Forsaking permission of patient or family would be in line with getting people back to work even at the cost of deaths of vulnerable. If going to that level, one must assume an agreement with survival of the most productive, thus saving the resources for the young.
Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your reasoning for going with letting those folks die, without agreement regarding extraordinary means.
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
MIf the doctor or nurse let’s the old guy go, and moves on to the next (younger) virus patient without safety gear, they have the same risk of infection. Hence my comment before, why not just leave them all at the curb. It is not a shortage of safety gear that is driving the death panel discussions. It is possibly an upcoming shortage of ventilators or hospital availability in general.
And from my understanding, you don’t get this virus by touching someone. And hospital CPR is not generally mouth to mouth, so is there any more danger to resuscitation than with any medical procedure?
Do you think it is possible that very subconsciously, you aren’t too worried because you don’t have any risk factors?
I would sign a DNR for the usual reasons (brain dead, e.g.) but not for something I could potentially survive and live normally afterwards. Screw that.
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown
“Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
-Abbey
Well... I didn't think I addressed that issue. I was trying to be specific about the lack of personal protection for caregivers, and how I felt about them possibly condemning themselves to a death sentence to resuscitate someone. I could go over it all again but, there shouldn't be a need to be redundant.
The issue you stated above is an even more grave one I think. Something I'm not sure I know enough about to render an opinion, other than, what is the tipping point where we either all get back to work, or some of us get back to work, or none of us and just let our nation entirely implode? What do we do? Hard question to answer far as I'm concerned, but that time is coming, quick.
Well, I'm not discriminating by age. I'm referring to DNR for anyone, young, old, in between.
But you do have a point and I get it. If caregivers in a hospital don't have masks or gloves, then what are they doing coming in contact with ANYONE that's infected, for any reason, feed them, resuscitate them, whatever? You shouldn't even be there if you don't have the proper protection.
But yes, you can catch it from touching an infected person. You can catch it from touching something that an infected person touched. Contact surfaces is the #2 way the virus is spread.
Last edited by High_Plains_Drifter; 03-26-2020 at 01:36 PM.
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown
“Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
-Abbey
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown
“Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
-Abbey
If having the proper equipment available is the issue, than this conversation really is just a waste of time.
I thought the point that Abbey was making, which has been in the news for at least a few days, longer if one pays attention to Italy and other countries running ahead of us. The point being that doctors in Italy by circumstances-as they are locked down and staying shut-are forced by sheer numbers to make choices on who gets ventilators and even beds. Over a week ago some hospitals were refusing admission to anyone over 60, regardless of how sick.
Now we have the President getting antsy about the economy, for good reasons. However, he has even indirectly addressed the issue of the vulnerable, the cure shouldn't be worse than the problem. Dead older, weaker folks cannot be the chief concern. Younger, stronger people might get depressed and off themselves. That would be bad, very bad.
So, prioritizing resources may well necessitate kicking an older person off the ventilator or even just send them home with some well wishes and hopes. The young who are temporarily ill, need them. Odds are much better for and with them.
"The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown
“Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
-Abbey
Abbey, what did you think of the Falwell interview?
“You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock
I tried to post about it, but something about me quoting the video broke the thread. I think Jim has since fixed it.
I’ll try to reconstruct:
Thank you for the video. It sounds a lot better at Liberty than the news made it out to be if it’s just foreign students who truly have no where else to go. But I think they shouldn’t have the library open for students to go there, or any labs. All should be strictly online. And office hours shouldn’t be at all, not just voluntary.
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box - Author unknown
“Unfortunately, the truth is now whatever the media say it is”
-Abbey
From what I gather from other interviews with Falwell, all Office visits are done online during posted Office hours. I'm not sure how you do labs online without fully equipped labs being set up in each individual dorm room or off campus apartment. I agree on the library since nearly all research books, papers, journals either are or should be available online.
The moral collapse of a civilization. A once in a lifetime event.
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke