Conservatism-It's meanings in American politic its true opposition to Islam/terrorism

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The main two and strongest opposition to the Islamic takeover of USA is Conservatives and Christians. Obama makes war on both every chance he gets. There is no such thing as a liberal Christian . A CHRISTIAN CAN NOT BE A CHRISTIAN and abide by and support liberalism IMHO. Obama's antigun crusade was an attack upon primarily those two groups because those two groups are the primarily the core of the patriots in this nation. --Tyr

[red states rule]

The main two and strongest opposition to the Islamic takeover of USA is Conservatives and Christians. Obama makes war on both every chance he gets. There is no such thing as a liberal Christian . A CHRISTIAN CAN NOT BE A CHRISTIAN and abide by and support liberalism IMHO. Obama's antigun crusade was an attack upon primarily those two groups because those two groups are the primarily the core of the patriots in this nation. --Tyr

In speech's Obama has called on his supporters to put their heels on the throats of Tea Party members, to get in face of Republicans, ahs called his political opponents enemies, and bragged how his supporters will bring a gun to a knife fight

Yet he refuses to call acts of terrorism terrorism, and continues to treat acts of terrorism as crimes and not acts of war

Seems Obama has the typical liberal priorities that embolden terrorists to continue their attacks

[fj1200]

The main two and strongest opposition to the Islamic takeover of USA is Conservatives and Christians. Obama makes war on both every chance he gets. There is no such thing as a liberal Christian . A CHRISTIAN CAN NOT BE A CHRISTIAN and abide by and support liberalism IMHO. Obama's antigun crusade was an attack upon primarily those two groups because those two groups are the primarily the core of the patriots in this nation. --Tyr

Liberal Christians would disagree.

[Drummond]

Yes, you are a joke, the challenge is not. Act like an adult, use your words, prove something. We can have a party and cake and such to celebrate your first time doing it.

Tut tut.

Such gratuitous denigration is evidence of concern for your position.

You rejected the idea of looking at the evidence I posted on incredibly flimsy grounds, so much so that I really had to ask if it was a joke. And, having done so once, why would I think you wouldn't do it again ?

But your support for FJ remains rock solid. It doesn't matter to you that I can defend what I say, and HAVE done. You're not interested in that, as you've proved. Support for a comrade, however .. that's a different matter.

[fj1200]

Recently, especially in Asia, some governments have urged that the standards of Human Rights laid down in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights attached to the UN Charter, are Western and therefore not suitable for Asia and parts of the Third World whose cultures and circumstances are different. But the dispositions of human nature are the same everywhere—the affection of mother for child, the wish to do better for the family, the desire of the child to please, the recognition of courage and heroism, and the suffering and torture are felt the same by all human beings. Further, I have no difficulty in accepting the view that human nature is naturally endowed with a moral sense and a disposition (albeit if sometimes fragile) to make moral judgements. It's not only Western man who is created in God's image.

.

[aboutime]

Tut tut.

Such gratuitous denigration is evidence of concern for your position.

You rejected the idea of looking at the evidence I posted on incredibly flimsy grounds, so much so that I really had to ask if it was a joke. And, having done so once, why would I think you wouldn't do it again ?

But your support for FJ remains rock solid. It doesn't matter to you that I can defend what I say, and HAVE done. You're not interested in that, as you've proved. Support for a comrade, however .. that's a different matter.

Sir Drummond. Remember this?....

[Born2DecadesLate]

I see no point in another attempt to have a rational conversation with you; You do not have the capacity within you. I know this will go in one eye and out the other, whether it gets into your head at all, but your view is based on the emotions of hate and rage. Conservatives should see the issues for what they are and be able to rationally discuss the issues. There is copious evidence that torture is counterproductive that you constantly ignore and your attempts to couch the discussion in terms of justice is evidence of your emotions on the issue.

I see no point. If you want to have a discussion on conservatism then we can have at it and if you truly are the conservative you think you are then we won't have much disagreement but your torture/terrorism stance is utterly contrary to a conservative position.

BS bro, torture works, and if any of you think that a little waterboarding and or sleep deprivation is all that US forces were doing to get information LOL, and if any of you thought that things changed just because Obama said they've changed LOL.

You know the real reason GITMO hasn't been closed in 6 years under Obama despite his promises? Because someone at the CIA told him "Mr President if you close GITMO nosy reporters are liable to start digging and find where we're REALLY torturing people at.

I've watched through a window as Mossad took a hammer to some terrorist's balls. "oh the US doesn't do things like that" No we don't , we just stand by while our allies do; AND if you knew the amount of real information gleaned from such tactics you would never say it didn't work.

Now of course whether we should be involved at all whether torture works or not is another matter entirely. Personally I say no.

[fj1200]

BS bro, torture works, and if any of you think that a little waterboarding and or sleep deprivation is all that US forces were doing to get information LOL, and if any of you thought that things changed just because Obama said they've changed LOL.

You know the real reason GITMO hasn't been closed in 6 years under Obama despite his promises? Because someone at the CIA told him "Mr President if you close GITMO nosy reporters are liable to start digging and find where we're REALLY torturing people at.

I've watched through a window as Mossad took a hammer to some terrorist's balls. "oh the US doesn't do things like that" No we don't , we just stand by while our allies do; AND if you knew the amount of real information gleaned from such tactics you would never say it didn't work.

Now of course whether we should be involved at all whether torture works or not is another matter entirely. Personally I say no.

Does Torture Work?

In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn't any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works. Torture is an extreme method, and before we even reach the ethical and moral debate over its use, the effectiveness of it must be demonstrated to some reasonable degree. The burden of proof lies with the people who seek to torture. Any trials would of course be deeply unethical, but it's not like they don't have plenty of past experience to draw data from.

And I think I agree with much of your post, I'm sure we've done worse but many pro-torture folks point to three waterboarding instances as their evidence. I have no problem with GITMO for what it is although I do think we need to deal with the people that are in there. And I clearly don't have firsthand knowledge but what I said in the post you quoted was that it's counterproductive.

And was that a no that you think we shouldn't torture?

[Born2DecadesLate]

Does Torture Work?


And I think I agree with much of your post, I'm sure we've done worse but many pro-torture folks point to three waterboarding instances as their evidence. I have no problem with GITMO for what it is although I do think we need to deal with the people that are in there. And I clearly don't have firsthand knowledge but what I said in the post you quoted was that it's counterproductive.

And was that a no that you think we shouldn't torture?

Of course you have no proof that torture works because I, and others like me, are prevented from saying "hey I beat the shit out of ______ and he told me ____________ and it was true"

we are prevented from disclosing so many things. Unless you're a scumbag like Snowden you are going to honor the reams of documents you've signed agreeing to keep quiet.

but , between you and me, you hit someone in the balls with a hammer enough times and they will break. Will everything they tell you be true? No of course not, that is what coorebarating intel is for. But, they won't keep anything from you either.

But , no. I do NOT believe the US should be torturing people, even though I myself have done it. And here's why.

It dehumanizes the detainee. No, I don't mean it makes them feel less human, I frankly don't care what they feel. I mean it makes them SEEM less human, which leads the person doing the torturing to go further and further. because they begin to think of the other person as non human It's not as a big step from water boarding to pulling teeth out with a pair of pliers as one may think.

[fj1200]

Of course you have no proof that torture works because I, and others like me, are prevented from saying "hey I beat the shit out of ______ and he told me ____________ and it was true"

we are prevented from disclosing so many things. Unless you're a scumbag like Snowden you are going to honor the reams of documents you've signed agreeing to keep quiet.

but , between you and me, you hit someone in the balls with a hammer enough times and they will break. Will everything they tell you be true? No of course not, that is what coorebarating intel is for. But, they won't keep anything from you either.

But , no. I do NOT believe the US should be torturing people, even though I myself have done it. And here's why.

It dehumanizes the detainee. No, I don't mean it makes them feel less human, I frankly don't care what they feel. I mean it makes them SEEM less human, which leads the person doing the torturing to go further and further. because they begin to think of the other person as non human It's not as a big step from water boarding to pulling teeth out with a pair of pliers as one may think.

I could only counter the first part with some CIA guy or ex-interrogator corroborating any other links I've posted. And honestly, revelarts will bury you with links like that if you think it's necessary. And anyway I think the argument would be unnecessary as it seems we agree on the overall point. I've posted this before and it goes a little further.

1) Torture violates the dignity of the human being, made in the image of God.
2) Torture mistreats the vulnerable and violates the demands of justice.
3) Authorizing torture trusts government too much.
4) Torture dehumanizes the torturer.
5) Torture erodes the character of the nation that tortures.

http://justpeacemaking.org/david-gushee-on-the-torture-and-the-detainee-task-force-part-i/

I like number 3 because it's nice when a leftie makes a rightie argument.

[Born2DecadesLate]

I could only counter the first part with some CIA guy or ex-interrogator corroborating any other links I've posted. And honestly, revelarts will bury you with links like that if you think it's necessary. And anyway I think the argument would be unnecessary as it seems we agree on the overall point. I've posted this before and it goes a little further.


http://justpeacemaking.org/david-gushee-on-the-torture-and-the-detainee-task-force-part-i/

I like number 3 because it's nice when a leftie makes a rightie argument.

I agree with you about not using torture. I wholeheartedly disagree with all claims that it doesn't glean the information you want. It does. What every person who has used torture will tell you is that it yields false positives as well as positive positives . No one will ever say "nope, torture doesn't work , some guys can resist and not tell you what you want to know" because NO ONE can resist, everyone breaks, eventually.

So, that isn't why torture doesn't work, it doesn't work because people will say ANYTHING to make pain stop. That anything WILL include what you really want to know, but often times sifting through the unwanted garbage is more time consuming than it is worth, OR by the time you do, the real intel is already outdated. It certainly doesn't do any good electrocute a man's testicles and then get the intel you need too late to do anything with it. So in THAT sense, torture often does not work, but in the sense of " can anyone withstand torture and not break?" the answer is no, torture does work in that regard

And I don't know who Revelarts is, but I suspect if his family were abducted by Muslim scum and one of them was captured and he was given the choice of whether an FBI agent in a suit interrogated the guy, or I did, I suspect he'd choose me.

However, I still maintain that as a general rule the US should not torture.

[fj1200]

^Fair enough.

[jimnyc]

I could only counter the first part with some CIA guy or ex-interrogator corroborating any other links I've posted. And honestly, revelarts will bury you with links like that if you think it's necessary.

I love you Rev, but this was a little comical.

Give the man credit though, while he posts novels, he DOES take the time to research what he believes in!

[Born2DecadesLate]

Just a hunch here, but it seems this board has mostly members who at least claim to be conservatives?

[Abbey Marie]

I agree with you about not using torture. I wholeheartedly disagree with all claims that it doesn't glean the information you want. It does. What every person who has used torture will tell you is that it yields false positives as well as positive positives . No one will ever say "nope, torture doesn't work , some guys can resist and not tell you what you want to know" because NO ONE can resist, everyone breaks, eventually.

So, that isn't why torture doesn't work, it doesn't work because people will say ANYTHING to make pain stop. That anything WILL include what you really want to know, but often times sifting through the unwanted garbage is more time consuming than it is worth, OR by the time you do, the real intel is already outdated. It certainly doesn't do any good electrocute a man's testicles and then get the intel you need too late to do anything with it. So in THAT sense, torture often does not work, but in the sense of " can anyone withstand torture and not break?" the answer is no, torture does work in that regard

And I don't know who Revelarts is, but I suspect if his family were abducted by Muslim scum and one of them was captured and he was given the choice of whether an FBI agent in a suit interrogated the guy, or I did, I suspect he'd choose me.

However, I still maintain that as a general rule the US should not torture.

Perhaps our poster knows if spanking elicits good info. or outdated intel...