Libertarians

[Gunny]

Gunny, you're trying to defy the saying 'No man is an island'. Fact is that none of us are immune to being influenced by what we see, hear, learn about the world we live in. Everything has its input. And there are those who understand this, and try to be opportunistic on the back of it.

In my society, Socialists are forever preaching in some form or other, trying to set parameters of what they say are 'decent beliefs and standards' ... which is how our NHS is so well respected (despite the many disasters it's visited upon us), or why so many not only shun the idea of carrying guns, but even consider the very notion of it 'uncivilised'. Or how to be critical of Muslims, or Islam, or not believe that 'Islam is a religion of peace' means that you're bigoted or racist, or both.

They've worked on this process for decades and have done much to shape attitudes here. The principle is tried and tested: 'plug into society, and society plugs into you'.

Americans place a greater value on freedoms, liberty, etc ... so are protected from massive excesses of what I'm talking about. But nobody is immune. Can you guarantee to watch or listen to a debate programme, or news item, or current affairs broadcast, and know it cannot possibly shape any view of yours, or sway you even a little ?

You say you can't be labeled. But you carry SOMETHING of what has been fed to you through the media. We all do.

Your 'Ask FJ' suggestion, by the way, is meaningless. FJ professes to be something he's not .. he identifies with labels, deliberately so, but FALSELY. He'd have me believe he's a Thatcherite (he is not) and a Libertarian, both at the same time. That males zero sense ... Margaret Thatcher was no Libertarian, she FOUGHT Libertarians in the UK, and did it through State machinery.

You're missing the point.

[Drummond]

Again a problem in understanding our differing types of English.

Your 'public schools,' are our private schools. Your 'right' is our left, politically and in driving.

Fair comments !

And I basically take your political point. It could be said that, these days at any rate, even our Conservative Party is 'left wing'. For example, you probably ask yourselves, in America, just what kind of Conservative Party would have its leader fight for gay marriage, and a National Health Service.

It's been said that UK Libertarians are Left wing. At their heart, YES, they are. A spirit of Libertarianism drove early Trade Unionism. Those identifying today specifically as Libertarians seem at first glance to be Right wing (certainly by British standards) .. yet, tucked away in their Party Manifesto (our Libertarians will happily use Governmental, authoritarian means to advance their cause, seeing NO difficulty in doing that !) you can find Left wing aspirations.

Thing is ... HERE, the Left have had GENERATIONS to skew the entire political landscape so that it's more likely to lean Leftwards. What I've been trying to say, in this and other threads, is that even if your Left hasn't made such a shift stick in your society, I absolutely assure you that they will WANT to !!!

What matters is that their power-base is never so strong in the US that they can make it happen. You need to turf them out of positions of authority and KEEP them out. If you don't .. they will make their inroads into peoples' thinking, and the drift will commence.

[Drummond]

You're missing the point.

Possibly.

But that doesn't negate the truth of what I'm saying.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Possibly.

But that doesn't negate the truth of what I'm saying.

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The problem is trying to define a single word/term for libertarians. A single word can not work when comparing the two entities, those in USA with those in Britain.

Those in Britain are African Elephants while those in USA are Indian elephants.
Brits libertarians are huge and wield massive disrupting and corrosive influence while those here are smaller and vastly less influential.

You are dead on in the description you relay about the Brits and the level of success(bad) they have achieved .
Question is , can that happen here ? I say no way by libertarians alone but they are not alone, they are united often with hardcore leftists/socialists, anarchists and other corrupt idiots that care not a damn whit about security, longevity and sustain prosperous culture based upon freedom and capitalism!
Instead they want results now regardless of the costs and they often even ignore the fact that some of those changes have the potential to give rise to our downfall as a nation.

I am far right yet I am in no way a libertarian because I reject the entirety of their philosophy even if I often may agree with certain specific issues they support..--Tyr

[tailfins]

Possibly.

But that doesn't negate the truth of what I'm saying.

Your point of view matches what Rush Limbaugh says about leftists: They demand to be judged by their intentions, not the results of their failed policies. One Libertarian deed is to siphon votes from conservative Republican candidates. If they are sincere in not advancing statism, they will focus on elective offices that make Democrats spend money on otherwise uncontested races. It would be helpful if a Libertarian were to win a big city Mayor race in a place like Philly, Atlanta, SF, Boston or NYC.

[Gunny]

Possibly.

But that doesn't negate the truth of what I'm saying.

There is no truth. The fact that libertarians in this country are far right negates your argument though.

[Drummond]

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The problem is trying to define a single word/term for libertarians. A single word can not work when comparing the two entities, those in USA with those in Britain.

Those in Britain are African Elephants while those in USA are Indian elephants.
Brits libertarians are huge and wield massive disrupting and corrosive influence while those here are smaller and vastly less influential.

You are dead on in the description you relay about the Brits and the level of success(bad) they have achieved .
Question is , can that happen here ? I say no way by libertarians alone but they are not alone, they are united often with hardcore leftists/socialists, anarchists and other corrupt idiots that care not a damn whit about security, longevity and sustain prosperous culture based upon freedom and capitalism!
Instead they want results now regardless of the costs and they often even ignore the fact that some of those changes have the potential to give rise to our downfall as a nation.

I am far right yet I am in no way a libertarian because I reject the entirety of their philosophy even if I often may agree with certain specific issues they support..--Tyr

Well, there it is, then. Tyr, many thanks.

From your description, your Libertarians aren't so very different from ours, in the UK. They unite 'often with hardcore leftists/socialists' .. ? Yet, I'm told your Libertarians are very RIGHT wing ?

And since when was it remotely compatible with a Conservative outlook to ever countenance behaviour, ideas, goals, which could EVER be injurious to security ??

NO ... sounds a lot more like UK Trade Unionism !! I don't think your Libertarians are so very different. Sounds like they share the same selfish irresponsibility between them.

Tyr, thanks again. I hope your post clears things up for those who find 'right wing' reverence for Libertarianism an appropriate way to regard them.

[Drummond]

There is no truth. The fact that libertarians in this country are far right negates your argument though.

NOPE. See Tyr's post. His description for them does not match the creditable aspects one could naturally expect from the Right. Your lot sound as irresponsible as ours.

[Drummond]

Your point of view matches what Rush Limbaugh says about leftists: They demand to be judged by their intentions, not the results of their failed policies. One Libertarian deed is to siphon votes from conservative Republican candidates. If they are sincere in not advancing statism, they will focus on elective offices that make Democrats spend money on otherwise uncontested races. It would be helpful if a Libertarian were to win a big city Mayor race in a place like Philly, Atlanta, SF, Boston or NYC.

For 'Right Wingers' to act in a manner that damages the cause of the Right makes no sense at all. Vote-splitting is electoral sabotage, especially if you persist in it once the effect is obvious.

As for your last sentence, it's further proof that the only logical route a Libertarian has to wielding influence (if not through force of numbers) is to use authoritative positions and direct the power attainable in a manner which governs the fate of others.

[Drummond]

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The problem is trying to define a single word/term for libertarians. A single word can not work when comparing the two entities, those in USA with those in Britain.

Those in Britain are African Elephants while those in USA are Indian elephants.
Brits libertarians are huge and wield massive disrupting and corrosive influence while those here are smaller and vastly less influential.

You are dead on in the description you relay about the Brits and the level of success(bad) they have achieved .
Question is , can that happen here ? I say no way by libertarians alone but they are not alone, they are united often with hardcore leftists/socialists, anarchists and other corrupt idiots that care not a damn whit about security, longevity and sustain prosperous culture based upon freedom and capitalism!
Instead they want results now regardless of the costs and they often even ignore the fact that some of those changes have the potential to give rise to our downfall as a nation.

I am far right yet I am in no way a libertarian because I reject the entirety of their philosophy even if I often may agree with certain specific issues they support..--Tyr

[Kathianne]

For 'Right Wingers' to act in a manner that damages the cause of the Right makes no sense at all. Vote-splitting is electoral sabotage, especially if you persist in it once the effect is obvious.

As for your last sentence, it's further proof that the only logical route a Libertarian has to wielding influence (if not through force of numbers) is to use authoritative positions and direct the power attainable in a manner which governs the fate of others.

If TF is correct and libertarians are causing gop to lose, then the gop should start considering their positions. That is not a bad thing. Most libertarians are sick of gop lip service and then acting BIG government.

[tailfins]

If TF is correct and libertarians are causing gop to lose, then the gop should start considering their positions. That is not a bad thing. Most libertarians are sick of gop lip service and then acting BIG government.

The result of that is a huge number of Evangelical Christian votes and money lost to pick up a few Libertarian votes. In the US, Libertarians ECONOMICALLY run about 80% right, 20% left. They are on the left when it comes to abortion, homosexual "rights", religious liberty, drug laws and other social issues. Libertarians are also for open borders. They call open borders "free trade".

[Kathianne]

The result of that is a huge number of Evangelical Christian votes and money lost to pick up a few Libertarian votes. In the US, Libertar8ians ECONOMICALLY run about 80% right, 20% left. They are on the left when it comes to abortion, homosexual "rights", religious liberty, drug laws and other social issues. Libertarians are also for open borders. They call open borders "free trade".

There are plenty of libertarians that do not want open borders. There are plenty who think theg government should stay out of bedrooms.

[Drummond]

If TF is correct and libertarians are causing gop to lose, then the gop should start considering their positions. That is not a bad thing.

I could agree with you in principle, Kathianne.

But, how about from a practical standpoint ? What if your GOP does NOT learn the lessons you would want it to learn, and your Libertarians continue to fracture (to whatever actual extent) their voting base ?

The result could be multiples of further wins enjoyed by the Democrats.

Do you think that America would deserve all those outcomes ? And if they happened ... how much further to the Left would America lurch ??

If the UK's any guide, then you cannot afford to see those Left-wing victories happen. Because if they do, you'll get to a 'point of no return', where social standards will have undergone an irremediable change.

As for the 'big Government' charge ... IF your Libertarians definitely shun it as an option, this marks them out as being VERY different to our own. Over here ... Libertarians will do what it takes to make their mark. Unions ... creating their own political Party ... propping up another, if it'll win them anything. WHATEVER it takes, they'll do.

[Kathianne]

I could agree with you in principle, Kathianne.

But, how about from a practical standpoint ? What if your GOP does NOT learn the lessons you would want it to learn, and your Libertarians continue to fracture (to whatever actual extent) their voting base ?

The result could be multiples of further wins enjoyed by the Democrats.

Do you think that America would deserve all those outcomes ? And if they happened ... how much further to the Left would America lurch ??

If the UK's any guide, then you cannot afford to see those Left-wing victories happen. Because if they do, you'll get to a 'point of no return', where social standards will have undergone an irremediable change.

As for the 'big Government' charge ... IF your Libertarians definitely shun it as an option, this marks them out as being VERY different to our own. Over here ... Libertarians will do what it takes to make their mark. Unions ... creating their own political Party ... propping up another, if it'll win them anything. WHATEVER it takes, they'll do.

The alternative is to allow the two parties to continue as they are. Not acceptable. Not voting is also not acceptable to me. Thus, as necessary I'll continue to vote for whichever candidate best reflects my point of view on issues.

I really do not care about their party affiliation.

When it comes to President, there really is no alternative to the two main parties at this time, the Libertarians are a joke on national scene.

Thus for this round, anyone other than (D), I'm no longer convinced of the inevitability that it will be Hillary.