It Doesn't Have To Be Blackmail-But Why The Idolizing?

[Kathianne]

The current set-up with China going back decades HAS --ALL-- BEEN IN THEIR FAVOR TO THE TUNE OF A FEW TRILLIONS DOLLARS, IMHO.
At some point a line has to be drawn and reversal actions taken against their actions such as currency manipulations, past lopsided trade agreements, their military actions- South China seas etc..
In my opinion the can getting kicked on down the road (as it has been for decades) was designed to eventually allow China to eclipse us.
The dem party screaming against Russia is because they are owned by China and faithfully bribed by China, certainly the past actions of the Clintons and the Obamas, prove that, IMHO.
As my grandfather oft said- "Better late than never", because- "Never can get you killed"....
If Russia is the hungry bear,then China is the poisonous serpent, why are we inviting the serpent into our bed to within striking distance?
Short answer is , the treasonous dem party, mainstream media, insane liberals, IMHO. -TYR

True story:

There once was a kingdom that had power near and far. Some of its people went far, far away, but love their kingdom back home. For a long time, everyone was happy. The king was fine with what the people sent back to be made into goods and sold back to them. The people far away were happy, the king had people to help protect them as they built their villages and towns. They had their meetings and pretty much ran things themselves, the king didn't mind, they were far away.

Over time, the people that live in the new land, caused some problems. They joined with another kingdom, trying to get rid of the happy people from the far away kingdom. The king sent many boats and people to fight the other kingdom and the others who were helping them. It was very expensive, but the king and his people won!

Unfortunately, the king had other wars to fight, including closer to home. Money was tight and he and his government realized that the happy people far away should help with these costs. In fact, they realized that for a long time, they'd been getting a lot of help, but not paying their share of the costs.

So, they passed some taxes. It eventually led to the new land people breaking away from the kingdom. Why? Benign neglect for the most part.

When a country doesn't enforce their laws or allows unfair practices to abound-they need to address those in a manner that is understandable. Yes, it may still 'hurt' but the case must be made.

Instead of just saying, "F'ing A, today it changes!!!" You may well be leading to the revolutionary like backlash. Be it in trade or borders.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

True story:

There once was a kingdom that had power near and far. Some of its people went far, far away, but love their kingdom back home. For a long time, everyone was happy. The king was fine with what the people sent back to be made into goods and sold back to them. The people far away were happy, the king had people to help protect them as they built their villages and towns. They had their meetings and pretty much ran things themselves, the king didn't mind, they were far away.

Over time, the people that live in the new land, caused some problems. They joined with another kingdom, trying to get rid of the happy people from the far away kingdom. The king sent many boats and people to fight the other kingdom and the others who were helping them. It was very expensive, but the king and his people won!

Unfortunately, the king had other wars to fight, including closer to home. Money was tight and he and his government realized that the happy people far away should help with these costs. In fact, they realized that for a long time, they'd been getting a lot of help, but not paying their share of the costs.

So, they passed some taxes. It eventually led to the new land people breaking away from the kingdom. Why? Benign neglect for the most part.

When a country doesn't enforce their laws or allows unfair practices to abound-they need to address those in a manner that is understandable. Yes, it may still 'hurt' but the case must be made.

Instead of just saying, "F'ing A, today it changes!!!" You may well be leading to the revolutionary like backlash. Be it in trade or borders.

My friend, I am well aware of the story of the American revolution, its history and what Britain did.
Your point is not lost on me just as I do not ignore points you make.
However, Trump did not say, - "F'ing A, today it changes!!!". He did draw a line in the sand and did the right thing to start reversing that which other president feared to engage, IMHO.
An added observation, thought and question my friend - If not now and with Trump- when would the reversal ever start?
Its already been over 40 years on and getting worse each decade..
China and Russia both represent threats to this nation but only one of them has bought out one of our two political parties..
The one that bought the dem party, is by far the greater future threat--simply because it is seen as an ally when it is in actuality a serpent, just waiting for the perfect time to strike. IMHO.-Tyr

[Gunny]

My friend, I am well aware of the story of the American revolution, its history and what Britain did.
Your point is not lost on me just as I do not ignore points you make.
However, Trump did not say, - "F'ing A, today it changes!!!". He did draw a line in the sand and did the right thing to start reversing that which other president feared to engage, IMHO.
An added observation, thought and question my friend - If not now and with Trump- when would the reversal ever start?
Its already been over 40 years on and getting worse each decade..
China and Russia both represent threats to this nation but only one of them has bought out one of our two political parties..
The one that bought the dem party, is by far the greater future threat--simply because it is seen as an ally when it is in actuality a serpent, just waiting for the perfect time to strike. IMHO.-Tyr

He said exactly that to the rest of the world with his steel tariff.

However they got the deals they got, the other countries are not going to just stand idly by and take a slam in the pocket on a declaration by one. They're going to fight back, as they are. We are fortunate only in that they are too weak an inept to actually band together and cripple us because they could. I do believe they will try if pushed far enough.

We domestically don't buy enough farm products to make up the difference in supporting our farming industry. Not to mention it makes no sense to cripple a viable industry to artificially support a non-viable one. I'm all for fair trade and would have less problem if an industry/area of trade that is currently viable but being treated unfairly be addressed.

Just as important, the impact to the farming industry has the potential to lose Trump, and even more importantly the GOP down the road, support. They're already telling the farmers here they're going to have to suck it up but it'll be okay in the long run. No one wants to hear "long run". That's as dirty a word to Americans as any.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He said exactly that to the rest of the world with his steel tariff.

However they got the deals they got, the other countries are not going to just stand idly by and take a slam in the pocket on a declaration by one. They're going to fight back, as they are. We are fortunate only in that they are too weak an inept to actually band together and cripple us because they could. I do believe they will try if pushed far enough.

We domestically don't buy enough farm products to make up the difference in supporting our farming industry. Not to mention it makes no sense to cripple a viable industry to artificially support a non-viable one. I'm all for fair trade and would have less problem if an industry/area of trade that is currently viable but being treated unfairly be addressed.

Just as important, the impact to the farming industry has the potential to lose Trump, and even more importantly the GOP down the road, support. They're already telling the farmers here they're going to have to suck it up but it'll be okay in the long run. No one wants to hear "long run". That's as dirty a word to Americans as any.

All valid considerations my friend. Certainly there was without doubt going to be push-back--which was/is no way to be avoided.
Could Trump have acted less aggressively and in a more moderate manner? Yes!
Would that have been far better to do? Maybe..
Point is trump took the first step, so would it have been better to slap on the hand or better to knock teeth out and be done with it?
Myself, I've always believed the knock the teeth out first but then again people have often called me a damn brute and stubborn ole mule..
Nobody has ever called me-- diplomatic...
You yourself are a fighter and know at times savage brute force cuts short what would have been a much longer and far more far damaging battle. SEEMS TO ME THAT TRUMP CHOSE THAT PATH AND WE GET TO SEE IF HIS CHOICE HE MADE WAS BEST, WAS THE BETTER OF THE OPTIONS.
TRUMP IS NOT PERFECT-NO MAN IS AND I DEARLY HATE HIS TWEETS MYSELF.

By the way- on another subject- I bought this book that was published 1997, titled - The Warrior Generals, Combat Leadership in the Civil War.-author- Thomas B. Buell .
I know you and I both share this deep interest in the Civil War and this book is one of the best I have ever read in giving deeper insight into mistakes made, PERSONALITIES OF THE TOP GENERALS- BOTH SIDES, ETC.
You would love it. Paperback copy , so price on the net is cheap. Check it out my friend.- TYR

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Oh you're going to notice the tariffs sooner than later in your pocketbook. There may well be even more consequences down the road, with allies and with enemies. It won't just be China, but the problems sown there, will not be a great harvest.

Well, I just flat out disagree with that. America has already been getting screwed to the tunes of billions in tariffs on OUR goods, and a massive trade imbalance. America has ALREADY been suffering, and if I have to pay a little more for a spatula made in China, so be it. At least China is going to ALSO start feeling some pain they HAVEN'T had to feel, yet.

And I don't think there's a nation on earth more GREEDY than China with major aspirations, so as soon as they start feeling the money pinch there, you can't tell me that they're NOT going to want to PLAY BALL. They want their profits, they want their expansion, they want to keep making as much money as possible, and if we make that impossible with tariffs on their goods, because they have high tariffs on our goods, and they know that the only way to make MORE money is to level the playing the field or SUFFER, ya, I'm not buying the notion that they'll just continue attempting to screw America, especially since we've filed a grievance against them for unfair trade practices. I can't for the life of me figure out why you people think this trade and tariff is only a one way street where America gets screwed but no one else does.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

All valid considerations my friend. Certainly there was without doubt going to be push-back--which was/is no way to be avoided.
Could Trump have acted less aggressively and in a more moderate manner? Yes!
Would that have been far better to do? Maybe..
Point is trump took the first step, so would it have been better to slap on the hand or better to knock teeth out and be done with it?
Myself, I've always believed the knock the teeth out first but then again people have often called me a damn brute and stubborn ole mule..
Nobody has ever called me-- diplomatic...
You yourself are a fighter and know at times savage brute force cuts short what would have been a much longer and far more far damaging battle. SEEMS TO ME THAT TRUMP CHOSE THAT PATH AND WE GET TO SEE IF HIS CHOICE HE MADE WAS BEST, WAS THE BETTER OF THE OPTIONS.
TRUMP IS NOT PERFECT-NO MAN IS AND I DEARLY HATE HIS TWEETS MYSELF.

By the way- on another subject- I bought this book that was published 1997, titled - The Warrior Generals, Combat Leadership in the Civil War.-author- Thomas B. Buell .
I know you and I both share this deep interest in the Civil War and this book is one of the best I have ever read in giving deeper insight into mistakes made, PERSONALITIES OF THE TOP GENERALS- BOTH SIDES, ETC.
You would love it. Paperback copy , so price on the net is cheap. Check it out my friend.- TYR

Exactly. Like when people sell something, the smart ones ALWAYS ask MORE for their item than they'll take. You start out high to give yourself room to negotiate. Trump has started out dealing with tariffs and trade imbalances like a gang buster so that it gives him room to negotiate. I see that as a position of strength. It's exactly the way I'd have handled it.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

... the other countries are not going to just stand idly by and take a slam in the pocket on a declaration by one.

Every time you say that I have to wonder, is the fact that WE are ALREADY getting screwed by these countries something you just don't want to admit, or don't you CARE that we're already getting screwed?

If these other countries "fight back," that is only going to be ON TOP of the screwing they're ALREADY giving us. Is that of no concern to you?

[Gunny]

Every time you say that I have to wonder, is the fact that WE are ALREADY getting screwed by these countries something you just don't want to admit, or don't you CARE that we're already getting screwed?

If these other countries "fight back," that is only going to be ON TOP of the screwing they're ALREADY giving us. Is that of no concern to you?

Nope. What I am not doing is focusing solely on one aspect and ignoring the rest, to include the consequences of any actions taken. "Already getting screwed" is a matter of opinion since I don't recall at any point in time another country twisting the US's arm and forcing it into a deal. We signed on for the shit, and we elected the people that did the signing. The DOES change the issue and the approach to solving it. Indian giver's were frown upon as far back as I can remember. You make a deal, you honor it. You want to change it? You negotiate a change. You negotiated a deal to begin with, right?

What if I tell the mortgage company I don't like their deal and I'm changing it? How does THAT end? What if I'm 13 states that no longer want to be part of the US and have every right to leave as freely as I joined and do so? How did THAT end?

In any other facet of life, what Trump is doing would be illegal. It isn't different just because it's Trump and it's the US.

Also, YOU keep ignoring the fact that the only difference getting screwed is WHO is taking it up the bobo. Sleight of hand doesn't work on me. Saying you're "saving this" while "that" is paying for it is changing one damned thing in the real picture. It's just a realignment of funds.

[Black Diamond]

I don't know what Pete has to do with it, but simple math is simple math. We jack the tariff on steel and the rest of the World jacks its tariff's/boycotts our farm belt, WE are the losers. We artificially prop up one industry that can't fairly compete at the expense of an industry that can. And whatever you, Pete and the electorate have to do with it, almost ALL those farm belt states are red. For now.

ANd you're branching out. US steel isn't the sole nor even main cause of the auto industry going to shit. Inferior products at inflated prices, not to mention the aforementioned union overhead, killed the US-made auto market. It couldn't compete on the world market. US Steel was only part of the problem.

I don't feel any sympathy for companies that price themselves out of business. I'd say the major problem with ANY industry and trade is spoiled, American-arrogant fat cats who thought we were the be-all end-all post-WWII with ZERO thought given to the future and staying on the cutting edge of their industries. Now WE (the consumers) and the rest of the World are supposed to pay for it? There's NOTHING fair about that.

As an aside ... do you put your money where your mouth is? I've seen the questioned patriotism, and the "if you were a real American comments" (not naming names .. but where do YOU fall?

I'm anal as Hell and have boycotted foreign goods wherever possible/practical for years and years and YEARS. My truck's a GMC. My jeans are made at the Levi Strauss & Co factory right up the road on Acme Rd. My other jeans are Dickies, American made. My running shoes are New Balance and Brooks -- American made. My china isn't even from China. It was made in a pottery in Virginia we got when I was stationed there. My weight bar is made by Rogue Fitness USA in Ohio from US steel. It's better quality, but I paid the price of an entire weight set just for the Made in USA bar. I shop at the local grocery store rather than Wal Mart for both quality, and to support the local business. US owned.

I pick and choose my shit and every single thing IS weighed against where it is made. That's putting my money where my mouth is and doing my part. Even though all of that "Made in the USA" stuff has cost me more.

Ivoted for Trump. That's putting my money where my mouth is and when he's acting like an idiot or making stupid decisions you're damned right I'm going to have my say and I don't give a flying fuck who doesn't like it. It would bother me a lot less if I hadn't voted for him because then I wouldn't be partly responsible.

I just gave a four paragraph response and it's gone. I'll be back later and redo it on a bigger screen.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Nope. What I am not doing is focusing solely on one aspect and ignoring the rest, to include the consequences of any actions taken. "Already getting screwed" is a matter of opinion since I don't recall at any point in time another country twisting the US's arm and forcing it into a deal. We signed on for the shit, and we elected the people that did the signing. The DOES change the issue and the approach to solving it. Indian giver's were frown upon as far back as I can remember. You make a deal, you honor it. You want to change it? You negotiate a change. You negotiated a deal to begin with, right?

What if I tell the mortgage company I don't like their deal and I'm changing it? How does THAT end? What if I'm 13 states that no longer want to be part of the US and have every right to leave as freely as I joined and do so? How did THAT end?

In any other facet of life, what Trump is doing would be illegal. It isn't different just because it's Trump and it's the US.

Also, YOU keep ignoring the fact that the only difference getting screwed is WHO is taking it up the bobo. Sleight of hand doesn't work on me. Saying you're "saving this" while "that" is paying for it is changing one damned thing in the real picture. It's just a realignment of funds.

Deals change every day.

People rewrite mortgages every day to get a better interest rate.

Nothing is written in stone.

Yes we've had politicians sell us down the river, and they've done a damn good job of it, and I believe they did so because they could line their own pockets with cash and the hell with the American people and our economy. But why you have such a problem with a president that's trying to fix that is beyond me. I honestly perplexed.

[Kathianne]

Hmmm:

http://reason.com/blog/2018/07/23/tr...m_medium=email

Trump Claims That Trade War Only Risks 'The Bank's Money'

He's so, so wrong about that. But at least he's admitting a trade war won't be good or easy to win.

Eric Boehm|Jul. 23, 2018 11:20 am

...

Which brings me to President Donald Trump. In an interview that CNBC aired over the weekend, Trump tried to wave away the potential negative economic consequences of his trade war by suggesting that "we're playing with the bank's money."


As CNBC goes on to explain, the stock market is up 31 percent since Election Day 2016. Trump seems to believe that those gains give him the flexibility necessary engage in a trade war.


To paraphrase George Bailey: Mr. President, you're thinking of this place all wrong.


The notion that any losses incurred by a trade war won't hurt because we're only risking recent economic gains is a dangerous misunderstanding of how economies operate. That logic might work in one of Trump's casinos: win a few hands of blackjack, and it's easy enough to set aside your original chips and "play with house money," as the saying goes. But the president is forcing ordinary Americans to risk economic gains they might prefer to put to other uses.


Trump might measure the success of his trade war by the impact on the stock market, but that ignores the far more practical effects felt by workers and businesses from coast to coast. It ignores the jobs that could be shipped overseas to avoid tariffs, and the loss of jobs at businesses that simply can't compete with artificially higher costs for raw materials such as steel and aluminum. The administration's plan to slap tariffs on imported cars and car parts alone could reduce U.S. economic output by $59 billion, the Commerce Department was told at an administrative hearing last week.


Trump continues to escalate the trade war. On Friday, he said he's willing to impose tariffs on $500 billion worth of Chinese imports—in other words, just about all of them—after already hitting $34 billion of Chinese goods with tariffs earlier this year.


If that happens, the economic consequences of the trade war will outweigh the economic boost created by last year's tax cuts, according to a new analysis from The Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan think tank. "If all tariffs announced thus far were fully enacted, U.S. GDP would fall by 0.47 percent ($117.6 billion) in the long run, effectively offsetting one-quarter of the long-run impact of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act," write Tax Foundation analysts Erica York and Kyle Pomerleau. "Wages would fall by 0.33 percent and employment would fall by 364,786."


Just the bank's money? Hardly.


This isn't just an economic blunder; it's probably a political blunder too. After two years of touting economic growth and a rising stock market as proof that his administration is doing the right thing, it's odd to suggest that those gains are only collateral against future mistakes. And it's hard to imagine that voters will shrug off the costs of a trade war by saying, "Well, it was just the bank's money."

...

[aboutime]

Not that anyone will pay any attention to me...because I'm older, and don't know what I'm talking about. But, the president has told the entire WORLD. Not what many of us want to hear.
He has come out and finally had the BALLS to tell the rest of the world...The GREAT CHEATING of the WEAK U.S.A. is over.

Of course, we tend to be selfish, thinking a TRADE WAR, or TARIFFS on steel, and aluminum for other nations is a TERRIBLE THING. But, the truth is. The president would like those whining nations who have been cheating us for so long....to STOP all tariffs, and taxes...BOTH WAYS.

Many Americans...namely politicians want us the believe THE SKY IS FALLING because they hate the president, and everything he stands for. So, for some. TOUGH!
There is a method to the president's madness...which is actually the smartest thing any President has dared to do since I HAVE BEEN OLD ENOUGH TO READ.
Thankfully. The president doesn't listen to all of the complaints, and anti-Trumpers who would quickly put an end to any other man. TRUMP knows what he's doing. Politicians from around the World just hate it when HE PROVES THEY ARE WRONG, and CHEATING. Because THEY will lose money for their OVERFLOWING POCKETS, and he's gonna stop them. PERIOD.

[Black Diamond]

I don't know what Pete has to do with it, but simple math is simple math. We jack the tariff on steel and the rest of the World jacks its tariff's/boycotts our farm belt, WE are the losers. We artificially prop up one industry that can't fairly compete at the expense of an industry that can. And whatever you, Pete and the electorate have to do with it, almost ALL those farm belt states are red. For now.

ANd you're branching out. US steel isn't the sole nor even main cause of the auto industry going to shit. Inferior products at inflated prices, not to mention the aforementioned union overhead, killed the US-made auto market. It couldn't compete on the world market. US Steel was only part of the problem.

I don't feel any sympathy for companies that price themselves out of business. I'd say the major problem with ANY industry and trade is spoiled, American-arrogant fat cats who thought we were the be-all end-all post-WWII with ZERO thought given to the future and staying on the cutting edge of their industries. Now WE (the consumers) and the rest of the World are supposed to pay for it? There's NOTHING fair about that.

As an aside ... do you put your money where your mouth is? I've seen the questioned patriotism, and the "if you were a real American comments" (not naming names .. but where do YOU fall?

I'm anal as Hell and have boycotted foreign goods wherever possible/practical for years and years and YEARS. My truck's a GMC. My jeans are made at the Levi Strauss & Co factory right up the road on Acme Rd. My other jeans are Dickies, American made. My running shoes are New Balance and Brooks -- American made. My china isn't even from China. It was made in a pottery in Virginia we got when I was stationed there. My weight bar is made by Rogue Fitness USA in Ohio from US steel. It's better quality, but I paid the price of an entire weight set just for the Made in USA bar. I shop at the local grocery store rather than Wal Mart for both quality, and to support the local business. US owned.

I pick and choose my shit and every single thing IS weighed against where it is made. That's putting my money where my mouth is and doing my part. Even though all of that "Made in the USA" stuff has cost me more.

Ivoted for Trump. That's putting my money where my mouth is and when he's acting like an idiot or making stupid decisions you're damned right I'm going to have my say and I don't give a flying fuck who doesn't like it. It would bother me a lot less if I hadn't voted for him because then I wouldn't be partly responsible.

Damn this post is longer than I remember. Pete taunted me pre election about how I didn't understand electoral math or the electoral map. I know it pretty well. Well enough to understand trump needs Michigan, penn, or Wisconsin again next time or he's one and done. That might explain his trade policies you don't like. It might. Although he has been talking like this since the 1980s. The difference being in the 1980s it was Japan.

We are blue oval all the way. We have two ford pickups and a mustang convertible. At least you buy American I didn't know you could still get clothes made in USA. I thought they were all made in Indonesian sweat shops. Now I'll be a bigger horses ass and it's all your fault.