like to debate and we KNOW that very rarely will anyone ever change their mind. But we still debate. Should we ask the same of you when you post incessant stuff about Obama? Do you think you're changing someone's mind when you post? Honestly, I'm not sure what a post like yours is supposed to accomplish here.

I posted my OPINION jim. That's what YOUR FORUM is for, and how it is supposed to be used.

No. I know I am not changing anyone's mind. That's why, what I said was...MY OPINION.

Further. Please share what ANY POST, or THREAD is supposed to accomplish here?
If I have done it a dozen times before. Count this as 13.

P.S. You normally WARN me about arguments being taken to the CAGE.
I merely used your tactic of telling people about the arguments.