How can modern men believe in a creator God?

[DragonStryk72]

The Jewish myth became corrupted the moment Christianity changed the moral of Eden from an elevation for man to a fall for man.

But who cares? The mental health of people is the more important issue and having all kinds of weird beliefs based on fantasy, miracles and magic is jus insane. Especially if you are to base a moral theology on what talking donkeys and water walking God/Man say.

Let us not forget that all biblical characters are mythical archetypes.

Many of the biblical figures are also real people, but, as you can conform almost any significant figure from the past into one of the mythical archetypes, that argument doesn't really get much traction.

Also, the story of Eden is both an elevation AND a fall. We became enlightened to knowledge, and, as consequence for our actions in obtaining the enlightenment, we were banished from Eden. That's been there for as long as the Bible has, and something we were taught about in Catholic school.

Edit: Actually, the moral points were never stated by magic. There were the 10 Commandments God gave, and then, for the most part, the other stuff was reinforcement of that core set of rules. Even with Christ, he used reasoned argument, and yes, he performed miracles, but they were never to teach a lesson, nor were they to teach morals. They were to save lives, and feed people.

Don't call me Surly. Kidding.

Let me work backwards from your last with this.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthre...see-how-Do-you

Take the evil we do as we evolve out of us and we go extinct. It follows that evil is thus necessary for us and therefore more good to man's present evolving perfection than evil.

So, you're using as evidence a thread that you were already disproven in? There is no perfection in man, and won't be. You trying to reword and repaint it as such doesn't change it. Proof? We can have our goal well in hand, and then we trip at the finish line, and completely screw ourselves out of it. There's more than enough evidence of this in the world.

--------------------------------

Good is easy to define.



-----------------------------------

That quote is not worthy and above it has been dealt with. I hope.

If you believe in the God of perfect work quoted, I do not understand how you cannot feel perfect.

Because, as God and Christ have stated, we aren't perfect. We were not made to be perfect, nor is perfection expected of us. Were we perfect, it would be expected of us.

[fj1200]

Just looking around you at nature, at the perfection and diverseness of earthly creatures....at the beauty in abundance of flowers and plants of every kind and medicinal use ....put here FOR mankind by God, the father and the creator. Everything (except for imperfect man) in perfect harmony and balance in nature. None of what you see around you is a product of mere biological evolution or happenstance. There is too much beauty and variety and too many infinite wonders in this world for it to have all merely "evolved" on its' own.

I'm not sure that I would classify nature as perfection and then classify man as imperfect. Balance in nature is a different thing.

I too recognize the perfection of creation. Most do not. How is it that you do not see that same perfection in man as I do?

Does God power to create perfection somehow stop at man?

God didn't claim perfection, he said it was "very good." Your translation may vary.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Many of the biblical figures are also real people, but, as you can conform almost any significant figure from the past into one of the mythical archetypes, that argument doesn't really get much traction.

Also, the story of Eden is both an elevation AND a fall. We became enlightened to knowledge, and, as consequence for our actions in obtaining the enlightenment, we were banished from Eden. That's been there for as long as the Bible has, and something we were taught about in Catholic school.

Edit: Actually, the moral points were never stated by magic. There were the 10 Commandments God gave, and then, for the most part, the other stuff was reinforcement of that core set of rules. Even with Christ, he used reasoned argument, and yes, he performed miracles, but they were never to teach a lesson, nor were they to teach morals. They were to save lives, and feed people.



So, you're using as evidence a thread that you were already disproven in? There is no perfection in man, and won't be. You trying to reword and repaint it as such doesn't change it. Proof? We can have our goal well in hand, and then we trip at the finish line, and completely screw ourselves out of it. There's more than enough evidence of this in the world.



Because, as God and Christ have stated, we aren't perfect. We were not made to be perfect, nor is perfection expected of us. Were we perfect, it would be expected of us.

No expectations eh.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

No one refuted anything in my other thread.

Read
DL

[fj1200]

No expectations eh.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Context.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm not sure that I would classify nature as perfection and then classify man as imperfect. Balance in nature is a different thing.



God didn't claim perfection, he said it was "very good." Your translation may vary.

Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit.

If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Translate his work is perfect to his work is jut good all you like.

Scriptures tell you not to add or subtract but most do not follow scriptures anyway.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Context.

Garbage.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Garbage.

Yeah, that's about what I expect.

[fj1200]

Translate his work is perfect to his work is jut good all you like.

Scriptures tell you not to add or subtract but most do not follow scriptures anyway.

There does seem to be some pointlessness to discussing this with someone who rejects context.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

There does seem to be some pointlessness to discussing this with someone who rejects context.

Ditto to one who ignores scriptures when not hiding behind them.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Ditto to one who ignores scriptures when not hiding behind them.

I don't ignore. It is what it is but what it is not is to be taken out of context. Which is where you reside.

[DragonStryk72]

Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit.

If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Translate his work is perfect to his work is jut good all you like.

Scriptures tell you not to add or subtract but most do not follow scriptures anyway.

Regards
DL

3I will proclaim the name of the Lord.
Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
4He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

This is what he means by context, which you keep ignoring to play those word games I previously mentioned. First off, He never actually says it, he says he will proclaim it. Now, you also have to ask, "What are God's works?"

Now, there are two basic summations on this. The first is the Calvinist version, which basically says God constantly creates every single little thing in, and all is pre-destined. This, however, defeats the whole point of free will, and as an engineer, I just couldn't imagine having to manually work a system this complex, or even wanting to.

The second is more in line with the Deist approach, and fits more with my belief on the subject. God created the natural laws to govern the Universe back at the beginning, thus allowing free will. It doesn't remove His knowledge of things to come, but shows it as more of a knowledge of what is going to happen, even seeing different paths that we could go down. Heck, we've discovered behavioral algorithms ourselves, to somewhat predict things.

More importantly, it allows for human error, which we can readily prove exists in great abundance. Not everything everyone says in the Bible is correct, it just isn't. In fact, the only place where it states that things are to be used verbatim is in the Book of Revelations.

So, by saying his works are perfect, it speaks of the Universe as a mechanism, as opposed to trying to speak about every little piece of every little thing. That's really for the anal-retentive Pharisee types, who want to use the words of scripture for their personal billy club.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

3I will proclaim the name of the Lord.
Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
4He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

This is what he means by context, which you keep ignoring to play those word games I previously mentioned. First off, He never actually says it, he says he will proclaim it. Now, you also have to ask, "What are God's works?"

Now, there are two basic summations on this. The first is the Calvinist version, which basically says God constantly creates every single little thing in, and all is pre-destined. This, however, defeats the whole point of free will, and as an engineer, I just couldn't imagine having to manually work a system this complex, or even wanting to.

The second is more in line with the Deist approach, and fits more with my belief on the subject. God created the natural laws to govern the Universe back at the beginning, thus allowing free will. It doesn't remove His knowledge of things to come, but shows it as more of a knowledge of what is going to happen, even seeing different paths that we could go down. Heck, we've discovered behavioral algorithms ourselves, to somewhat predict things.

More importantly, it allows for human error, which we can readily prove exists in great abundance. Not everything everyone says in the Bible is correct, it just isn't. In fact, the only place where it states that things are to be used verbatim is in the Book of Revelations.

So, by saying his works are perfect, it speaks of the Universe as a mechanism, as opposed to trying to speak about every little piece of every little thing. That's really for the anal-retentive Pharisee types, who want to use the words of scripture for their personal billy club.

Your bible says not to add to scriptures and here you are doing just that.


A perfect universe wold have to have all of it's bits perfect before being given that attribute.

Scripture say perfect. Not semi-perfect.

Regard
DL

[DragonStryk72]

Your bible says not to add to scriptures and here you are doing just that.


A perfect universe wold have to have all of it's bits perfect before being given that attribute.

Scripture say perfect. Not semi-perfect.

Regard
DL

I'm adding nothing, just interpreting. It does not say the Bible's perfect. After all, Leviticus was part of the Bible, but Christ showed up basically to strike it down, as observed by Paul, who spoke avidly against the Law (For the unknowing, Leviticus was the Jewish Book of Law). God's works are perfect. Men wrote the Bible, divinely-inspired as it may be, it was a work of Man, their interpretations of God's works, with only a few points where God acts or speaks directly. It can be much more accurate with talking about "Jesus said," and points that occur within the Bible historically. Prove me wrong, show me where God personally wrote the Bible. I think there just might be some evidence available to point to the idea that people wrote the Bible, though.

Now, I know you'll try some end-around on this so here we go with the cut-off: We put faith in it the same way you put faith in every link you've posted here. You don't personally do the research, but you believe them to be correct, whether they are or not. Now, of course, people go, "Oh, well the whole world didn't flood."

Well, that's a modern use of the word world. Remember how the Americas used to get called The New World, and Europe The Old World? Were they on different planets? No, of course not. It is only recently that we use world almost purely to speak of Planet Earth (Save for some of our older catches of phrases like "off in your own little world", and such). At the time Noah, it only meant "the world we know of", which was comparatively much, much smaller. But again, that requires understanding, and using, context.

[DragonStryk72]

Your bible says not to add to scriptures and here you are doing just that.


A perfect universe wold have to have all of it's bits perfect before being given that attribute.

Scripture say perfect. Not semi-perfect.

Regard
DL

Seeing as the Universe has been self-maintaining for over 10 billion years, and Earth over 4.6 billion years, I'd say that's a pretty perfect work of design right there.

Even shit serves a purpose in maintaining the world.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm adding nothing, just interpreting. It does not say the Bible's perfect. After all, Leviticus was part of the Bible, but Christ showed up basically to strike it down, as observed by Paul, who spoke avidly against the Law (For the unknowing, Leviticus was the Jewish Book of Law). God's works are perfect. Men wrote the Bible, divinely-inspired as it may be, it was a work of Man, their interpretations of God's works, with only a few points where God acts or speaks directly. It can be much more accurate with talking about "Jesus said," and points that occur within the Bible historically. Prove me wrong, show me where God personally wrote the Bible. I think there just might be some evidence available to point to the idea that people wrote the Bible, though.

Now, I know you'll try some end-around on this so here we go with the cut-off: We put faith in it the same way you put faith in every link you've posted here. You don't personally do the research, but you believe them to be correct, whether they are or not. Now, of course, people go, "Oh, well the whole world didn't flood."

Well, that's a modern use of the word world. Remember how the Americas used to get called The New World, and Europe The Old World? Were they on different planets? No, of course not. It is only recently that we use world almost purely to speak of Planet Earth (Save for some of our older catches of phrases like "off in your own little world", and such). At the time Noah, it only meant "the world we know of", which was comparatively much, much smaller. But again, that requires understanding, and using, context.

Follow the logic trail and stop blaming man for what your God did.
If God created even one atom that ended in man, then he is responsible for everything man does.

It is all in his great plan.

Regards
DL