Consensual Sex

[indago]

If, as a woman, I believe males should be held accountable for their sexual choices, then women need to be held to the same standard. I think the judge missed the mark big time. A child of 11 can't make informed choices about their sexuality.

...but ...but... he got a "notch"...

[WiccanLiberal]

...but ...but... he got a "notch"...

Perhaps I am projecting unfairly but it sometimes seems as if mature males commenting on and considering these stories are harking back to their own adolescence and the sexual interest they had in some lovely older woman - a teacher, etc. These tropes are fodder for fantasy, risque jokes and numerous film and TV shows. Teenagers need to explore their sexuality but appropriate partners should be closer to their own age. A kid this young can't be expected to make an appropriate choice when confronted with such an immediate and physical challenge to his libido

[Gunny]

Perhaps I am projecting unfairly but it sometimes seems as if mature males commenting on and considering these stories are harking back to their own adolescence and the sexual interest they had in some lovely older woman - a teacher, etc. These tropes are fodder for fantasy, risque jokes and numerous film and TV shows. Teenagers need to explore their sexuality but appropriate partners should be closer to their own age. A kid this young can't be expected to make an appropriate choice when confronted with such an immediate and physical challenge to his libido

I sort of agree. At 11, for guys, you have no clue what's even going on. Then you have to take our current society into account. An 11 years old can commit murder and be tried as an adult. There's a definite double standard.

As I said, when I was 11 I had no idea what sex was. I played with toys and built model airplanes and fight to us was one on one, fists on the playground. The world's different now. You got 8 years olds running drugs and carrying weapons.

Not saying I got an answer either. I'm a jarhead. I loathe predators. MY answer ain't going to change society. I'm the reckoning, not the change.

[indago]

Perhaps I am projecting unfairly but it sometimes seems as if mature males commenting on and considering these stories are harking back to their own adolescence and the sexual interest they had in some lovely older woman - a teacher, etc. These tropes are fodder for fantasy, risque jokes and numerous film and TV shows. Teenagers need to explore their sexuality but appropriate partners should be closer to their own age. A kid this young can't be expected to make an appropriate choice when confronted with such an immediate and physical challenge to his libido

Well, it's a start...

You have to start somewhere...

[Motown]

Perhaps I am projecting unfairly but it sometimes seems as if mature males commenting on and considering these stories are harking back to their own adolescence and the sexual interest they had in some lovely older woman - a teacher, etc. These tropes are fodder for fantasy, risque jokes and numerous film and TV shows. Teenagers need to explore their sexuality but appropriate partners should be closer to their own age. A kid this young can't be expected to make an appropriate choice when confronted with such an immediate and physical challenge to his libido

11 years old sounds extreme at first which is why this is a story but once you think about it a little bit more how odd is it really? Some guys mature late. I went to high school with a few guys who didn't hit puberty until after they graduated. Some guys mature early, very early, like this 11 year old who had already hit puberty. I'm not saying sex with older women is the norm, I don't believe it is, but it's more common than you might want to believe.

Granted 11 does seem young but you think it's too young to make the right decision? Have you already decided that 'No' is the right decision because if that's what you believe then you're holding the 11 year old to an impossibly high standard, I've never known any male under the age of 22 to turn down sex when offered by a woman he's attracted to.

Similar ages are fine for relationships, I agree with you there, but I'm not talking about a relationship. Discount the older woman thing as a fantasy if you want to but it does happen, even with teachers. Boys sexually mature in their teens, some younger than that. Women sexually mature in their 30's and the suburbs are full of horny women in their 30's and all it takes for some young guys to get laid is for one or two of those women to be slutty enough and it happens more than some people want to believe.

[fj1200]

Granted 11 does seem young but you think it's too young to make the right decision?

11 is to young to make that decision. All should be held equally under the law.

[Motown]

11 is to young to make that decision. All should be held equally under the law.

We've had this disagreement before, you think the law is the be all end all because it's the law. I like the law to make sense. The he's only 11 year old argument doesn't fly with me because if he had banged another 11 year old there wouldn't have been any legal action at all.

[fj1200]

We've had this disagreement before, you think the law is the be all end all because it's the law. I like the law to make sense. The he's only 11 year old argument doesn't fly with me because if he had banged another 11 year old there wouldn't have been any legal action at all.

We have? OK. In this case because the law is the law and it's been considered for decades and in many different states, countries, etc. There are even exceptions in the law when ages are closer (Romeo and Juliet); these additions to the law speak to the considered nature of the laws and the rationale. I think even you will agree that if the sexes were reversed the 20-year old would be looking at a long stretch; there is no reason that the sexes should really make the difference here. But this is not just about primal urges it's about the responsibility of an adult and the power that they hold in the relationship. There are reasons that even colleges have rules against teachers and students. In this case especially the law makes sense and your example of two 11-year olds creates a completely different dynamic.

[Gunny]

We have? OK. In this case because the law is the law and it's been considered for decades and in many different states, countries, etc. There are even exceptions in the law when ages are closer (Romeo and Juliet); these additions to the law speak to the considered nature of the laws and the rationale. I think even you will agree that if the sexes were reversed the 20-year old would be looking at a long stretch; there is no reason that the sexes should really make the difference here. But this is not just about primal urges it's about the responsibility of an adult and the power that they hold in the relationship. There are reasons that even colleges have rules against teachers and students. In this case especially the law makes sense and your example of two 11-year olds creates a completely different dynamic.

Give it a rest. You're talking literally and he's talking actual application. Got a perfect example for you:

Hillary Clinton. If you were a Lance Corporal and did the crap she's done, that whole "I didn't do anything" excuse would get you a one-way trip to the brig awaiting your court martial. Yet she's free to posture.

The double standard is there for all to see.

[Motown]

We have? OK. In this case because the law is the law and it's been considered for decades and in many different states, countries, etc.

This isn't what you said when we were talking about gay marriage.

There are even exceptions in the law when ages are closer (Romeo and Juliet); these additions to the law speak to the considered nature of the laws and the rationale.

I know in Michigan we have a new Romeo and Juliet law and it was the result of the public growing tired of the way the laws you're defending were applied. People like me were the driving force behind that law being adopted, not any careful consideration by a legislative body. Here's a link to an article about it:

http://www.michigancriminaldefensela...in-michig.html

Notice that the new law sets a new secondary and conditional age of consent: 13 years old. To me there's not much of a difference between 11 and 13, could be as little as 367 days. Once we're talking about 13 year olds I think it's time to admit that my view on this may not be as outlandish as some people think because it's an admission by our legislature that a 13 year old can consent and would want to, albeit with restrictions.

I think even you will agree that if the sexes were reversed the 20-year old would be looking at a long stretch; there is no reason that the sexes should really make the difference here.

Of course, I've already said I think there's a double standard, guys get hammered a lot harder than women do by these laws. Once again though I have a problem with drawing arbitrary lines. Something in the OP that hasn't been discussed is the mental maturity of the 20 year old woman, the judge mentioned that. Don't you think age of consent laws assume the older person to be at least of functional mental capacity? If she's not mentally 20 years old can she be treated as a 20 year old in any matter where age matters?

But this is not just about primal urges it's about the responsibility of an adult and the power that they hold in the relationship. There are reasons that even colleges have rules against teachers and students.

Of course it's problematic for a student to date a professor who is teaching a class the student is taking but I'm not aware of any wide spread rules prohibiting faculty from dating students and most college students are 18 or older anyway so the issue here isn't age of consent, it's one party holding authority over another which is a problem no matter how old you are. Instead of setting an age maybe authority and coersion should be the standards to look to when deciding whether or not to prosecute these cases?

In this case especially the law makes sense and your example of two 11-year olds creates a completely different dynamic.

Just pointing out the law isn't exactly fair and even. Someone can either consent or they can't consent, but these cases rest upon the age of the other participant, not the younger one.

[WiccanLiberal]

11 years old sounds extreme at first which is why this is a story but once you think about it a little bit more how odd is it really? Some guys mature late. I went to high school with a few guys who didn't hit puberty until after they graduated. Some guys mature early, very early, like this 11 year old who had already hit puberty. I'm not saying sex with older women is the norm, I don't believe it is, but it's more common than you might want to believe.

Granted 11 does seem young but you think it's too young to make the right decision? Have you already decided that 'No' is the right decision because if that's what you believe then you're holding the 11 year old to an impossibly high standard, I've never known any male under the age of 22 to turn down sex when offered by a woman he's attracted to.

Similar ages are fine for relationships, I agree with you there, but I'm not talking about a relationship. Discount the older woman thing as a fantasy if you want to but it does happen, even with teachers. Boys sexually mature in their teens, some younger than that. Women sexually mature in their 30's and the suburbs are full of horny women in their 30's and all it takes for some young guys to get laid is for one or two of those women to be slutty enough and it happens more than some people want to believe.

Granted kids physically mature at different ages. But just because the plumbing works is no indication that the choices made about when to use it are good ones. Experts in neurophysiology now suspect that the brain, specifically the connections to the frontal cortex which controls judgement, are not complete until the mid 20's.( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=124119468 ) Imagine if a young man is presented with the opportunity to have a romantic encounter with an older female friend of the family. He follows the rather questionable genius of his gonads and has a great time. But he also contracts herpes. Or maybe he becomes an HPV carrier, putting every one of his future female partners at risk for cervical cancer. Because the harsh truth is when you have sex with a new partner, you are also in contact with every partner that person has ever had. Seen in that light, these situations take on a more serious tone. As a mature adult, and in a sober condition, we can generally make decent choices about who we take to bed. Kids can't. That's the truth. And that means the law must protect them with limiting the age at which they can be expected to consent to activity of this kind, especially with an older partner.

[Abbey Marie]

Granted kids physically mature at different ages. But just because the plumbing works is no indication that the choices made about when to use it are good ones. Experts in neurophysiology now suspect that the brain, specifically the connections to the frontal cortex which controls judgement, are not complete until the mid 20's.( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=124119468 ) Imagine if a young man is presented with the opportunity to have a romantic encounter with an older female friend of the family. He follows the rather questionable genius of his gonads and has a great time. But he also contracts herpes. Or maybe he becomes an HPV carrier, putting every one of his future female partners at risk for cervical cancer. Because the harsh truth is when you have sex with a new partner, you are also in contact with every partner that person has ever had. Seen in that light, these situations take on a more serious tone. As a mature adult, and in a sober condition, we can generally make decent choices about who we take to bed. Kids can't. That's the truth. And that means the law must protect them with limiting the age at which they can be expected to consent to activity of this kind, especially with an older partner.

Heck, even adults often suck at picking their partners. What hope does a kid have?

[Motown]

I can't help but notice it's the women who seem to be interested in picking partners wisely.

[Gunny]

I can't help but notice it's the women who seem to be interested in picking partners wisely.

Uh huh. Got a couple of daughters to introduce you to if you think THAT.