Does Anyone Understand Greece and EU?

[fj1200]

You got there, I see. Finally, a realisation that there are instances where ONLY austerity measures can keep a country's finances 'viable'.

And you have got there .. because currency ADOPTION has the inbuilt problem I said it has ... that of a country relying on a currency it doesn't really control. Long-term fiscal planning is rendered a nonsense under such circumstances. As you now ADMIT that 'they (Greece) are incapable of running their own currency' ... austerity measures are ALL THAT'S LEFT. Certainly, in an economy a country cannot run (!!), no latitude exists for your form of approach.

According to you, anti-austerity 'fact' would involve a Britain where, in being tied to austerity, it was going to go in the direction of Greece !! Nothing of the kind has happened .. our economy is now stronger than those of most of the rest of Europe.

Only a Leftie would advocate running an economy where expenditure controls were RELAXED, at a time when finances were in a dire condition. Labour, Britain's LEFT, were all about that ... and another year or 2 of that behaviour would've bankrupted us. As it is, our CONSERVATIVES adopted austerity as the cure for Leftie recklessness. AND IT WORKS.

For all of your own blather and protracted diversionary squirming, FJ, you cannot escape these two basic facts:

1. Austerity measures are the successful flagship policy of our CONSERVATIVES, which YOU HAVE OPPOSED.

2. Anti-austerity measures were advocated by the GREEK HARD LEFT ... and YOU HAVE ARGUED A POSITION ALIGNED TO THEIR OWN. And, guess what ? Even Greek Lefties had to face reality and do an about-turn. An about-turn which, since you aren't constrained by real solutions to real problems, YOU won't consider.

And that, as Conservatives well know, is characteristic of Lefties. To them, the world must be as THEY decree it .. not as it IS.

Fact is, FJ, that you're a prisoner of your Left-wing thinking, as I said some time ago was the case. You'll never freely admit you're one, I understand that .. but you've betrayed the truth of yourself, you hate the fact that you have, and you're trying to squirm out of it.

In the future, there will be more such instances of your 'outing' yourself, because you can't avoid them. The truth WILL 'out'. Except that you'll deny the obvious then, as well.

Too bad. The truth is clear, and will be proved so again in the future. Not 'if' -- but 'when'. I guarantee it.

Now ... start to 'censor' that which you'd rather not acknowledge ... .

I've already exposed your ignorance about the recent economic history of your own country. If you weren't such a coward you would open up one of those threads. But please show everyone where the Greek "HARD LEFT" advocated for tax cuts, restrained spending, monetary stability, and a more relaxed regulatory environment that I have been advocating? You should do it or finally admit that you can't.

"Only austerity"? Please provide a track record of success that Greece has had in the last five years. But I can agree that Greece is incapable of running their own currency but that is a completely different issue than the failure that austerity has been. At the very least you need to acknowledge that Greek austerity is NOTHING like British "austerity." I wholeheartedly agreed with Osborne's "austerity" that embraced tax cuts as the necessary ingredient of supply side economics. Would you like to now argue that Supply-Side is NOT conservative?

Now lastly, you can finally provide proof of my betrayal of small government conservatism or you can finally drop this leftie business you infect the board with. I'm kind of done with it.

[fj1200]

Also - we have FJ siding completely with the direction the Greek LEFTIES wanted to take...

Do you choose being a lying sack or willfully ignorant?

... please show everyone where the Greek "HARD LEFT" advocated for tax cuts, restrained spending, monetary stability, and a more relaxed regulatory environment that I have been advocating? You should do it or finally admit that you can't.

[Max R.]

Not really so odd when you consider that there are few bright spots in the whole of the Caribbean. But a little of the why about PR:

....Persistently weak economic performance has eroded the tax base and the government and other agencies piled on debt from eager lenders to maintain public spending.
Puerto Rico has more than three times the debt per resident as the most heavily indebted U.S. states......

That public spending will getcha every time!

[Drummond]

I've already exposed your ignorance about the recent economic history of your own country. If you weren't such a coward you would open up one of those threads. But please show everyone where the Greek "HARD LEFT" advocated for tax cuts, restrained spending, monetary stability, and a more relaxed regulatory environment that I have been advocating? You should do it or finally admit that you can't.

"Only austerity"? Please provide a track record of success that Greece has had in the last five years. But I can agree that Greece is incapable of running their own currency but that is a completely different issue than the failure that austerity has been. At the very least you need to acknowledge that Greek austerity is NOTHING like British "austerity." I wholeheartedly agreed with Osborne's "austerity" that embraced tax cuts as the necessary ingredient of supply side economics. Would you like to now argue that Supply-Side is NOT conservative?

Now lastly, you can finally provide proof of my betrayal of small government conservatism or you can finally drop this leftie business you infect the board with. I'm kind of done with it.

I missed this until just now. So, the post edits are back with a vengeance, eh ?

Are you finding it difficult to cope without your pathetic censoring-attempts ?

No, let's stick with your willingness to indulge in misrepresentation, shall we ?

What the Greek Hard Left Party did was to fight for power on an ANTI-Austerity platform. This ringing any bells for you, FJ ?

Anti-austerity, FJ, in case I need to remind you ahead of an imminent history rewrite of yours, is something you've been championing. True to your political leanings, you launched a sustained attack on the British Conservatives because of their own austerity package. In the process, you treated me to repeats of your much-preferred Obama-esque mantra invention of the moment: your version of one was ... 'Austerity Sucks'.

The austerity package that the UK Conservatives, along with the LibDems in Coalition, was, is, and has remained, the Conservative Party's cornerstone manifesto pledge for both the 2010 and 2015 elections, and they've stuck to it. Result ... sustained improvement in our economy, from RESPONSIBLE fiscal management.

... Now. You represent yourself as a so-called version of a Conservative ... but you do so on the back of a history of ATTACKING Conservatives, on a VERY regular basis. The British Conservative Party (without knowing or caring, of course .. so 'sorry' about that ..) has, ahem, 'taken' attack after attack from you, for failing to ditch their austerity package, THIS IN FULL ACCORD WITH WHAT OUR UK LEFTIES HAVE ADVOCATED.

But not even content with that ... you've taken a position that mirrored the one that the hardline Greek LEFT said they were championing. They wanted to ditch austerity. They even asked for a Referendum vote mandating them to continue with that policy. Except that ... so wedded have you been to following this LEFTIE fiscal strategy, that, even when the Greek Lefties were forced to abandon it (that little pesky thing called REALITY got in the way .. how very Naughty of it, eh ??) .. YOU remained LOYAL to it.

But, of course you did.

How could you do otherwise .. unlike the Greek Lefties, you weren't forced out of it by a dose of the real world. You, instead, could do what Lefties love doing, and divorce reality from dogmatic preference. So, you Leftily stuck with dogmatism.

And you're still doing it, but, ludicrously, you're claiming to be CONSERVATIVE, when wearing your LEFTIE hat !!!!!

You know, it may be that I've never known anyone more dedicated to self-misrepresentation than you are, FJ.

You betray small Government Conservatism by missing one of the points of it .. namely, that you apply it when you CAN, and when practicalities allow for it. Your big - actually, enormous - problem is that, being a Leftie at heart, you cannot think in terms of escaping blind adherence to dogmatism. So, you represent very basic CONSERVATIVE thinking, BUT in a classically limited and typically LEFTIE, way. That's to say, by being purposely unhinged from reality.

Margaret Thatcher never, ever, made that mistake.

It's truly sad, because I know that, not only can you not escape from this fundamental error, you even convince yourself that it isn't one.

But then, this itself is typically Leftie.

IDIOT.

[fj1200]

... you've taken a position ...

I asked you to prove it.

But please show everyone where the Greek "HARD LEFT" advocated for tax cuts, restrained spending, monetary stability, and a more relaxed regulatory environment that I have been advocating? You should do it or finally admit that you can't.

"Only austerity"? Please provide a track record of success that Greece has had in the last five years. ... Would you like to now argue that Supply-Side is NOT conservative?

Here's another valid point you're running away from.

Also, let us know exactly when conservative ideas are best and when your big government solutions are best. We're all dying to know.

[Drummond]

I've already exposed your ignorance about the recent economic history of your own country.

The recent economic history of my country shows that austerity measures are helping us, that our economy is growing stronger. Inflation is at record lows, and has been for a long time.

Compare that with the prediction you once made, that we were doomed to suffer the same fate that Greece is now experiencing !

But please show everyone where the Greek "HARD LEFT" advocated for tax cuts, restrained spending, monetary stability, and a more relaxed regulatory environment that I have been advocating?

Disingenuous. Lefties prefer tax RISES. By comparison, Conservatives will only apply them if they must. Not by choice, but if they MUST.

Lefties also love to go in for massive spending. That's partly why they want tax hikes ! Our British Conservatives see it as necessary to do the opposite. Such forms a vital part of - get this - AUSTERITY MEASURES.

But you are firmly against such measures. As, indeed, were the Greek hard Left.

You say that you are for low taxation. So, traditionally - note that word ! - are the Right. But, the Right will adapt to realities, so if need be, they'll raise taxes. What they won't do is spend recklessly.

The Left, however, will. And in doing so, they defy an important cornerstone of austerity packages.

You should be delighted, as after all, you say 'austerity sucks'.

"Only austerity"? Please provide a track record of success that Greece has had in the last five years.

Before the Greek Lefties came along, they were already tied into an austerity programme. The Greek Hard Left, LIKE YOU, wanted the ABANDONMENT of them, and this in the face of their absolute necessity ! So you, in typical Leftie fashion, clung on to a preference far removed from Greece's reality.

But I can agree that Greece is incapable of running their own currency but that is a completely different issue than the failure that austerity has been.

The two are linked. If, as you say, Greece cannot run its own currency, they're reliant on another one. In this case, the Euro, and they're tied into it. This means being subject to rules and conditions which best serve that. And, yes, these concern AUSTERITY measures, as Europe itself agrees is true. And required.

At the very least you need to acknowledge that Greek austerity is NOTHING like British "austerity."

Yes. That's because WE ACTED IN TIME, and from a lesser history of mismanagement.

If you'd had your way, we'd not have acted at all. Which is what our own LEFT wanted.

I wholeheartedly agreed with Osborne's "austerity" that embraced tax cuts as the necessary ingredient of supply side economics. Would you like to now argue that Supply-Side is NOT conservative?

I'd like to argue what I have been arguing, thanks. If an economy is weak beyond a certain point, it needs to be on 'life-support', rather than being reliant on its own, more normal, operations. Austerity packages do that. They cut back on expenditures. Cuts are made where they can be. If revenue is lacking .. and in a weak economy, it WILL be .. then you inject what revenue you can AFFORD into it to keep it going. Tax rises are a relatively short-term (as short term as is reasonable), but necessary, answer.

What you're 'agreeing' with is the tax cuts only introduced once they could be AFFORDED. Until they could be, they DID NOT EXIST.

Now lastly, you can finally provide proof of my betrayal of small government conservatism or you can finally drop this leftie business you infect the board with. I'm kind of done with it.

You inject 'leftie business' into this board by BEING one. If you want to stop being one, and start showing some loyalty towards commonsense politics, I for one would be delighted. By all means, start !!

Fact is, you're a fraud.

You're 'The One True Thatcherite'. So you SAY (denigrating all other Thatcherites out there, something no loyal Thatcherite would do !). Yet, Margaret Thatcher was pro-BIG Government solutions when she saw a need for them. So, Mr 'Thatcherite', WHY AREN'T YOU ?

I say again, you're A FRAUD. Either by 'being' a 'Thatcherite' and betraying HER, or, by being so 'small Government' as to try and apply it in those situations where it's unworkable, presumably to discredit it ?

A Left-winger clings to principles and stances irrespective of whether or not they're workable, believing that propaganda will see them through, come-what-may. A Conservative lives in the real world, doing his or her best according to practical need. What do you do ? You cling on to a mantra when it CANNOT work, you insult Conservatives on a VERY regular basis, and yes, you couldn't put a cigarette paper between what you said you believed in, and what Greek Lefties said THEY believed in !

Between all that, and your disloyalty towards Thatcherism, why should I - or, anyone - have the smallest faith in YOUR version of your so-called 'bona fides' ?

Come on .. ANSWER THAT.

But of course, you cannot.

-- Feel some editing-for-oneupmanship coming on, FJ .. ?

[Drummond]

Also, let us know exactly when conservative ideas are best and when your big government solutions are best. We're all dying to know.

This comes to the heart of where you most act like a Leftie, FJ. When you run away from reality.

Here's the reality. There are times when THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME.

If you were a true 'Thatcherite', you'd know that already. You'd know her history, and you'd know what she, as a Conservative leader, was successful in making work for her. And as a Thatcherite, you'd be supportive.

But, you're not.

That's because what you claim for yourself is fraudulent.

She massively curbed Trade Union Left-wing militancy through a succession of Big Government legislation initiatives.

She introduced 'Clause 28' legislation, which forbade the promotion of homosexuality.

She introduced the Community Charge, a tax dubbed (incorrectly, to a point, anyway) a 'Poll Tax'.

She forbade IRA Spokespersons from airing their views on British media.

She introduced the 'right to buy' scheme for COUNCIL HOUSE properties.

Are any of these not Big Government answers to issues she felt she had to address, FJ ? And tell me .. how much of that could've been dealt with, instead, by any 'Small Government' methodology ??

Yet ... ALL of it, is CONSERVATIVE in nature !!

Now tell me, Mr, ahem, 'Thatcherite'. How much of this CONSERVATIVE initiative-creation, do you want to OPPOSE ?

[fj1200]

That wasn't an answer to the question.

Also, let us know exactly when conservative ideas are best and when your big government solutions are best. We're all dying to know.

Big government is not small government.

[fj1200]

A FRAUD.

You are a fraud. You laid specific charges about me and what I've advocated for. It's now time for you to put up or shut up and show me where I made particular statements.

[Drummond]

You are a fraud. You laid specific charges about me and what I've advocated for. It's now time for you to put up or shut up and show me where I made particular statements.

This is as ridiculous as it gets. You make one every single time you post !!!!

'THE ONE TRUE THATCHERITE'. Ringing any bells, FJ ? Or is your attention-deficit problem kicking in once more ?

As 'The One True Thatcherite', you're saying that nobody ELSE is. Which means you're attacking every other of her supporters who exists, anywhere !!

Now, why would any 'Thatcherite' launch such an attack on every one of her supporters, IF he's a Thatcherite HIMSELF ?? This makes absolutely NO logical sense WHATSOEVER.

You're not only a fraud, FJ, but an especially obvious one.

Want more ?

OK .. do you deny ever advocating Small Government as a core principle of yours ? Haven't you launched attacks on the basis of someone failing to be consistently for Small Government ?

Was MRS THATCHER forever loyal to Small Government, or were there occasions when she chose Big Government methodology to fix problems ?

You've a choice. Be Pro-Thatcherite (and, therefore, STOP your attacks on other supporters of hers, e.g myself !! ..) .. or, be ANTI-Thatcherite, in order to be consistently 'Small Government'. YOU CANNOT BE BOTH. If you try (as you have up until now), then you take A FRAUDULENT POSITION !!!!

[fj1200]

This is as ridiculous as it gets.

Again, your ridiculous avoidance is not an answer. Show where the Greek Left has advocated Supply-Side economics.

[Drummond]

Again, your ridiculous avoidance is not an answer. Show where the Greek Left has advocated Supply-Side economics.

... says he, ridiculously avoiding .. !!

I'm fascinated by the way you'll NEVER be honest enough to admit what's staring you, me, &/or anyone, in the face. It's a strange phenomenon !

[fj1200]

... says he, ridiculously avoiding .. !!

I'm fascinated by the way you'll NEVER be honest enough to admit what's staring you, me, &/or anyone, in the face. It's a strange phenomenon !

This thread is about Greece and you lying about where I stand. Time to prove it with actual quotes.

[Kathianne]

It was about Greece, trying again:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0QP1Q820150820

World| Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:13pm EDTRelated: WORLD, GREECE
Tsipras resigns, paving way for snap Greek election

ATHENS| BY RENEE MALTEZOU AND MICHELE KAMBAS


Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras resigned on Thursday, hoping to strengthen his hold on power in snap elections after seven months in office in which he fought Greece's creditors for a better bailout deal but had to cave in.


Tsipras submitted his resignation to President Prokopis Pavlopoulos and asked for the earliest possible election date.


Government officials said the aim was to hold the election on Sept. 20, with Tsipras seeking to quell a rebellion in his leftist Syriza party and seal public support for the bailout program, Greece's third since 2010, that he negotiated.


"I will go the president of the republic shortly to submit my resignation, as well as the resignation of my government," Tsipras said in a televised address shortly before he met Pavlopoulos.


Faced with a near collapse of the Greek financial system which threatened the country's future in the euro, Tsipras was forced to accept the creditors' demands for yet more austerity and economic reform - the very policies he had promised to scrap when he was elected in January.

...

[Drummond]

It was about Greece, trying again:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0QP1Q820150820

Tsipras's 'logic' escapes me.

It was THIS particular Leftie who fought, in total defiance of reality, to have a Referendum give him a mandate which said he should take an anti-austerity line with the EU. He then reneged on it at breakneck speed, within ONE WEEK of getting that mandate, returning to Greece to push FOR more, and 'worse', austerity terms than those he'd pledged to fight against !!

With all this well known to the Greek people, why should they trust a Leftie so singularly expert at breaking electoral promises, and so very speedily ?? Yet, Tsipras - presumably - thinks he still has credibility ?

Now, right there, is one extremely delusional Leftie !!! You've got to hand it to 'em .. who's better at self-delusion than Lefties ??