Vaccinations - back and forth

[fj1200]

Hmm. OK. does it follow... based on the data... that the vaccine is SO effective that it will make HUGE ... or even a 25% or 25 FOLD... reduction in hospitalizations and deaths?
seems clear to me that it does not.
And deaths and hospitalizations are what everyone is really concerned about. We don't want people dying or extremely sick.
And the honest version of the chart seems to make it CLEAR that the vaccines are NOT doing that.
And scientifically speaking the chart does not make it clear that what's makes the small difference in deaths per hundred thousand is IN FACT the vaccine.

The actually numbers of people work out to 40 people dying out of 100,000 who got the vaccine, compared to 960 people out of the 100,000 who were not vaccinated.
And looking at the rate of infection it seems VERY clear that having VERY large numbers of infected does NOT translate into large numbers of deaths. Even without the vaccine.

Completely ineffective? maybe not. Very effective? no. Marginally effective? maybe.

How does it not based on the graphs provided? Reworking the graphs doesn't change the point. Your graph may show the relative difference between infection, hospitalization, and death but the original graph proves? the claim that there are lower instances of each. They didn't use fake numbers unless you're alleging that as well.

people can make their own determination HOW MUCH risk they are willing to take. Some people like to play it super safe and will gladly take the short term apparent .92% less chance of death by individual/mass vaccinations. And along with that ASSUME the various vaccines will carry ZERO serious long term negatives or deaths.

But when i compare potential risk of covid-19 death to the unknown risk of experimental vaccine issues I don't see the .92% bump shown in this chart as significant enough. Especially since 98+% of all people who get covid recover... with natural antibodies that likely last a lifetime.

Bottom line the vaccine promoters seem to be OVER SELLING the product by a HUGE margin FJ.
If it were a stock would you put all your money into it? And tell your family to do the same? It's a New product/stock launch, unknown long term gains or losses, other similar stocks have crashed and burned.
And alternatives are available that seem similar in returns, safer buys, been bringing in revenue for 40 and 100 years?

So when the EUA ends and it's fully approved will much of the resistance melt away? From how I see it there is far less risk in getting the vaccine than not and every thread that's been started recently, and there have been a lot, you'd think it's going to be a self induced apocalypse.

Is it being oversold? I surely know it's being sold hard but the resistance from the other side has been moreso. Hanging arguments on miniscule fine print in studies, etc. used in vaccine research for example. The examples have been less than impressive IMO.

I agree that people can make their own choices but some of the arguments are ridiculous.

Awful is one thing.
But deliberately misleading is another. At a glance the CDC chart makes looks like the vaccine has saved hundreds of thousands of lives. It's a FALSE impression. Then it put's a misleading point on it by saying that vaccine causes a "25 FOLD reduction" in deaths etc.. It's a falsehood.
This is the same kind of BS double speak the gov't uses when it talks about "Budget CUTS" when it really means it was RAISED LESS than some previous version of the budget. With politicians and U.S. budget office sadly we've come to expect this kind of BSery, this type of deception, but this is the CDC. They are supposedly trying to help keep us healthy and honestly informed. But they are frankly lying FJ.

As stated earlier the real numbers of deaths are 40 compared to 960... out of 100,000. In what world is that a "25 FOLD" reduction FJ?
The people are real and each death is a tragic horror show, but factually and statistically speaking CDC are lying (and the MSM repeaters who have staff that can see though the BS just as well as I) and the vaccine is no where near as effective as advertised.

That's what the chart tells me.
Am i misreading it in some way. Can you honestly say that the vaccines look EXTREMELY effective in saving lives and preventing hospitalizations? So much so that they deserve the hype they've been given?

Reworking numbers doesn't create validation of what you see as a falsehood. But yes, I think we're better off with them.

But to dispel my apparent shill cred if you want the vaccine, get the vaccine. If you don't want the vaccine, don't get the vaccine. Make your choices.

[revelarts]

How does it not based on the graphs provided? Reworking the graphs doesn't change the point. Your graph may show the relative difference between infection, hospitalization, and death but the original graph proves? the claim that there are lower instances of each. They didn't use fake numbers unless you're alleging that as well.



So when the EUA ends and it's fully approved will much of the resistance melt away? From how I see it there is far less risk in getting the vaccine than not and every thread that's been started recently, and there have been a lot, you'd think it's going to be a self induced apocalypse.

Is it being oversold? I surely know it's being sold hard but the resistance from the other side has been moreso. Hanging arguments on miniscule fine print in studies, etc. used in vaccine research for example. The examples have been less than impressive IMO.

I agree that people can make their own choices but some of the arguments are ridiculous.



Reworking numbers doesn't create validation of what you see as a falsehood. But yes, I think we're better off with them.

But to dispel my apparent shill cred if you want the vaccine, get the vaccine. If you don't want the vaccine, don't get the vaccine. Make your choices.

1st of all I didn't "rework numbers" i just put them in their FULL context. All of the numbers together. And did not isolate them for a false effect.

But you didn't really answer my questions.
And my point wasn't that they used false numbers they simply made them look "25 fold" BETTER than they actually are.
That is a LIE.
Looking at anything under a good magnifying glass makes it LOOK bigger. Not clearly saying that it is not really that big is a Lie.

As stated earlier the real numbers of deaths are 40 compared to 960... out of 100,000. In what world is that a "25 FOLD" reduction FJ?

But Ok FJ, you think the vaccines make a big difference, Could you please tell me what numbers in that CDC chart give you that impression?

[revelarts]

I think that goes without saying but we've many fat and/or old people in this country who are not in any way going to be able to build up their immune system to be able to fight it.
I'm merely saying this is an option, a seemingly effective option, that doesn't stand up to all the conspiracy driven paranoia surrounding it.

Well my concerns aren't conspiracy driven. they are FACT based.
the basic facts are that the vaccines do not seem to be that effective at stopping deaths. And the long term effects are completely unknown. And based on the demographics of disease I'm not in the most high risk range of dying from covid-19. A less than 95+% chance.

I'm not sure what paranoid conspiracies you think are driving people away.

I'll will say this though, seems like every month we find that the "officials", U.S. and abroad, are caught in some lie, misrepresentation, backtracking double-talk or extreme miscalculation. And are aided in the squelching of unwanted facts and voices by their friends in the MSM and Social Media. How many times does this have to happen before it's OK for reasonable people start to ask if the official info really is trust worthy?
It's made me FAR MORE suspicious of the motives and possible other agendas than I was at the beginning of the pandemic. So now i've got a lot more reasons NOT to trust the official narratives until I take a 2nd, 3rd and 4th look.

And c'mon FJ, who's really been pumping up paranoia surrounding covid-19? It's The MSM, they have been on a year plus Orgy of FEAR Mongering about covid-19. With Death Counts! Infection counts! Hospitals are OVERFLOWING! (but they're mostly not), Hundreds of gut wrenching Interviews with families of the deceased, Daily updates on various "OUTBREAKS!" in all parts of the world, Breathless "experts" daily warning everyone of how DEADLY it all is. And how we can "STAY SAFE". With equally breathless sighs and "Thank you Dr" replies from news people. And ALL preaching with a Fundamentalist fervor about "trusting the vaccines" and "trusting 'the Science'" Vaccines, Mask and Lockdowns, the holy trinity are THE ONLY real WAY of true salvation for us all. And if you don't believe it then you are an evil (or idiotic) heretic whose going to damn us all. And we must mandate your allegiance to the trinity or you'll be outcast/shunned from those redeemed by vaccination in society.

THAT'S paranoia.

[Gunny]

@Gunny

I'm fighting for each individual to make their own choices based on as much info as is available. In my opinion that's paramount to freedom.

I think we need to understand that each person made their choice based upon their own circumstances. In the beginning I was posting info to get it out there to help people make their choice. I am not trying to convince anyone what to do.

I really trust my medical professionals and not one of them has told me to get the shot. I might regret it one day but for now I'm OK with my decision.

I haven't told a single person what I think they should or should not do when it comes to this topic. I have stated pretty much exactly as your comment: it's an individual choice. My comments are general, not aimed at any one person when it comes to the big picture.

If the right is som concerned about losing freedom, then why is the right constantly focused on something the left is telling them to instead of focusing on the few remaining freedoms we have? While everyone's caught up in fighting over a virus, the TRUE deadly virus -- the left -- is taking away the means to freedom. It's destroying our individuality by selling us out to the World. Right in front of our faces and no one on the right is paying any attention. So caught up in their individual little trees they can't see the forest fire heading their way.

I love my freedom. WHat's left of it. I REALLY loved the freedom we used to have. It's been chipped away, using the same, tired old strategy and tactics that no one on the right seems capable of snapping to -- distract, divide, accuse and conquer.

Meanwhile, the Dems in collusion with same old RINOs have spent $1 trillion with $3 more trillion in the works. They're moving on. They get their way on voting rights they take away our choice in so-called "leadership". No freedom there. They get their way on the border, and same ending. They're stacking the deck and what is the right doing?

Arguing about a freakin immunization, masks and lockdowns. When the left gets control of everything, as we can see, they don't care whet the People think and your "freedom" is whatever they say at their leisure.

People are going to have to sacrifice short term "freedoms" in order to collectively win ALL our freedoms back. No individuals are going to "win freedom" against a collective and the the left currently has the right exactly where it wants it. The left is united in taking everything while the right is not collectively focused enough to save itself.

At the moment, this is a lost cause.

[fj1200]

1st of all I didn't "rework numbers" i just put them in their FULL context. All of the numbers together. And did not isolate them for a false effect.

But you didn't really answer my questions.
And my point wasn't that they used false numbers they simply made them look "25 fold" BETTER than they actually are.
That is a LIE.
Looking at anything under a good magnifying glass makes it LOOK bigger. Not clearly saying that it is not really that big is a Lie.

As stated earlier the real numbers of deaths are 40 compared to 960... out of 100,000. In what world is that a "25 FOLD" reduction FJ?

But Ok FJ, you think the vaccines make a big difference, Could you please tell me what numbers in that CDC chart give you that impression?

I meant reworked the graphs but I also said reworked the numbers later. My apologies. I acknowledged the differences in relative numbers but each of those numbers shows a decrease in each metric; 8 times/25 times less. None of those numbers to me are false or a lie. From 960 to 40 is a 25 fold reduction no matter the scale of the graph. Comparing it to 100,000 is where people can decide the relative risk.

So long story short any of those numbers you posted make the case for me.

[fj1200]

Well my concerns aren't conspiracy driven. they are FACT based.
the basic facts are that the vaccines do not seem to be that effective at stopping deaths. And the long term effects are completely unknown. And based on the demographics of disease I'm not in the most high risk range of dying from covid-19. A less than 95+% chance.

I'm not sure what paranoid conspiracies you think are driving people away.

I'll will say this though, seems like every month we find that the "officials", U.S. and abroad, are caught in some lie, misrepresentation, backtracking double-talk or extreme miscalculation. And are aided in the squelching of unwanted facts and voices by their friends in the MSM and Social Media. How many times does this have to happen before it's OK for reasonable people start to ask if the official info really is trust worthy?
It's made me FAR MORE suspicious of the motives and possible other agendas than I was at the beginning of the pandemic. So now i've got a lot more reasons NOT to trust the official narratives until I take a 2nd, 3rd and 4th look.

And c'mon FJ, who's really been pumping up paranoia surrounding covid-19? It's The MSM, they have been on a year plus Orgy of FEAR Mongering about covid-19. With Death Counts! Infection counts! Hospitals are OVERFLOWING! (but they're mostly not), Hundreds of gut wrenching Interviews with families of the deceased, Daily updates on various "OUTBREAKS!" in all parts of the world, Breathless "experts" daily warning everyone of how DEADLY it all is. And how we can "STAY SAFE". With equally breathless sighs and "Thank you Dr" replies from news people. And ALL preaching with a Fundamentalist fervor about "trusting the vaccines" and "trusting 'the Science'" Vaccines, Mask and Lockdowns, the holy trinity are THE ONLY real WAY of true salvation for us all. And if you don't believe it then you are an evil (or idiotic) heretic whose going to damn us all. And we must mandate your allegiance to the trinity or you'll be outcast/shunned from those redeemed by vaccination in society.

THAT'S paranoia.

I didn't say your concerns were conspiracy driven; that was a general comment. And I'll grant you that the messaging on one side is over the top but you'll have to grant me that some of the rantings on the otherside are over the top. Have you seen some of the other threads going on around here?

You want me to be critical of lockdowns and over the top MSM I will be... without going overboard. But I'll also be critical where I choose to be. The problem with this and so many other things it's you're with me or against with zero middle ground. That's concerning to me.

[revelarts]

I didn't say your concerns were conspiracy driven; that was a general comment. And I'll grant you that the messaging on one side is over the top but you'll have to grant me that some of the rantings on the otherside are over the top. Have you seen some of the other threads going on around here?

You want me to be critical of lockdowns and over the top MSM I will be... without going overboard. But I'll also be critical where I choose to be. The problem with this and so many other things it's you're with me or against with zero middle ground. That's concerning to me.

Sure, there's no doubt that some of the Push back is over the top.
When people see themselves getting stepped on they may say some crazy things. (some may scream "they're trying to kill me!")
But here's the thing to consider here, the crazy push-back is not promoted as FACT 24/7 by ANY MSM, or ANY Social Media or ANY Official bodies.
While ALL of the over the tops crap that comes from the "officials" IS promoted as FACT 24/7... until it goes down the memory hole and new official "facts" are sent our way.

And the reasonable responses ...and even hard questions... are NOT heard at all except on ALT media and short burst that break through the Social Media Blockade of info.
Phd's epidemiologist, Medical Drs and nurses of all stripes, blacklisted and banned.
Health Representatives of National gov'ts and State govt's, even vaccine injured people blacked-outed or attacked for daring to have alternative or - dissenting opinions and actions.

the Over the Topness (?) of the "Official stories" goes far beyond just a few random loud mouth covid-deniers that are shouting into the hurricane wind of the mainstream narrative.

And yes I think the "you're with me or against" BS is a distraction. But again the OFFICIAL side has set it up or at least play it as such, and keeps the ball rolling by putting ever more pressure on the so-called other side to conform or else.
No room for "doubters" we're all gonna die if you don't believe and submit to alla.. cough... I mean... vax masks and lockdowns.

And Of Course, you have a right to point out the flaws you see in the push back, we all need to examine all the available voices and point out the crap. But lets not pretend that those that are pushing back are in the power position here. The Officials and the MSM seem certain they are DOING GOOD (or for $$$ & pwer?)... so they are not very concerned about the bulldozing the 'unclean' opposition for the greater good.
They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.

[fj1200]

Sure, there's no doubt that some of the Push back is over the top.
When people see themselves getting stepped on they may say some crazy things. (some may scream "they're trying to kill me!")
But here's the thing to consider here, the crazy push-back is not promoted as FACT 24/7 by ANY MSM, or ANY Social Media or ANY Official bodies.
While ALL of the over the tops crap that comes from the "officials" IS promoted as FACT 24/7... until it goes down the memory hole and new official "facts" are sent our way.

And the reasonable responses ...and even hard questions... are NOT heard at all except on ALT media and short burst that break through the Social Media Blockade of info.
Phd's epidemiologist, Medical Drs and nurses of all stripes, blacklisted and banned.
Health Representatives of National gov'ts and State govt's, even vaccine injured people blacked-outed or attacked for daring to have alternative or - dissenting opinions and actions.

the Over the Topness (?) of the "Official stories" goes far beyond just a few random loud mouth covid-deniers that are shouting into the hurricane wind of the mainstream narrative.

And yes I think the "you're with me or against" BS is a distraction. But again the OFFICIAL side has set it up or at least play it as such, and keeps the ball rolling by putting ever more pressure on the so-called other side to conform or else.
No room for "doubters" we're all gonna die if you don't believe and submit to alla.. cough... I mean... vax masks and lockdowns.

And Of Course, you have a right to point out the flaws you see in the push back, we all need to examine all the available voices and point out the crap. But lets not pretend that those that are pushing back are in the power position here. The Officials and the MSM seem certain they are DOING GOOD (or for $$$ & pwer?)... so they are not very concerned about the bulldozing the 'unclean' opposition for the greater good.
They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.

One could argue all day about that though I won't... except to say that each side drives the other voices more and more extreme IMO.

Since i've started responding to some of the vaccine opposition recently I haven't seen anything that really stands up to even cursory examination. I really don't know what to say other than people should be able to make their own choices but there's no conspiracy. I know people at the CDC and they do good work and they care about what they're doing and the world is better for it. Even the COVID response. My friend there can agree that the CDC messaging is awful but that doesn't make the whole suspect.

[revelarts]

One could argue all day about that though I won't... except to say that each side drives the other voices more and more extreme IMO.

Since i've started responding to some of the vaccine opposition recently I haven't seen anything that really stands up to even cursory examination. I really don't know what to say other than people should be able to make their own choices but there's no conspiracy. I know people at the CDC and they do good work and they care about what they're doing and the world is better for it. Even the COVID response. My friend there can agree that the CDC messaging is awful but that doesn't make the whole suspect.

well, i'm not sure what you've seen. but it seems based on the small articles and charts I've shown you that you're very willing to give the CDC the FULL benny of the doubt. .. even in their messageing.
But you say the "messaging" has been poor. I'm not sure we mean the same thing even in saying that.
IMO the CDC and other official bodies often presents info that implies:
• One level of danger for the Covid but the real level of danger is less and FAR less for some groups.
• One level of protection via lockdowns and mask but the level of protection is FAR FAR LESS. And for lockdowns were, initially, completely unknown and untried. (and unconstitutional) and eventually provably ineffective.
• One level of protection and safety from the New experimental vaccines when the level of protection is debatable and the level of safety is less than "messaged" ("reasonable" "expected" risk were understated in the "messaging") and the level of testing FAR less than adequate for the level distribution. Especially in the case pregnant woman and children. And the possible the long term negative effects completely disregarded and assumed minor or "acceptable". By well meaning officials.

If i'm reading you right you seem to think some folks believe the WHOLE CDC is out to get us. And all evil and corrupt. This is the same kind of mistake some folks make when someone points out problems with police or policing. The "I know many police officers and they are GOOD people! 99.9% . Why are U condemning ALL police?! " defense.

If that's the case then you're missing all the serious points and overlooking the real problems. No serious person thinks EVERYONE in the police or the CDC or the NIH or the WHO or all the Pharma companies are just out to get us. But there may be some specific and systematic problems and options that go beyond "messaging" .
And just because people BELIEVE they are doing good doesn't mean are. Many well meaning drugs, treatments and solutions have been promoted over the years that have turned out to be harmful to various degrees. Drugs and vaccines completely pulled from the market. Approved by the FDA as "safe and effective" but later found to harmful or deadly.

These problem issues around covid and the vaccines are brought up by epidemiologist, leaders of medical depts, Heads of Gov't health depts, Drs and nurses in the field, former Pharma executives, Phd researchers, statisticians, vaccine injured people and more.
But the official "messaging" won't ALLOW them serious consideration.
Just lumps them in with the most irrational over the top Alex Jones fan.

Everyone is told to TRUST the official messaging FJ. No matter how bad it is or how many lives it may harm or who says anything that tries to correct the "messaging" or even put the crappy "messaging" into a proper context.

Personally, I'd rather not be collateral damage in the Officials and CDC's good fight to help us all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Sure, there's no doubt that some of the Push back is over the top.
When people see themselves getting stepped on they may say some crazy things. (some may scream "they're trying to kill me!")
But here's the thing to consider here, the crazy push-back is not promoted as FACT 24/7 by ANY MSM, or ANY Social Media or ANY Official bodies.
While ALL of the over the tops crap that comes from the "officials" IS promoted as FACT 24/7... until it goes down the memory hole and new official "facts" are sent our way.

And the reasonable responses ...and even hard questions... are NOT heard at all except on ALT media and short burst that break through the Social Media Blockade of info.
Phd's epidemiologist, Medical Drs and nurses of all stripes, blacklisted and banned.
Health Representatives of National gov'ts and State govt's, even vaccine injured people blacked-outed or attacked for daring to have alternative or - dissenting opinions and actions.

the Over the Topness (?) of the "Official stories" goes far beyond just a few random loud mouth covid-deniers that are shouting into the hurricane wind of the mainstream narrative.

And yes I think the "you're with me or against" BS is a distraction. But again the OFFICIAL side has set it up or at least play it as such, and keeps the ball rolling by putting ever more pressure on the so-called other side to conform or else.
No room for "doubters" we're all gonna die if you don't believe and submit to alla.. cough... I mean... vax masks and lockdowns.

And Of Course, you have a right to point out the flaws you see in the push back, we all need to examine all the available voices and point out the crap. But lets not pretend that those that are pushing back are in the power position here. The Officials and the MSM seem certain they are DOING GOOD (or for $$$ & pwer?)... so they are not very concerned about the bulldozing the 'unclean' opposition for the greater good.
They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.

They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.

The most irritating part is when what you just cited is totally ignored by people so they can vilify the messenger-and do so for nefarious reasons.
Sometimes do so for personal reasons based upon animosity.
Now any person doing that should be judged by their obvious motive and not applauded as some intelligent and fair-minded person.
The current dem/leftist propaganda and cheerleaders are at full force ion the internet- and as usual operate to try to shut down anything that points to the serious negatives in regards to the vaccine- or should I say -in regards to the massive experiment that is going on.. and being conducted without any concern to the level of death and serious injuries it is most definitely causing!
Myself, I have ben attacked every place I have presented the truth about this vaccine.
And to be perfectly blunt about that- I am damned tired of it and have absolutely zero respect for those that have attacked me.
Be it noted-- not one has ever attacked in any way, when face to face I speak about it...
That to me points to a very solid conclusion...
And I speak to many people face to face about at this stage perhaps at least a hundred or more.
When they can not== hide-- they are more reasonable and the interchange never causes ac disturbance of any kind..
That to= is very , very telling.--Tyr

[fj1200]

well, i'm not sure what you've seen. but it seems based on the small articles and charts I've shown you that you're very willing to give the CDC the FULL benny of the doubt. .. even in their messageing.
But you say the "messaging" has been poor. I'm not sure we mean the same thing even in saying that.
IMO the CDC and other official bodies often presents info that implies:
• One level of danger for the Covid but the real level of danger is less and FAR less for some groups.
• One level of protection via lockdowns and mask but the level of protection is FAR FAR LESS. And for lockdowns were, initially, completely unknown and untried. (and unconstitutional) and eventually provably ineffective.
• One level of protection and safety from the New experimental vaccines when the level of protection is debatable and the level of safety is less than "messaged" ("reasonable" "expected" risk were understated in the "messaging") and the level of testing FAR less than adequate for the level distribution. Especially in the case pregnant woman and children. And the possible the long term negative effects completely disregarded and assumed minor or "acceptable". By well meaning officials.

If i'm reading you right you seem to think some folks believe the WHOLE CDC is out to get us. And all evil and corrupt. This is the same kind of mistake some folks make when someone points out problems with police or policing. The "I know many police officers and they are GOOD people! 99.9% . Why are U condemning ALL police?! " defense.

If that's the case then you're missing all the serious points and overlooking the real problems. No serious person thinks EVERYONE in the police or the CDC or the NIH or the WHO or all the Pharma companies are just out to get us. But there may be some specific and systematic problems and options that go beyond "messaging" .
And just because people BELIEVE they are doing good doesn't mean are. Many well meaning drugs, treatments and solutions have been promoted over the years that have turned out to be harmful to various degrees. Drugs and vaccines completely pulled from the market. Approved by the FDA as "safe and effective" but later found to harmful or deadly.

These problem issues around covid and the vaccines are brought up by epidemiologist, leaders of medical depts, Heads of Gov't health depts, Drs and nurses in the field, former Pharma executives, Phd researchers, statisticians, vaccine injured people and more.
But the official "messaging" won't ALLOW them serious consideration.
Just lumps them in with the most irrational over the top Alex Jones fan.

Everyone is told to TRUST the official messaging FJ. No matter how bad it is or how many lives it may harm or who says anything that tries to correct the "messaging" or even put the crappy "messaging" into a proper context.

Personally, I'd rather not be collateral damage in the Officials and CDC's good fight to help us all.

Where does me saying "their messaging has been awful" equate to them getting the "FULL benny of the doubt"?

I don't think that serious people believe that but some people who think they're serious believe it. But we can go round n round and I understand where you're coming from and I don't necessarily disagree things today are defined by the extremes. The anti-COVID people are winning this one.

[fj1200]

The most irritating part is when what you just cited is totally ignored by people so they can vilify the messenger-and do so for nefarious reasons.
Sometimes do so for personal reasons based upon animosity.
Now any person doing that should be judged by their obvious motive and not applauded as some intelligent and fair-minded person.
The current dem/leftist propaganda and cheerleaders are at full force ion the internet- and as usual operate to try to shut down anything that points to the serious negatives in regards to the vaccine- or should I say -in regards to the massive experiment that is going on.. and being conducted without any concern to the level of death and serious injuries it is most definitely causing!
Myself, I have ben attacked every place I have presented the truth about this vaccine.
And to be perfectly blunt about that- I am damned tired of it and have absolutely zero respect for those that have attacked me.
Be it noted-- not one has ever attacked in any way, when face to face I speak about it...
That to me points to a very solid conclusion...
And I speak to many people face to face about at this stage perhaps at least a hundred or more.
When they can not== hide-- they are more reasonable and the interchange never causes ac disturbance of any kind..
That to= is very , very telling.--Tyr

That's where you're just wrong. I cited that point but almost the entire rest of it is wrong too. From what I've seen any "truth" you've posted has either been easily disproved takes on the research done or delusion-based rants. Neither of those win any interweb points.