Sweden Chose Wrong, Brazil Followed

[Kathianne]

Not good:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...virus-response

Prognosis
Sweden Girds for Thousands of Deaths Amid Laxer Virus Response
By Niclas Rolander and Charles Daly
April 4, 2020, 5:42 AM MST

There are signs that the death rate in Sweden is growing faster than elsewhere in Scandinavia, raising pressure on the government to abandon its controversial hands-off approach in tackling Covid-19.

The Swedish experiment has drawn international bewilderment as schools, restaurants and cafes have remained open. And while other countries passed laws restricting movement, Sweden’s Prime Minister Stefan Lofven relied on the common sense of his fellow citizens to carry his country through the pandemic.

But after a week of sobering data, Lofven now seems to be striking a darker tone. In an interview published on Saturday by Dagens Nyheter, he warned that Sweden may be facing “thousands” of coronavirus deaths, and said the crisis is likely to drag on for months rather than weeks. Meanwhile, newspaper Expressen reported that his Social Democrat-led government may be seeking extraordinary powers to bypass parliament and force through a sterner response to the virus.

The number of Swedish deaths rose to 373 on Saturday, up 12% from Friday. That brings the rate per million in Scandinavia’s biggest economy to 36, compared with 29 in Denmark and 9 in Norway, where much tougher lockdowns are in place.

Sweden’s top epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, says the goal in his country, like everywhere else, is to “flatten the curve” to avoid overwhelming hospitals. As of Thursday, he said that curve is “starting to become somewhat steeper, but overall” remains “fairly flat.”

But Covid-19 comes with so many unknowns that Sweden’s approach has some of its own experts worried.

...

[Kathianne]

More:

https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2...-like-mistake/

Sweden’s Coronavirus Approach Is Starting To Look Like A Mistake
JOHN SEXTONPosted at 4:41 pm on April 9, 2020

The Swedish experiment continues to be one of the most interesting things happening in the world right now. Pretty much every other country in the world, including Sweden’s neighbors Denmark and Norway, have adopted similar types of government-ordered social distancing. But in Sweden, the country is merely asking people to be sensible and hoping that’s enough to slow the spread of the virus.


Anders Tegnell, the head epidemiologist at the semi-independent agency that is managing the Swedish response has denied that he is pursuing a herd immunity strategy but has previously said in an interview “We will not be able to control it in any other way.”


The Swedish response appears almost libertarian at first glance, but it isn’t based on trusting individuals so much as it is on trusting that most Swedes will do what the government recommends without being forced.


The government was clear, though, that Swedes should adopt the usual social distancing measures to flatten the curve. And experts told me the population typically trusts what officials say and abides by their guidelines, allowing officials not to have to impose strict measures.


Top Swedish officials say that two-way trust is paying off. “It is a myth that life goes on as normal in Sweden. Many people stay at home and have stopped traveling,” Sweden’s Minister of Health and Social Affairs Lena Hallengren told me. “There is no full lockdown of Sweden, but many parts of the Swedish society have shut down.”


In addition to this high level of trust in government, the Washington Post reports that “public health nationalism” has taken hold with many Swedes.


In the past few weeks, the country has experienced a bizarre nationalistic wave dubbed “public health nationalism” (”folkhälsonationalism”), which celebrates Sweden as an island of common sense in a sea of panic and resistance to science. According to this narrative promulgated by authorities and media alike, cultural exceptionalism — such as high public trust –– makes Sweden particularly well-equipped to manage the pandemic. When asked why Sweden’s strategy deviates from other countries’, Sweden’s influential former state epidemiologist Johan Giesecke quipped, “That is because everyone else is doing it wrong.” He went on to explain how he could be so confident: ”I think we will manage the epidemic without destroying the economy more than necessary. The absolutely most important thing is to protect the elderly from getting infected. I think we succeed quite well in that. It lies in the Swedish national character to do as one is told.”


And to be clear, the Swedish approach may still have some long term advantages. There simply isn’t enough data to draw conclusions at this point about what the trade-offs will be. It’s entirely possible that if we’re still locked in our homes three months from now and U.S. unemployment is above 30 percent, the Swedish approach may come to look like the wiser choice to some people.


But in the short term, it’s starting to look as if the Swedish approach will result in an increased death toll and overwhelmed hospitals, i.e. the very thing the U.S. and other countries are trying to avoid:


A head doctor at a major hospital in Sweden says the current approach will “probably end in a historical massacre.” He says healthcare workers at his hospital who have tested positive for the virus but are asymptomatic have been advised to continue working. He asked to remain anonymous because “it is frowned upon to speak of the epidemic or to go against the official vision” but said he felt a need to speak out from an “ethical and medical point of view.”


The Swedish legislature will meet this week to discuss whether tougher measures restricting business and travel should be implemented. Söderberg-Nauclér says it’s already too late to prevent chaos in Stockholm but that preventative lockdown measures could still be taken throughout other parts of the country.


“If they are right and we are wrong, I will open a bottle of champagne,” Söderberg-Nauclér says. She notes that, based on the modeling she’s seen, the healthcare system in Sweden will collapse if stricter measures are not adopted immediately. “But I will not give up the fight until the government shows us evidence for their strategy.”


A Swedish virologist told Vox, “I didn’t sign my informed consent for this experiment.” That’s really what this is: A nationwide experiment that we’re all watching play out in real time. The legislature may decide to clamp down this week and put an end to the experiment but it may already be too late to avoid a disaster. As of today, Sweden has 9,141 confirmed cases and 793 deaths. Denmark has 5,830 confirmed cases and 237 deaths.


This PBS report, published yesterday, gives some good insight into the Swedish approach including resistance to it from within Sweden:
video at site

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Sweden was powerless against their muslim invasion as well.

What a pathetic nation of sheep.

[LongTermGuy]

Sweden was powerless against their muslim invasion as well.

What a pathetic nation of sheep.

The Islamic Invasion of Politically Correct Sweden

https://www.khouse.org/enews_article/2014/2328/

[Kathianne]

Agree:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/2954433001/

Time to put China on lockdown for its dishonesty amid coronavirus crisis
China’s response was inept, dishonest and utterly inconsiderate of the world. We need to teach the Chinese government a lesson.
Glenn Harlan Reynolds

There are many lessons to be learned from the Wuhan coronavirus pandemic. But one is already clear: China needs to be isolated from the civilized world until its behavior improves. We are in the current situation, with deaths and economic devastation worldwide, because China handled this outbreak with its trademark mixture of dishonesty, incompetence and thuggery. Were China a more civilized nation, this outbreak would have been stopped early, and with far less harm, inside and outside of China.


As Marion Smith wrote in these pages on Sunday, China’s first response was to clamp down on reports of the then-new disease that had appeared in Wuhan. The brave doctor, Li Wenliang, who first reported the disease to fellow physicians was silenced by police. Chinese media reports of the disease were censored by the government. So were ordinary citizens reporting on social media.


Coronavirus coverup
According to U.S. intelligence agencies, China systematically deceived the world about the extent of the outbreak, lulling other nations into a false sense of security that delayed a response by weeks or even months.




As Smith writes: “Beijing denied until Jan. 20 that human to human transmission was occurring. Yet at the same time, Chinese officials and state-owned companies were urgently acquiring bulk medical supplies — especially personal protective equipment like masks and gloves — from Australia, Europe, and around the world. Put simply, Beijing hoarded the world’s life-saving resources while falsely claiming that people’s lives weren’t at risk.”




Marion Smith:Blame the Chinese Communist Party for the coronavirus crisis


And this is the most charitable account, based on China failing to deal with what was, at root, a naturally occurring disease outbreak. And it may have been naturally occurring. But people are increasingly entertaining the possibility that the COVID-19 virus was accidentally released by a Chinese virology lab in Wuhan.


That notion was once dismissed as a conspiracy theory, but it has since been discussed in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists and by uber-establishment Washington Post columnist David Ignatius. The talk is of an accidental release, not the deliberate deployment of a biological weapon — which makes sense, since few nations would release a bioweapon in their own heartland — but if it’s true it only makes the Chinese government look worse, though it perhaps explains their unwillingness to be forthcoming.


Chinese President Xi Jinping visits Hangzhou, in eastern China's Zhejiang Province, on March 31, 2020.
But wherever the virus came from, China’s response was inept, dishonest and utterly inconsiderate of the rest of the world. A competent, honest response would have placed the world on notice much earlier. A China that cared about the rest of the world would have halted flights abroad while this disease was spreading, instead of allowing its citizens to spread willy-nilly around the globe. (As Brian Kennedy writes: “China seems to have taken the position that if they were to suffer the coronavirus, so too was the United States and the rest of the world. What else is to explain the continuation of flights from China to the United States at the rate of some 20,000 passengers a day, until President Trump wisely shut them down?”)

[Drummond]

Sweden was powerless against their muslim invasion as well.

What a pathetic nation of sheep.

That's exactly right ... maybe even more so than you realise.

The Left-wing 'Revolution' has gone even further, in Sweden, than it has in the UK.

There, the Swedes have got to the point of having it as fundamental to their worldview that they 'must' obey their authorities and accept their 'wisdom'. The spirit of questioning has been essentially killed off there. The Almighty State says, 'Jump' ... the citizen asks about the height of the stratosphere.

.... so, if their authorities insist upon an approach that's a nonsense, that's far worse than its alternative, Swedes will not only not question it, but will obey diktat as though their lives depended on it (which, in this case, is no less than true).

This is nothing more or less than viewing the product of unrestrained Leftieism. A lesson - indeed, a LIFE lesson - against tolerating ANY degree of that political poison.

It can easily be, literally, a killer.

[Kathianne]

That's exactly right ... maybe even more so than you realise.

The Left-wing 'Revolution' has gone even further, in Sweden, than it has in the UK.

There, the Swedes have got to the point of having it as fundamental to their worldview that they 'must' obey their authorities and accept their 'wisdom'. The spirit of questioning has been essentially killed off there. The Almighty State says, 'Jump' ... the citizen asks about the height of the stratosphere.

.... so, if their authorities insist upon an approach that's a nonsense, that's far worse than its alternative, Swedes will not only not question it, but will obey diktat as though their lives depended on it (which, in this case, is no less than true).

This is nothing more or less than viewing the product of unrestrained Leftieism. A lesson - indeed, a LIFE lesson - against tolerating ANY degree of that political poison.

It can easily be, literally, a killer.

Well said. In reports they talk about the 'faith' of the people in the state and the state's faith in the people following.

[Drummond]

Well said. In reports they talk about the 'faith' of the people in the state and the state's faith in the people following.

Exactly.

This is one where we totally see eye-to-eye.

[tailfins]

Brazil has 18,000 Chinese Virus cases out of a 200+ million population and fewer than 1,000 deaths. President Bolsonaro is correct in preventing Brazil from becoming Venezuela by NOT shutting the country down and implementing socialism. At least Twatter is on the job hampering his communication to the people.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...nt-coronavirus

“What I have been hearing from people is that they want to work,” Bolsonaro said in one of the deleted videos. “Brazil cannot stop or we’ll turn into Venezuela,” he added.

Brazilians are an industrious, hard-working and fun-loving people. They have rejected socialism and have sense enough to make the necessary adjustments to their lives as individuals to manage the health risks.

[Drummond]

Brazil has 18,000 Chinese Virus cases out of a 200+ million population and fewer than 1,000 deaths. President Bolsonaro is correct in preventing Brazil from becoming Venezuela by NOT shutting the country down and implementing socialism. At least Twatter is on the job hampering his communication to the people.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...nt-coronavirus



Brazilians are an industrious, hard-working and fun-loving people. They have rejected socialism and have sense enough to make the necessary adjustments to their lives as individuals to manage the health risks.

Do you think that the British Conservative Party is Socialist ??

Their original direction was to encourage a 'herd immunity' effect, one where you'd get to the point that enough people both infected and then fully recovered would create a high enough percentage of the population to create that overall immunity effect.

As a scientific principle, it's a sound one. It would've worked. Only one problem: way too many people would have died from the virus before such a status quo was reached.

Do you agree with me that a major distinguishing factor marking out Conservatism as superior to Socialism, is its inbuilt respect for the individual ? Because to fully pursue the 'herd immunity' effect would've meant zero respect for those falling victim to it.

Boris Johnson was initially convinced, by his scientific staff, to go the 'herd immunity' route. But, his Party's sheer humanity overrode this .. and so, we have gone into lockdown, instead, choosing massive bailouts to temporarily fund 'everyday life' (or what currently passes for it).

It is the CONSERVATIVE way to care about the individual. It is the SOCIALIST way to take a path that has no room for individual caring.

Judge for yourself what all this says for the Brazilian leader ... as the death toll in his country will inexorably rise .... and even Brazil's hot climate won't help beyond a certain point ....

[tailfins]

Do you think that the British Conservative Party is Socialist ??

Their original direction was to encourage a 'herd immunity' effect, one where you'd get to the point that enough people both infected and then fully recovered would create a high enough percentage of the population to create that overall immunity effect.

As a scientific principle, it's a sound one. It would've worked. Only one problem: way too many people would have died from the virus before such a status quo was reached.

Do you agree with me that a major distinguishing factor marking out Conservatism as superior to Socialism, is its inbuilt respect for the individual ? Because to fully pursue the 'herd immunity' effect would've meant zero respect for those falling victim to it.

Boris Johnson was initially convinced, by his scientific staff, to go the 'herd immunity' route. But, his Party's sheer humanity overrode this .. and so, we have gone into lockdown, instead, choosing massive bailouts to temporarily fund 'everyday life' (or what currently passes for it).

It is the CONSERVATIVE way to care about the individual. It is the SOCIALIST way to take a path that has no room for individual caring.

Judge for yourself what all this says for the Brazilian leader ... as the death toll in his country will inexorably rise .... and even Brazil's hot climate won't help beyond a certain point ....

The voluntary and private sector discretionary shutdowns are already resulting in people going hungry. Hunger kills also.

[Drummond]

The voluntary and private sector discretionary shutdowns are already resulting in people going hungry. Hunger kills also.

This just tells me that insufficient provision is being made for the needy. There are holes in our coverage, here, too ... but our people are filling them to the best of their ability to.

The point we can agree on is that such handouts can't be sustained indefinitely ... the sooner 'normal' conditions return, the better (of course). But to try your best to cater for their needs is the most humane approach, by far.

[Kathianne]

This just tells me that insufficient provision is being made for the needy. There are holes in our coverage, here, too ... but our people are filling them to the best of their ability to.

The point we can agree on is that such handouts can't be sustained indefinitely ... the sooner 'normal' conditions return, the better (of course). But to try your best to cater for their needs is the most humane approach, by far.

@Drummond, he may be right about the cracks, but from everything I've been reading the schools are still feeding the children breakfasts and lunches, delivered in many cases or allow parent to pick up 4 days at a time. They are even feeding the two meals on weekends. In many cases, folks are saying, "No thanks, don't need these", so they are doubling or tripling up on those that do.

National Guard has been manning and supplying the food pantries, sending donations to other sites. They are getting food from US surplus.

Restaurants in large cities are doing 'Buy 1 and we'll give 1.' My son has been using those restaurants for deliveries several nights per week. Like myself, tipping at least 30%-he has more $$ than I.

In rural areas, the farmers are hurting, but giving the food away in local communities for people that need it.

I'm not certain where the starving hordes are.

[Drummond]

@Drummond, he may be right about the cracks, but from everything I've been reading the schools are still feeding the children breakfasts and lunches, delivered in many cases or allow parent to pick up 4 days at a time. They are even feeding the two meals on weekends. In many cases, folks are saying, "No thanks, don't need these", so they are doubling or tripling up on those that do.

National Guard has been manning and supplying the food pantries, sending donations to other sites. They are getting food from US surplus.

Restaurants in large cities are doing 'Buy 1 and we'll give 1.' My son has been using those restaurants for deliveries several nights per week. Like myself, tipping at least 30%-he has more $$ than I.

In rural areas, the farmers are hurting, but giving the food away in local communities for people that need it.

I'm not certain where the starving hordes are.

Your children are still attending schools ? Ours have been banned from doing so, as part of the containment effort.

We don't have a National Guard distributing food, or any military intervention of that kind occurring (- yet -). Instead, Universal Credit has been made far more widely available to claim for, allowing the purchase of food from money made available.

The effect on our supermarkets has been chaotic. Impossible, now, to order online for home delivery ... one chain is stopping new memberships, the others all have their delivery slots perpetually filled. Where I am ... supermarkets are increasingly badly stocked, BUT, my corner store is, if anything, BETTER stocked than usual. Also, some takeaway stores are still operating (selling cooked Indian, Turkish food & the like).

[Annoyingly, the local fish & chip shop is closed indefinitely. Likewise the local Chinese Takeaway .. because distancing rules were impossible to enforce in that shop.]

We're muddling along, is the point .. for now.

Likewise, we have no starving hordes. Some have been 'brought low' by relying on food banks ... but, generally speaking, and with a bit of effort, we can still get the food we need.

[Kathianne]

Your children are still attending schools ? Ours have been banned from doing so, as part of the containment effort.

We don't have a National Guard distributing food, or any military intervention of that kind occurring (- yet -). Instead, Universal Credit has been made far more widely available to claim for, allowing the purchase of food from money made available.

The effect on our supermarkets has been chaotic. Impossible, now, to order online for home delivery ... one chain is stopping new memberships, the others all have their delivery slots perpetually filled. Where I am ... supermarkets are increasingly badly stocked, BUT, my corner store is, if anything, BETTER stocked than usual. Also, some takeaway stores are still operating (selling cooked Indian, Turkish food & the like).

[Annoyingly, the local fish & chip shop is closed indefinitely. Likewise the local Chinese Takeaway .. because distancing rules were impossible to enforce in that shop.]

We're muddling along, is the point .. for now.

Likewise, we have no starving hordes. Some have been 'brought low' by relying on food banks ... but, generally speaking, and with a bit of effort, we can still get the food we need.

No school, many closed for the year. But, the schools are still preparing breakfast and lunches for the kids. Yes. Bus drivers are being paid in many districts to deliver the meals. As I said, many are also feeding on the weekend, which is not the norm.