Time for "socialist" healthcare?

[Trigg]

What would be useful would be for people to critically think about the issues rather than let themselves be beguiled by slogans and by outright propaganda. One of the questions I like to ask myself about anyone's presentation on a topic is, "what's in it for them?"

Many of us unenlightened americans have friends and relatives in European countries. We listen to them complain about the high taxes and waiting weeks/months for simple hopspital procedures, that would be done next day here in the states.

We have a gov. that is incharge of the VA hospitals and if you've ever worked in or gone to one of them you would know what a mess they are. Understaffed, old equipment and dirty, they offer huge bonuses to people willing to come work there. These are the people we DO NOT want in charge of public hospitals.

Socialized medicine is a mess in Europe. What we have here isn't perfect but it's better than the alternatives I've heard about.

[diuretic]

Many of us unenlightened americans have friends and relatives in European countries. We listen to them complain about the high taxes and waiting weeks/months for simple hopspital procedures, that would be done next day here in the states.

We have a gov. that is incharge of the VA hospitals and if you've ever worked in or gone to one of them you would know what a mess they are. Understaffed, old equipment and dirty, they offer huge bonuses to people willing to come work there. These are the people we DO NOT want in charge of public hospitals.

Socialized medicine is a mess in Europe. What we have here isn't perfect but it's better than the alternatives I've heard about.

I would think that where the health system, such as you've described above, is failing then it's due to under-funding by government. Under-funding a system will bring it to its knees for sure. But the principle of either a national health care system such as in the UK or the single payer approach as in Canada and Australia (just two examples) aren't damaged by incompetent government.

Where I live there's just been a report issued about the performance of our hospitals, the last on the list is a private one, the top several are government run. But that's just here. As soon as the contract for the big private hospital is out of time our state government is going to take it back again and build it up again. The profit motive is good for many things but not for a public health system.

The VA system is obviously underfunded as well. I keep reading about how bad it is, I can't believe that a government which seems to value its veterans can do them such ill.

[Hobbit]

I would think that where the health system, such as you've described above, is failing then it's due to under-funding by government. Under-funding a system will bring it to its knees for sure. But the principle of either a national health care system such as in the UK or the single payer approach as in Canada and Australia (just two examples) aren't damaged by incompetent government.

Where I live there's just been a report issued about the performance of our hospitals, the last on the list is a private one, the top several are government run. But that's just here. As soon as the contract for the big private hospital is out of time our state government is going to take it back again and build it up again. The profit motive is good for many things but not for a public health system.

The VA system is obviously underfunded as well. I keep reading about how bad it is, I can't believe that a government which seems to value its veterans can do them such ill.

Nothing run by the government is immune to government beauracracy, and the 'profit motive' as you call it, is the number one incentive to drive just about everything. Good will and charity are nice, but they're inconsistant. There is absolutely nothing that the government does well or efficiently, and putting politicians in charge of our health care will make it monolithic, innefficient, and poor, just like Social Security, the DMV, schools, VA hospitals, etc. etc.

Oh, and the 'lack of funding' excuse is just that, an excuse. No matter what the government does, it can typically be done both better and cheaper by the private sectore. Just look at schools. Atlanta city schools spend more per student than any other school in the state, but are also the crappiest schools in the state. They spend 2-3 times as much per student as private schools that are far better.

[Trigg]

Nothing run by the government is immune to government beauracracy, and the 'profit motive' as you call it, is the number one incentive to drive just about everything. Good will and charity are nice, but they're inconsistant. There is absolutely nothing that the government does well or efficiently, and putting politicians in charge of our health care will make it monolithic, innefficient, and poor, just like Social Security, the DMV, schools, VA hospitals, etc. etc.

Oh, and the 'lack of funding' excuse is just that, an excuse. No matter what the government does, it can typically be done both better and cheaper by the private sectore. Just look at schools. Atlanta city schools spend more per student than any other school in the state, but are also the crappiest schools in the state. They spend 2-3 times as much per student as private schools that are far better.

Exactly!!!!!

[diuretic]

Nothing run by the government is immune to government beauracracy, and the 'profit motive' as you call it, is the number one incentive to drive just about everything. Good will and charity are nice, but they're inconsistant. There is absolutely nothing that the government does well or efficiently, and putting politicians in charge of our health care will make it monolithic, innefficient, and poor, just like Social Security, the DMV, schools, VA hospitals, etc. etc.

Oh, and the 'lack of funding' excuse is just that, an excuse. No matter what the government does, it can typically be done both better and cheaper by the private sectore. Just look at schools. Atlanta city schools spend more per student than any other school in the state, but are also the crappiest schools in the state. They spend 2-3 times as much per student as private schools that are far better.

I have to disagree with the idea that private companies always do better than government. It's just not the case. I can't take up the schools in Atlanta issue because I know nothing about it so I'll take that as given. But you know we could cite case after case to try and make a point and in the end it's a bit pointless. I just happen to believe that there are some things that government should do and there are some things that private companies should do. The provision of health services in my country at least is done by government and the private sector. But we have a single-payer system like Canada (although it's federal here and not provincial). The federal government provides funding to the states to run the health system. We have a parallel private system that can be accessed by those who can afford it or who have private health cover. It's not perfect but it works pretty well.

I do think that private companies and government should stay out of each other's turf though. I don't want to buy a tv built by my government (bloody thing would probably watch me anyway).

Lack of funding isn't an excuse, it's a reason. If any system is underfunded, whatever it's role, it's not going to function properly. Isn't that the case with anything?

I don't know much about your social security system. Ours works okay but again we're a small nation just over 20 million people and not a complex society, so running it isn't a huge task. A number of years ago our then federal government knew that in the future our aged pension system wouldn't be able to fund the number of expected retirees so a compulsory superannuation scheme was introduced and personal superannuation encouraged. That's paying off now. It just takes a bit of planning by governments that actually govern.

I think in the US it seems to have been an article of faith that small government is the way to go. Well that's fine but if you allow your government, at whatever level, to shrink then things like crappy VA hospitals are going to happen. There's a need for balance between what government is there to do and what can be done by the private sector. Not much point in my banging on about it though, won't change anything and I'm only expressing a personal view out of interest, not trying to change anyone's mind.

[Hobbit]

Name one example, citing some sort of proof, that you truly believe the government does a better job at than the private sector. Law enforcement and the military don't count, as they require the use of force, a power strictly reserved for the government.

Edit: Remember, EVERY major medical advancement in the past 150 years has been discovered in the private sectors by people working for money. All in all this has extended the human life span by about 20 years. The biggest things the government ever did were space exploration and interstate highways, and in the case of space exploration, they wouldn't allow anybody else to even try.

[diuretic]

Name one example, citing some sort of proof, that you truly believe the government does a better job at than the private sector. Law enforcement and the military don't count, as they require the use of force, a power strictly reserved for the government.

Edit: Remember, EVERY major medical advancement in the past 150 years has been discovered in the private sectors by people working for money. All in all this has extended the human life span by about 20 years. The biggest things the government ever did were space exploration and interstate highways, and in the case of space exploration, they wouldn't allow anybody else to even try.

Okay. Melbourne has privatised public transport and it stinks.

LATE, cancelled, slow, dirty, second-hand trains. Trains almost bursting with commuters, while those who can't get on watch them trundle off. Meagre timetables and "Connex apologises for any inconvenience …" The train system is a mocking shadow of what it once was. The Liberal government blithely privatised it and the Labor Government has run it into the ground. Spin, buckpassing and dubious statistics are no answer to the daily frustrations inflicted on commuters.

That's a letter to The Age, a Melbourne daily newspaper, it's in today's edition.. The Connex privatised train system is a mess and Melburnians are cursing it daily. Why is it so? Because Connix is trying to make a profit and has cut back on the standard of service to make that profit.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/letter...e#contentSwap1

You're wrong about the medical research, dead wrong. Let's take one advance. Pencillin? Fleming and Florey and the team? University-based research and nothing to do with the private sector. What you mean, I think, is that the big pharmaceutical companies have cranked up research so they can make money out of drugs. No problem there, they can do that. Problem lies where they choose to do it. Only in areas that make a profit. Non-profit areas have to have research as well, usually government funded.

[Hobbit]

Okay. Melbourne has privatised public transport and it stinks.



That's a letter to The Age, a Melbourne daily newspaper, it's in today's edition.. The Connex privatised train system is a mess and Melburnians are cursing it daily. Why is it so? Because Connix is trying to make a profit and has cut back on the standard of service to make that profit.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/letter...e#contentSwap1

I'm guessing that they're a monopoly and that there's not a competing public transportation system in the same city? The system may now be privately owned, but it's still a government-enforced monopoly. Good find, though. I'll give you that. Still, it's more like the old Bell System in the U.S. than true private enterprise. The Bell System was privately owned, but the government made sure that it was the ONLY phone company. The phones sucked. The lines sucked. It was really expensive. Etc. etc.

You're wrong about the medical research, dead wrong. Let's take one advance. Pencillin? Fleming and Florey and the team? University-based research and nothing to do with the private sector. What you mean, I think, is that the big pharmaceutical companies have cranked up research so they can make money out of drugs. No problem there, they can do that. Problem lies where they choose to do it. Only in areas that make a profit. Non-profit areas have to have research as well, usually government funded.

It still wasn't government doing it. Most university research was privately, not publicly funded, unlike now, where there's so many government grants that just about everybody has one. I also take it that they, uh, sold their little invention to the public, rather than just handing it over to the government for distribution?

[Psychoblues]

You have taken the bait and swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Not this American. Social Security, as it is configured now, is simply theft.

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!

[Psychoblues]

Yes.

We have touched on this topic before in other threads.

Is health care a right granted to US citizens?

Do corporations have a right to destroy the health of our environment, our economy and our citizens and walk away as if they did nothing at all to create the dilemmas as proposed?

[LOki]

You have taken the bait and swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Explain?

[Psychoblues]

You're hooked and caught.

Explain?

I can't help that for you. I worry about the other little fishes that might take the same bait. I am SUPER BASS!!!!!!!!!!

[theHawk]

Explain?

Think he forgot to take his meds again.

[LOki]

You're hooked and caught.

Explain?

[DragonStryk72]

Thanks for those responses. It appears that it's social conditioning - some might call it social engineering. I would think that it would be useful to describe or even list the desirable features of a heatlh system and then see which system provides those desirable features rather than any of us have a reflexive response.

That is the way it should be, but currently isn't. We are too much becoming a rhetoric society, we base our opinions mainly on sound bites that we snatch from various places. This is evident by just how often we are bludgeoned with slogans, and how effective they are. There should be an enlightened debate on this, and those like Hobbit, who responded against the idea with actual statistical facts and figures, are joining that debate. But thanks to the Red Scare, with so many years of conditioning, alot of people instictively closed ears and minds to the subject.